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Freesat's take on the EPG move from E28A
I emailed freesat with the following query:
I am worried about the effect on Freesat of the imminent closure of the EutelSat 28A satellite at 28.5ºE, given that the Freesat EPG and operational software are carried on that satellite. As I understand it, it isn't a simple case of transferring the frequency across to the Astra 2E or 2F satellites because the signal characteristics are different. Therefore I imagine a software upgrade will be required to all Freesat boxes to get them to look elsewhere for their default transponder.
I assume this upgrade will have to be in the form of an 'over-the-air' download, which in turn means that all boxes will have to be left switched on or in standby when the download takes place. Can you tell me what actions Freesat has in place to manage this change, especially in the event that some users might not be at home at the time?
I received this reply this morning:
Hello Mr Sullivan, thank you for your email.
Please rest assured any changes to satellite frequencies are communicated and often have no effect on the Freesat service broadcasting in the UK. Your box will automatically pick up a OAD when it is switched on. If your box does not pick this up automatically you can scan for them manually.
Regards
I have to say I'm not wholly reassured by that answer!
I am worried about the effect on Freesat of the imminent closure of the EutelSat 28A satellite at 28.5ºE, given that the Freesat EPG and operational software are carried on that satellite. As I understand it, it isn't a simple case of transferring the frequency across to the Astra 2E or 2F satellites because the signal characteristics are different. Therefore I imagine a software upgrade will be required to all Freesat boxes to get them to look elsewhere for their default transponder.
I assume this upgrade will have to be in the form of an 'over-the-air' download, which in turn means that all boxes will have to be left switched on or in standby when the download takes place. Can you tell me what actions Freesat has in place to manage this change, especially in the event that some users might not be at home at the time?
I received this reply this morning:
Hello Mr Sullivan, thank you for your email.
Please rest assured any changes to satellite frequencies are communicated and often have no effect on the Freesat service broadcasting in the UK. Your box will automatically pick up a OAD when it is switched on. If your box does not pick this up automatically you can scan for them manually.
Regards
I have to say I'm not wholly reassured by that answer!
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Comments
That said, I cannot conceive that the issue will turn out to be nothing than a damp squib and that the right people (Not the Public-facing bods) have done the right thing. Whatever it might be.
The SES-Astra satellites at 28.2E don't support the existing home transponder parameters.
11428.00 H DVB-S QPSK 27500 2/3
Apparently, the frequency (11428 H) currently used on Eutelsat 28A is not mirrored on the SES birds at 28.2º. Presumably this will require a software update so that the STBs and TVs automatically search for the new frequency once the move takes place. This will require software updates by all freesat STB and TV manufacturers and needs to be completed before 28A is relocated (although when and where to is not yet known). I anticipate that a lot of viewers may incur a loss of service if the switch is not carried out methodically although most will still be able to temporarily access their channels in non-freesat mode if they have problems. Presumably Freesat will run both frequencies in parallel until most viewers have switched and will provide adequate publicity (especially important for non-internet users).
I am surprised that Freesat are being so unforthcoming regarding the possible repercussions.
And we can't depend on channel 999 for up-to-date information!
I've yet to see hard evidence beyond Forum chatter that this is the case.
Also, 11428 is just the nominal centre frequency of the Transponder currently being utilised on 28A.
Personally, I can't imagine this issue to be anything but a non-problem, regardless of whether the Stream can be migrated seamlessly or not.
28A seems destined for the graveyard.
Freesat box owners will not lose the epg during any migration period. The complete epg data is also delivered along with all the channels on the epg. Channel line up updates and the ability to reset the boxes requiring postcode validation will not work either.
I can't imagine that they've actually hardcoded the frequency in there. It's probably picked up from info carried in the epg data that is broadcast alongside the programming on other transponders.
Seems extremely unlikely, most likely is that it's part of the loader software, without access to the home transponder you simply cannot download the database required to validate your postcode. If you cannot get the home transponder, then you can't get any further.
So it would kill the box then?
Why unlikely? All the postcode validation process has to do is find *any* valid freesat compatible signal which would then contain a snippet saying which frequency to tune into for the full database info.
Just because this might happen before the receiver has scanned for all available signals and so would be invisible to the user doesn't make it impractical. Seems much more reasonable to me than hardcoding in a particular transponder.
It doesn't work like that.
When you do a reset or a freesat tune, the box downloads the current postcode allocation table database from the home transponder. It then makes the appropriate channels visible and the ones that you shouldn't have hidden. The database is then deleted from the box. If you install the Custom Firmware on a Foxsat-hdr and the channel editor package you can make the hidden ones visible. Result is these now appear in the epg with full data and can be recorded like any other freesat channel.
No - there are loads of cases where Freesat box owners have lost contact with the Freesat home transponder (dish moved slightly for instance). They are unaware of this until either they notice a channel change/additional channel added hasn't happened. When they attempt a freesat tune to rectify the tune fails due to failure of the postcode validation check. - See above post.
What happens with a box that is left powered off during the transition period of the two satellites and misses a s/w update maybe necessary to deal with this situation. The owner returns to the box, finds it not working properly, tries to obtain the s/w update and it's not available OTA. Is that a likely scenario?
Pure speculation of course, I would guess the same procedure as used when a channel moves to a different transponder will be used. ie a period of dual working, after that period the software will need to be reflashed from a download source if the box hadn't upgraded. As the two frequencies will be different there is no reason dual working can't exist for a long period.
That seems reasonable to me.
They, that run freesat, will be able to imagine the uproar, if it didn't happen seamlessly.
I may be wrong, but I though a firmware update was offered, on first switch on, after a missed firmware update
David
It varies with the box and the software.
Current version of Foxsat-hdr updates firmware during overnight housekeeping with no information displayed.
G2 boxes update the firmware when on, they must regulary poll for new software. It doesn't take long for a g2 box to update following the ota start. Channel line up changes work the same way.
http://community.freesat.co.uk/t5/Help-and-advice/Home-Transponder/td-p/14758
If it is such a big problem as that wouldnt freesat have got the UK government to halt what was going on last Autumn with the SES vs Eutelsat trials and say that Eutelsat is vital to British TV and should remain?
then SES Astra would have been fighting freesat and the UK government too!
Are we sure that the Astra craft are that inflexible they couldn't operate one transponder on a non-standard frequency? After all they have been used for various uses on non-DTH transponder plans in the past.
A fortuitous accident of history (i.e. a larger than usual gap between the frequency bands of Astra 1A and Astra 1B) means that instead of the usual 30MHz between the centre frequencies of neighbouring transponders on the same polarisation there is actually 40MHz between the centre frequencies of transponder 15 (just 7MHz below the Freesat one) and it's upper neighbour of Tp 17
i.e. on Astra 1 the following transponders are used
TP 13 (26MHz) = 11.391H (i.e. 11378 - 11404)
4MHz Gap
TP 15 (26MHz) = 11.421H (i.e. 11408 - 11434)
19MHz Gap
TP 17 (26MHz) = 11.464H (i.e. 11453 - 11477)
Assuming they can operate a 32MHz transponder in the low band (something that the most unknown quantity, but which looks like it may be possible with the new craft - they are defiantly able to operate the 26MHz transponders in the high band) then you could use the following transponder plan
TP 13 (26MHz) = 11.391H (i.e. 11378 - 11404)
8MHz Gap
TP 15 (32MHz) = 11.428H (i.e. 11412 - 11444)
9MHz Gap
TP 17 (26MHz) = 11.464H (i.e. 11453 - 11477)
Therefore Astra would be able to operate as many transponders as normal with just one non-standard one, and also continue to operate the Freesat home transponder with it's original properties.
Does this prove anything though? Could it be perhaps checking a few other transponders too to see if they know where the Freesat home transponder is and then trying 11.428 again as that is what they have been told and failing. The Sky home transponder would be an obvious choice as a second place to try and find the current Freesat NIT and using that to find the home transponder. (Of course, the real question then becomes have all the manufactures actually ensured this works!).
Does this prove anything though? Could it be perhaps checking a few other transponders too to see if they know where the Freesat home transponder is and then trying 11.428 again as that is what they have been told and failing. The Sky home transponder would be an obvious choice as a second place to try and find the current Freesat NIT and using that to find the home transponder. (Of course, the real question then becomes have all the manufactures actually ensured this works!).[/QUOTE]
If that was the case then a freesat retune would work, it does not. If you don't have a signal from 11428 H you cannot get past the postcode check. The box will work fine as a freesat box until you try a reset to factory defaults. You cannot then get past the postcode validation and then cannot use the box as a freesat box until reception of the home transponder is regained.
If the service was duplicated why isn't it listed on Kingofsat or other satellite databases ?
http://en.kingofsat.net/sat-eurobird1.php