glad she is recognised as a nominee definitely! without her songwriting the world would be a very different place...a place i would not like to imagine...come on M!
That's great but is she a 'songwriter' in the technical sense or just a lyricist?
She's written some brilliant lyrics but I was under the impression that the music was written by her collaborators so she is a co writer writing the lyrics but not the music thus only responsible for writing part of the song not the whole thing which is what I thought songwriters did.
So imo good as she is she only qualifies for part of an award not all of it.
The nomination will span her whole career. As she has been listed as co-writer on all of her albums since True Blue that is what it covers.
Tbh its about time. The usuals will say Madonna has never written a song in her life but her style is very distinctive. So as co-writers come and go that distinctive style has always remained. I don't know how her talents for writing can even be disputed.
It maddens me that her songwriting talent can be disputed...n what way? she is a very talented lyricist.....usually the co-writer is the producer mainly because she always seems to need "back up" voices to see/hear if she is doing the right thing...a second voice of opinion as it were...truthfully the majority of her songs could be ehr solely practically.
As HEUS said she has a distinctive writing style and production style...you can hear a pattern across her albums definitely...which also i argue why the co=writers/co-producers she works with dont have the same spark when they work with other people later down the line...its not the same impact!
So yeah she deserves every recognition for her songwriting talent...just because its co-written doesnt mean its not the whole song shes done...the majority she has crafted all from scratch...so yeah she every bit deserves a full award and recognition for this role and we all know it.
It also annoys me how wrong people get it when they think "the producers/talent she hires does all the work" other way around Madonna does ALL the work...and she makes the producers work to her vision....which is what the majority...in factEVERY person she has worked with the past 35 years have credited her time in the studio, live shows...everything every intricate detail of crafting songs and recording them...the Shep Pettibone diaries i adore reading, i loved the way Mirwais spoke of Madonna....Stuart Price and Orbit have been open about their studio times/recordings together....Pat Leonard and Bray praise every session they have done...you know? and i feel thats what i miss with MDNA...that structure and pattern there somewhat...but you still feel it a bit at least.
Its not like she is like ANY other "Po pDiva" out there...Madonna has never been that field...she has been above that field for so long...she is that fine line between Pop Artist and Rock & Roll icon...ad i love that
That's great but is she a 'songwriter' in the technical sense or just a lyricist?
She's written some brilliant lyrics but I was under the impression that the music was written by her collaborators so she is a co writer writing the lyrics but not the music thus only responsible for writing part of the song not the whole thing which is what I thought songwriters did.
So imo good as she is she only qualifies for part of an award not all of it.
Or am I incorrect?
lyricists bernie taupin and sir tim rice have both been inducted, so i guess they were considered "songwriters" in the technical sense, but i cant help but think this could open a can of worms amongst music snobs at large (no offence intended, of course).;)
there is nothing to suggest she might actually be inducted, but nevertheless the nomination alone will be music to the ears of certain individuals with word documents in place to paste all over the internet in mocked raged responses.:rolleyes: its possible of course, her nomination is in part meant to cause a stir and to ensure mass press attention, it wouldn't be the first time her name has been used for such purposes.
That's great but is she a 'songwriter' in the technical sense or just a lyricist?
She's written some brilliant lyrics but I was under the impression that the music was written by her collaborators so she is a co writer writing the lyrics but not the music thus only responsible for writing part of the song not the whole thing which is what I thought songwriters did.
So imo good as she is she only qualifies for part of an award not all of it.
Or am I incorrect?
She has five solo writing credits on her debut album, and has written a lot of songs on guitar and even piano and synth, which leads me to believe she does write the music herself. I would say the reason why she's credited as a co-writer on the vast majority of her songs is because she uses a lot of electronica and may not be as technically proficient when working with that (and even then, Stuart Price said she's a very good producer). People don't give her enough credit as a songwriter/musician, because she considered herself a visual artist as much as a musician.
Recent posts would suggest that Madonna is considered to be a songwriter then?
Maybe it's time she wrote some stuff on her own without her collaborators then? Now that would be interesting.
I was never questioning her talent though, she's a good at what she does and has written some great lyrics and I do believe that all her co writers/producers have helped make her songs the classics they are.
And if Taupin and Rice are in the HoF then maybe M should be too.
I also think some of the melodies Madonna has contributed to her songs has made them the classics they are too. Some examples, 'You'll see' melody by Madonna, so says David Foster her co-writer. Deeper and Deeper, melody by Madonna............the bridge in into the groove, melody by Madonna..............SHE DOESN'T JUST WRITE LYRICS.
I remember reading an interview about Into the groove, the producer said something was missing from the song, it wasn't quite right. It needed something, Madonna walks up to the mike and creates the bridge melody.......'live out your fantasy.......and hey presto the song was complete. It took the song to another level IMO.
Recent posts would suggest that Madonna is considered to be a songwriter then?
Maybe it's time she wrote some stuff on her own without her collaborators then? Now that would be interesting.
I was never questioning her talent though, she's a good at what she does and has written some great lyrics and I do believe that all her co writers/producers have helped make her songs the classics they are.
And if Taupin and Rice are in the HoF then maybe M should be too.
That'd be great, I agree.
I think (and I'm not accusing you of this, by the way) that there is a certain amount of misogyny when discussing female singers in terms of the amount of work they do creatively - people like Bjork, MIA and even Patti Smith have all confessed to feeling as though people treat them with less respect because they think, maybe not even consciously, that there must be a man behind them doing the heavy lifting. Because of the nature of what Madonna does and how she expresses herself, this is doubled.
I'm not understating the impact her producers have made - Stephen Bray was essential in forming her musical style, Patrick Leonard was essential in making her more musically sophisticated, Shep Pettibone challenged her writing skills and concept of song form (''Secret Garden'' being the great example), William Orbit and Miriwais provided the sonic influence for her ''spiritual'' years and re-introduced her presence in dance music and Stuart Price brought out a more playful side to Madonna we had seen little of since the '80s. She's worked with other producers such as Nile Rodgers, Reggie Lucas, the Bedtime Stories crew, the Hard Candy crew and the MDNA crew, but they were more important in terms of maintaining her mainstream presence rather than a creative one.
Recent posts would suggest that Madonna is considered to be a songwriter then?
Maybe it's time she wrote some stuff on her own without her collaborators then? Now that would be interesting.
I was never questioning her talent though, she's a good at what she does and has written some great lyrics and I do believe that all her co writers/producers have helped make her songs the classics they are.
And if Taupin and Rice are in the HoF then maybe M should be too.
i do agree with you there and it would be interesting to have at least have one new song written and produced by her entirely. after 30 years in the business i am sure she is more than capable of this and it would send a clear message to the people that doubt her abilities (again, i am not suggesting that you have with this post or any other), providing the song was good of course.:o
i can assure you the links i provided are correct in regards to rice and taupin, but like i said previously, the nomination doesn't necessarily mean she will be inducted.:)
speaking of sole writing...i would adore it if she solely directed her videos too...i mean she has such talent and most of her videos are co-directions anyway...she has a great visual style she just always seems to want to need a back up there to support that...which is where she is i nthe studio...i mean i reckon if she was alone in the studio...every instrument, synth, keyboard, keytar, symbol, drum available she would utilise and come up with something great all by herself definitely...with the right time locked away in there she would come out with some genuinely amazing material .
i mean basically that is what the majority of her collaborators hav said in production...but she always seems to need that extra voice to say "yes lets take it there or, no this will do" .
But i reckon she will soon enough she has a great skill and more than worthy of all the credit she gets for her writing and production .
Why does she have to write and produce a song by all herself to show she has talent? There are lots of male artists who are praised for their songwriting and they don't write songs all by themselves or play everything themselves. I think she likes collaborating with other people and having their input. It's good to hear other people's opinions and not be so isolated and self involved. She doesn't have to prove anything to anybody. Lots of people have loved her music over the years and can see she's a great songwriter. If it was just other people and nothing to do with her, she wouldn't have lasted that long. As she has often said it's not about getting other people's approval, but about being an artist on your own terms. If she wants to write with other people. I see nothing wrong with that. I think it would be cool if she did the opposite. If she wrote songs with an actual band rather than just one producer as she often does. I think the interplay of different personalities and musical ideas leads to the best music, not one person doing everything by themselves with no input from others.
I think we've now established that that Madonna is in fact a songwriter not just a lyricist and therefore merits a place in the songwriters HoF so thanks for all your input.
Why does she have to write and produce a song by all herself to show she has talent? There are lots of male artists who are praised for their songwriting and they don't write songs all by themselves or play everything themselves. I think she likes collaborating with other people and having their input. It's good to hear other people's opinions and not be so isolated and self involved. She doesn't have to prove anything to anybody. Lots of people have loved her music over the years and can see she's a great songwriter. If it was just other people and nothing to do with her, she wouldn't have lasted that long. As she has often said it's not about getting other people's approval, but about being an artist on your own terms. If she wants to write with other people. I see nothing wrong with that. I think it would be cool if she did the opposite. If she wrote songs with an actual band rather than just one producer as she often does. I think the interplay of different personalities and musical ideas leads to the best music, not one person doing everything by themselves with no input from others.
Yeah, i meant the enter the studio by herself with every instrument available as a hypothetical idea..not "she should do it" just meaning she ahs the talent to bring it all together and make some incredible material solely...so by having extra pairs of hands on standby...having Bray, Leonard, Pettibone, Price, Mirwais, Orbit, Benitez, Rodgers, Betts acros her time....it has allowed to follow a cohesiveness and style to her art as well as her usual traemarks.
Although MDNA didnt have a cohesive flow...it did showcase some of her trademarks all there too so like...ven with a tighter schedule to stick to she still manages to make her stamp regardless of who else she writes with . agreed!
She doesn't have to but it would be nice if she did as it would show her haters what she's capable of.
We say she doesn't have to prove herself but there are people out there who feel she has alot to prove.
and the person i quoted here would be a good example of someone that posts these opinions all over the internet.
i agree, she doesn't have to write and produce a song entirely by herself, but some fans would appreciate that level of intimacy from her and no fan is being dismissive of her talents by saying that.:)
Looking over her songwriting credits ... It is uncommon for a musician to be the key songwriter. Co- songwriters are common place. What's impressive is that most of the Madonna songs are written by her and a.n.other (Orbit, Leonard, Bray, Prince or Pharell Williams or whoever) which would suggest that she is hands on the songwriting process. Do you real think the likes of Prince, Williams and Orbit would give away royalties and ownership so easily unless she did contribute significantly?
It is clear when a singer who earns a songwriting credit has a minimal contribution when a majority of their songs include 4 or more co writers. A team has created the songs and then taken them to the singer.
Lourdes has a music recommendation for us on her clothing blog. It's the singer named Banks. People say Lourdes is causing Madonna to do less mature more teenage stuff, but Lourdes actually has really cool sort of indie taste.
What do you all think? I could actually see Madonna doing something like this. It's kind of downtempo moody R&B with a little bit of electronica. It would be a great direction for her.
This poster you quoted has at least half a dozen accounts under different usernames all for the purpose of dissing Madonna and her talents.
not too mention the many dressing downs they attempt to give the madonna fans with almost every post.:rolleyes: none of those posts can be taken completely seriously really when you consider they just recycle the same post over and over, hoping that no one will notice.:o
not too mention the many dressing downs they attempt to give the madonna fans with almost every post.:rolleyes: none of those posts can be taken completely seriously really when you consider they just recycle the same post over and over, hoping that no one will notice.:o
Yes this person is very rude about Madonna's fans making very derogatory comments.
And we do indeed notice because all these posts even though they are posted under different usernames carry the same message in the same style and follow the same pattern, because it's one poster with multiple ds accounts!
Yes this person is very rude about Madonna's fans making very derogatory comments.
And we do indeed notice because all these posts even though they are posted under different usernames carry the same message in the same style and follow the same pattern, because it's one poster with multiple ds accounts!
they are branching out of ds too, which was partly the reason why spoke up, because this person is posting the same messages on other forums.:eek: very strange behaviour and you would think they would change the wording or layout at least slightly.:o
how very on topic...credit to a dear friend of mine for finding it...check this out...recent interview with Pat Leonard
The legendary Patrick Leonard, talking to Roger Friedman on showbiz411.com, discussing the process of his work with Madonna.
"She put me on the map, I’m grateful. I’m one of those people behind the curtain. If she hadn’t sung those songs, no one would have heard them. She’s made it possible for me to do what I’m doing now."
Their process was simple - the article continues - he wrote the music, and brought it to Madonna. She would supply the lyrics and offer changes in the music to suit her. "She’d refine it,"Leonard says. "You give her a track, she sings the melody. She's very very talented. One doesn't exist without the other. She always showed up and she was always completely involved. I miss her, actually."
They haven't written together since 1997. Would he like to do it again? "Absolutely, she writes a lot with deejays now." - Patrick Leonard
Very much the issue with "right now"...i mean Madonna has made DJs/Remixers/Underground Cub musicians really flow well with the lyrics/emotion/concepts see - Mirwais, Stuart Price, Shep Pettibone, Andre Betts and William Orbit.
I would aore a union of these guys again...interesting him saying again how he would create the music melodies and send ideas through to Madonna and snippets and the music to her and the direction she wants and she writes the lyrics to the rhythms and re-produces it with him to suit the mood...a genuinely brilliant process...which i guess is again why Like a Prayer was so personal it stemmed from these sessions...and that is so beautiful to hear and read from him.
And again the issue i have too...Bennassi, Solveig....its all very contemporary "DJ" you know? i mean Beautiful Killer is...well it is beautiful....but Orbit provided so many "familiar" sounds on MDNA...as well as co-producing with Bennassi or Demo Crew (actually pretty great those guys are) and Jean Baptiste which kinda lacked the flow and thus the issues i have with it all.
The natural progression and styles there is what i love...i dont have sisues with her collaborating with "DJs" necessarily as she has made defining artistic moments with them in the past...see the formers there...but its the ones that focus heavily on the beat and less on the melodies, messages and hooks and a cohesive pattern is therefore lost i feel.
Very on topic and interesting interview....my ideal album 13 would be a reunion of M + Leonard and have Blood Orange on production with them...maybe have/bring Frank Ocean, Janelle Monae, Beth Ditto on board too to really shake stuff up if duets/vocals additions are necessary for the themes as i reckon these artists wil l"add" rather than be there for commercial value. You know?
Comments
That's great but is she a 'songwriter' in the technical sense or just a lyricist?
She's written some brilliant lyrics but I was under the impression that the music was written by her collaborators so she is a co writer writing the lyrics but not the music thus only responsible for writing part of the song not the whole thing which is what I thought songwriters did.
So imo good as she is she only qualifies for part of an award not all of it.
Or am I incorrect?
Tbh its about time. The usuals will say Madonna has never written a song in her life but her style is very distinctive. So as co-writers come and go that distinctive style has always remained. I don't know how her talents for writing can even be disputed.
As HEUS said she has a distinctive writing style and production style...you can hear a pattern across her albums definitely...which also i argue why the co=writers/co-producers she works with dont have the same spark when they work with other people later down the line...its not the same impact!
So yeah she deserves every recognition for her songwriting talent...just because its co-written doesnt mean its not the whole song shes done...the majority she has crafted all from scratch...so yeah she every bit deserves a full award and recognition for this role and we all know it.
Its not like she is like ANY other "Po pDiva" out there...Madonna has never been that field...she has been above that field for so long...she is that fine line between Pop Artist and Rock & Roll icon...ad i love that
lyricists bernie taupin and sir tim rice have both been inducted, so i guess they were considered "songwriters" in the technical sense, but i cant help but think this could open a can of worms amongst music snobs at large (no offence intended, of course).;)
there is nothing to suggest she might actually be inducted, but nevertheless the nomination alone will be music to the ears of certain individuals with word documents in place to paste all over the internet in mocked raged responses.:rolleyes: its possible of course, her nomination is in part meant to cause a stir and to ensure mass press attention, it wouldn't be the first time her name has been used for such purposes.
She has five solo writing credits on her debut album, and has written a lot of songs on guitar and even piano and synth, which leads me to believe she does write the music herself. I would say the reason why she's credited as a co-writer on the vast majority of her songs is because she uses a lot of electronica and may not be as technically proficient when working with that (and even then, Stuart Price said she's a very good producer). People don't give her enough credit as a songwriter/musician, because she considered herself a visual artist as much as a musician.
Maybe it's time she wrote some stuff on her own without her collaborators then? Now that would be interesting.
I was never questioning her talent though, she's a good at what she does and has written some great lyrics and I do believe that all her co writers/producers have helped make her songs the classics they are.
And if Taupin and Rice are in the HoF then maybe M should be too.
I remember reading an interview about Into the groove, the producer said something was missing from the song, it wasn't quite right. It needed something, Madonna walks up to the mike and creates the bridge melody.......'live out your fantasy.......and hey presto the song was complete. It took the song to another level IMO.
That'd be great, I agree.
I think (and I'm not accusing you of this, by the way) that there is a certain amount of misogyny when discussing female singers in terms of the amount of work they do creatively - people like Bjork, MIA and even Patti Smith have all confessed to feeling as though people treat them with less respect because they think, maybe not even consciously, that there must be a man behind them doing the heavy lifting. Because of the nature of what Madonna does and how she expresses herself, this is doubled.
I'm not understating the impact her producers have made - Stephen Bray was essential in forming her musical style, Patrick Leonard was essential in making her more musically sophisticated, Shep Pettibone challenged her writing skills and concept of song form (''Secret Garden'' being the great example), William Orbit and Miriwais provided the sonic influence for her ''spiritual'' years and re-introduced her presence in dance music and Stuart Price brought out a more playful side to Madonna we had seen little of since the '80s. She's worked with other producers such as Nile Rodgers, Reggie Lucas, the Bedtime Stories crew, the Hard Candy crew and the MDNA crew, but they were more important in terms of maintaining her mainstream presence rather than a creative one.
i do agree with you there and it would be interesting to have at least have one new song written and produced by her entirely. after 30 years in the business i am sure she is more than capable of this and it would send a clear message to the people that doubt her abilities (again, i am not suggesting that you have with this post or any other), providing the song was good of course.:o
i can assure you the links i provided are correct in regards to rice and taupin, but like i said previously, the nomination doesn't necessarily mean she will be inducted.:)
i mean basically that is what the majority of her collaborators hav said in production...but she always seems to need that extra voice to say "yes lets take it there or, no this will do"
But i reckon she will soon enough
Yeah, i meant the enter the studio by herself with every instrument available as a hypothetical idea..not "she should do it" just meaning she ahs the talent to bring it all together and make some incredible material solely...so by having extra pairs of hands on standby...having Bray, Leonard, Pettibone, Price, Mirwais, Orbit, Benitez, Rodgers, Betts acros her time....it has allowed to follow a cohesiveness and style to her art as well as her usual traemarks.
Although MDNA didnt have a cohesive flow...it did showcase some of her trademarks all there too
She doesn't have to but it would be nice if she did as it would show her haters what she's capable of.
We say she doesn't have to prove herself but there are people out there who feel she has alot to prove.
and the person i quoted here would be a good example of someone that posts these opinions all over the internet.
i agree, she doesn't have to write and produce a song entirely by herself, but some fans would appreciate that level of intimacy from her and no fan is being dismissive of her talents by saying that.:)
This poster you quoted has at least half a dozen accounts under different usernames all for the purpose of dissing Madonna and her talents.
It is clear when a singer who earns a songwriting credit has a minimal contribution when a majority of their songs include 4 or more co writers. A team has created the songs and then taken them to the singer.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=naMvm2DUKiE
What do you all think? I could actually see Madonna doing something like this. It's kind of downtempo moody R&B with a little bit of electronica. It would be a great direction for her.
not too mention the many dressing downs they attempt to give the madonna fans with almost every post.:rolleyes: none of those posts can be taken completely seriously really when you consider they just recycle the same post over and over, hoping that no one will notice.:o
Yes this person is very rude about Madonna's fans making very derogatory comments.
And we do indeed notice because all these posts even though they are posted under different usernames carry the same message in the same style and follow the same pattern, because it's one poster with multiple ds accounts!
they are branching out of ds too, which was partly the reason why spoke up, because this person is posting the same messages on other forums.:eek: very strange behaviour and you would think they would change the wording or layout at least slightly.:o
The legendary Patrick Leonard, talking to Roger Friedman on showbiz411.com, discussing the process of his work with Madonna.
"She put me on the map, I’m grateful. I’m one of those people behind the curtain. If she hadn’t sung those songs, no one would have heard them. She’s made it possible for me to do what I’m doing now."
Their process was simple - the article continues - he wrote the music, and brought it to Madonna. She would supply the lyrics and offer changes in the music to suit her. "She’d refine it,"Leonard says. "You give her a track, she sings the melody. She's very very talented. One doesn't exist without the other. She always showed up and she was always completely involved. I miss her, actually."
They haven't written together since 1997. Would he like to do it again? "Absolutely, she writes a lot with deejays now." - Patrick Leonard
Very much the issue with "right now"...i mean Madonna has made DJs/Remixers/Underground Cub musicians really flow well with the lyrics/emotion/concepts see - Mirwais, Stuart Price, Shep Pettibone, Andre Betts and William Orbit.
I would aore a union of these guys again...interesting him saying again how he would create the music melodies and send ideas through to Madonna and snippets and the music to her and the direction she wants and she writes the lyrics to the rhythms and re-produces it with him to suit the mood...a genuinely brilliant process...which i guess is again why Like a Prayer was so personal it stemmed from these sessions...and that is so beautiful to hear and read from him.
And again the issue i have too...Bennassi, Solveig....its all very contemporary "DJ" you know? i mean Beautiful Killer is...well it is beautiful....but Orbit provided so many "familiar" sounds on MDNA...as well as co-producing with Bennassi or Demo Crew (actually pretty great those guys are) and Jean Baptiste which kinda lacked the flow and thus the issues i have with it all.
The natural progression and styles there is what i love...i dont have sisues with her collaborating with "DJs" necessarily as she has made defining artistic moments with them in the past...see the formers there...but its the ones that focus heavily on the beat and less on the melodies, messages and hooks and a cohesive pattern is therefore lost i feel.
Very on topic and interesting interview....my ideal album 13 would be a reunion of M + Leonard and have Blood Orange on production with them...maybe have/bring Frank Ocean, Janelle Monae, Beth Ditto on board too to really shake stuff up if duets/vocals additions are necessary for the themes as i reckon these artists wil l"add" rather than be there for commercial value. You know?
ANyways just thought i would share it here too