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Are there any Labour voters who would not vote Labour if....
koantemplation
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they gave us a referrendum on staying in the EU?
Surely they should understand that by giving the voters a choice, they are going to get more votes than not?
It is like the Liberal elite think the 'little people' need to be told what to think.
It is the same mistake they made with joining the Iraq war, telling people what to think rather than giving them a choice.
They really don't trust the voters to make a good choice on the EU.
Surely they should understand that by giving the voters a choice, they are going to get more votes than not?
It is like the Liberal elite think the 'little people' need to be told what to think.
It is the same mistake they made with joining the Iraq war, telling people what to think rather than giving them a choice.
They really don't trust the voters to make a good choice on the EU.
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Highly unlikely, where would the Labour Party officials get their cheap nannies and gardeners from?
As a Europhile the offer of a referendum is simply an irrelevance to me, and if anything I'm a bit concerned that the British public could sleepwalk toward exit if given a referendum but without there being a balanced campaign.
Personally I don't understand Labour voters who are anti-EU. If you are anti-EU you shouldn't vote for a party that's supposedly both socialist and pro-EU. The EU is the modern embodiment of socialism.
I do absolutely hate this centrist, fence-sitting rubbish though. Ed Miliband should grow some balls and just come out and declare the above openly and make the case for Europe. Let the naysayers move to UKIP.
I pretty much agree with that, although EM has clearly stated that Labour would hold a referendum if there was a major transfer of power to the EU.
I am certainly in favor of staying in, forget the free movement of people my major concern is what would happen to our employment laws and human rights if Ukip or the Tory hard right got their way?
I have seen what Ukip's spokesman for 'small and medium businesses' thinks of our current employment rights, before it was hastily taken down from his website of course, and it was bloody terrifying.
I would strongly advise any Labour voter who values our hard won employment rights to at least wait until Ukip actually produce a manifesto or at least some policies before committing to change to Ukip.
However I have now come around to the opinion that I wish Labour would hold an in/out referendum, Mainly because the pro EU voices are being drowned out by the anti voices, something which always happens when people want to change something while those who don't want to change are usually less vocal.
I also think that it would give the pro EU side the chance to put their case and to do so fairly with a balanced campaign where both sides get an equal opportunity to put their case to the people, instead of the current situation where the 'out' side are making all the noise and getting most of the attention, which tends to give a false impression of public opinion,
I think after a fair and balanced campaign the 'out' shouters could find themselves as disappointed as the pro independence Scots.
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danielhannan/100290038/is-the-democratic-left-finally-turning-against-the-eu/
I would suggest that history begs to differ....
I'm one of those people and have voted Labour since 1973 (Lib Dem a couple of times as the best 'Not Tory' chance) until the last GE when I chose not to vote. My approach to the EU is with the late Tony Benn:
"My view of the EU has always been not that I am hostile to foreigners but I am in favour of democracy. I think they are building an empire and want us to be part of that empire, and I don't want that."
"When I saw how the European Union was developing, it was very obvious what they had in mind was not democratic. In Britain, you vote for a government so the government has to listen to you, and if you don't like it you can change it."
I oppose a United States of Europe. If in some other reality the Labour Party offered a set-in-stone referendum, and allowed voices like mine in their ranks to be heard, I would vote Labour instead of the UKIP protest vote.
Yes - its the endless despising of the British people that rather irritates me. The EU didn't give us free education, the NHS, trade unions, state pensions - the British people did by voting for it.
Of course the best way to deliver lower wages and fewer employment rights is to have an uncontrolled excess supply of new labour when you already have millions on the dole. And LibLabCon intend to do nowt to address that.
Two very good points.
Only because the public don't trust them.
But would it hurt Labour to give people a choice?
They don't have to be anti EU, they can still give the other side of the story.
It is the lack of choice that is the problem.
That's fair enough but I still don't understand why you consider yourself to be a Labour supporter in that case.
The bottom line of socialism is all about forming highly centralised world governments of the people.
Europe is far more democratic than the UK alone anyway. It always makes me laugh that people consider the EU undemocratic, but our FPTP elections somehow much more democratic. A 'choice' between three identical, idiot centrists isn't democracy, and the sooner you and others realise this the better.
The fact we have a House of Lords, is, again, a massive flaw in our democracy yet you think the European Union is the undemocratic thing in our lives?
Britain is highly undemocratic, and it has nothing to do with the EU.
You can see why some left-wingers were keen in the past, the EU concept promised a lot.
Now of course it's the Conservative party who love the EU.
A clue as to what this EU is really all about. I mean, what kind of thing must the EU really be that David Cameron is keen?
I don't know how much you know about individual European countries, but most of then have far more corruption than the UK. Their democracies' parliaments might tend to be more proportional, however, they're certainly not as directly democratic as the UK as constant coaltion governments are designed upon what the politicians want as opposed to what the people want.
There's a reason why we're not in the Euro and the majority of other EU nations are. There's also a reason why our economy is growing whilst the Eurozone's is still declining. Those reasons are called democracy where the government is accountable to the electorate. Proportional Representation, despite its attractively named intention, is far less representative than the direct, cut and dry, and accountable democracy provided by First Past The Post.
Soo.. Sell maybe £100m of property to pay off some part of the £67,000m deficit. And then probably have to pay rent or lease some back
I think you have an incredibly selective view of Europe - focusing on places like Poland and Greece.
Arguably I have have a selective view - but I don't see any issues with corruption in most Northern and Western EU countries.
The EU alone is, clearly, irrelevant. Countries are either democratic or they are not and I know I'd much rather be in Germany, The Netherlands or Scandinavia from the point of view of democracy and corruption.
Britain is riddled with corruption, we just don't call it 'corruption', we call it 'business as usual'.
From small town councils to the City of London everybody here is just greedy and self-serving. There is a much greater sense of community, socialism and altruism in most Northern/Western EU countries - and dare I say it even in more Eastern ones, even if the central government is a bit rotten.
We live in a global economy now which is increasingly being run by corporations. Whether we are run by Brussels or Westminster our democracy is just an illusion. A referendum is just a ploy to keep the masses docile whilst the real power is retained in the same way.
Even if we exit Europe the corporations will just adjust and find another way to run things. They already have a Plan B in place.
I agree but that isn't the premise of the question.
I just don't understand why Labour don't offer a referendum as it is a win win situation for them.
Yet if they don't offer one, then those who would like to vote Labour but want a referendum have Hobson's choice.
Is it really? You seem to be ignoring the signs, as it can no longer be taken for granted that FPTP means no coalitions. Given the drop in support for the two major parties, coalitions may well be the future, whichever form of voting we have. In which case we may as well move to PR.
And with FPTP in the past, we didn't actually get what "the people want". We got what a minority of people wanted, albeit the largest minority.
I agree. I don't see what they would have to lose.
It would not change my own vote (If Labour opted for a Referendum).
But I think they should stick, because:
1. Stating that you believe that we should remain in the Eu is a valid and honorable position to take.
2. It may turn out to be a clever position in Political terms
3. There is Zero chance of Britain leaving the Eu IMO.
4. Even if the vote was held this month...right now.... (when we are arguably in a lull which precedes part 2 of the Euro Crisis.....when we have not yet heard the case from Business which I think will be overwhelming) I would expect a vote for Stay In.
5. A referendum is not a trivial matter. It would be a huge matter, and the cost of funding both sides of the campaign would be huge. (See Scotland Referendum)
But what about Democracy? How many years is it since we had a say?
Well......I am taking into account that there is a General Election just 5 months away.
Lib Dems have proved nothing but Cameron's puppets and are unelectable because of that. They had a chance in government but blew it by being just tories in disguise.
Was going to vote Labour as I've found myself swinging more left wing, but it's UKIP for me and my family simply on the Europe and immigration issues which are the 2 major issues over all others. Labour for me can't be trusted on these issues still. They still want is in Europe despite the UK getting constantly a bad deal and I don't believe their commitment on immigration.
Their housing policy of building all over the countryside to accommodate all these new people is also horrific. Britain needs to preserve it's green spaces and rural heritage. Nothing is more important than that.
Labour are unelectable as a party for my family because of their views on Europe, multicultural society (which as a whole doesn't work in my opinion due to differing cultural and religious beliefs- nothing racist there), and un-trustable policies for immigration.
Voting Ukip won't do anything about our multicultural society, which is here to stay. It might just help with getting a referendum, or it might rule it out altogether if Ukip takes votes from the Tories. Can understand why you're doing it though.
I suspect it is the unions & the London liberal elite who seem to be running Labour that don't want a referendum. Maybe Labour should copy UKIP in having their HQ outside London.