Sky giving an utterly damning verdict of Dr Nicks performance today
Already pointing out he has a FB account and twitter and despite what he said in court has been retweeing stories about the Case. Guessing Nel Cant let this go when the court returns so I wonder Are We going to see the Side of M'lady people say is there. He clearly said statements under oath that have been proven incorrect so how do they proceed with that? why in gods name did the Guy make so much fuss over the fact he's not been following the case when he clearly was?
Sorry I have not read those articles. Do we know they are true or is it tabloid gossip?
She did go on the show packed with good looking girls and boys, it seems they all had a great time in the Sun in Jamaica. Whilst I wasn't there, it would be little stretch of the imagination to believe some friendly and flirtatious, but not necessarily serious interaction took place. You've only got to look at some of our home grown efforts to believe it could easily happen. What you think is little more than a kiss on the cheek may be not what the apparently devout Christian its all about me THE Oscar Pretorius might see. This is not about London or similar place morals this is a particular part of SA what to us is nothing may have far more import.
Sky giving an utterly damning verdict of Dr Nicks performance today
Already pointing out he has a FB account and twitter and despite what he said in court has been retweeing stories about the Case. Guessing Nel Cant let this go when the court returns so I wonder Are We going to see the Side of M'lady people say is there. He clearly said statements under oath that have been proven incorrect so how do they proceed with that? why in gods name did the Guy make so much fuss over the fact he's not been following the case when he clearly was?
He needs to be brought back to court, given a hefty fine and have his evidence thrown out....the world is watching this farce.
Sky giving an utterly damning verdict of Dr Nicks performance today
Already pointing out he has a FB account and twitter and despite what he said in court has been retweeing stories about the Case. Guessing Nel Cant let this go when the court returns so I wonder Are We going to see the Side of M'lady people say is there. He clearly said statements under oath that have been proven incorrect so how do they proceed with that? why in gods name did the Guy make so much fuss over the fact he's not been following the case when he clearly was?
Sadly not been able to watch his testimony...but have read about it here!!...I would have thought retweeting stories would be verging on the unprofessional...if he has tweeted any of his own views...or commented on a tweet then I`am sure M`Lady would want to have a word....Nevertheless just more evidence of the showbiz nature of the trial.
Sky giving an utterly damning verdict of Dr Nicks performance today
Already pointing out he has a FB account and twitter and despite what he said in court has been retweeing stories about the Case. Guessing Nel Cant let this go when the court returns so I wonder Are We going to see the Side of M'lady people say is there. He clearly said statements under oath that have been proven incorrect so how do they proceed with that? why in gods name did the Guy make so much fuss over the fact he's not been following the case when he clearly was?[/QUOTE]
He had a Holier than thou attitude, smugly saying he didn't watch TV or listen to the Radio. I hope they take him to task over this. So much of his testimony was flaky and tailored to the point of dishonest IMOP. Strangely in a way we should thank him, as he was so bad he has made a conviction of OP more likely.
He had a Holier than thou attitude, smugly saying he didn't watch TV or listen to the Radio. I hope they take him to task over this. So much of his testimony was flaky and tailored to the point of dishonest IMOP. Strangely in a way we should thank him, as he was so bad he has made a conviction of OP more likely.
I think that's the only reason Nel let him carry on, he was a disaster for the defence.
I'm not sure if he murdered her during an argument, or that he planned it out.
My dread is that he is found guilty of only culpable homicide, and gets a suspended sentence. If he is found guilty of CH, it is very unlikely he would spend even 1 day in prison.
Premeditated in this sense could mean just secods before - the fact that he went and got his gun should be enough, or the fact that he fired the gun knowing someone was there.
Just want to say thank you for an interesting and entertaining thread. I watched some of this mornings proceedings and thought at one point OP had gone to sleep!
I'm definitely a Nel's Belle even though I am a cat person :kitty:, think he is great, and IMO he has tore the defence case to bits, especially yesterday and today.
I hope that M'Lady will give the appropriate sentence, and I really hope that Reeva didn't suffer too much at the end, it chils me to the bone to think of her in that cubicle, possibly trying to calm the situation and it just getting worse and worse.
I think an argument started downstairs and Reeva trying to calm the situation down, went and did her yoga and had a snack, hoping that OP would calm down and sadly he didn't and the argument escalated ending up with Reeva going to the safest place she could think of - the toilet, this infuriated OP and he out of control by this time, got the bat and then the gun
I hope Reeva's family get justice and can begin to get some form of closure.:(
Sorry about the rambling, on very strong painkillers.
No idea, does it matter?it was an ad supposedly for a programme. She had only been seeing OP for 5 days. From what I have read it was Oscar who was more likeley to be playing away.
Just want to say thank you for an interesting and entertaining thread. I watched some of this mornings proceedings and thought at one point OP had gone to sleep!
I'm definitely a Nel's Belle even though I am a cat person :kitty:, think he is great, and IMO he has tore the defence case to bits, especially yesterday and today.
I hope that M'Lady will give the appropriate sentence, and I really hope that Reeva didn't suffer too much at the end, it chils me to the bone to think of her in that cubicle, possibly trying to calm the situation and it just getting worse and worse.
I think an argument started downstairs and Reeva trying to calm the situation down, went and did her yoga and had a snack, hoping that OP would calm down and sadly he didn't and the argument escalated ending up with Reeva going to the safest place she could think of - the toilet, this infuriated OP and he out of control by this time, got the bat and then the gun
I hope Reeva's family get justice and can begin to get some form of closure.:(
Sorry about the rambling, on very strong painkillers.
You haven't rambled Kat.
I think many of us are thinking along the same lines as you.
In the light of what has happened during the defence part so far I have changed my version of what happened.
I am even more convinced of OP's guilt now!
Oscar and Reeva have a late dinner and an argument breaks out starting sometime before 2am
The bedroom window is open from earlier in the evening
Estelle van der Merwe is woken at 1.56am by the noise of a fight.
It is hard to make out but she hears a woman's voice, but does not know where it is coming from
She tries and eventually gets back to sleep
At some time the bedroom door may have been damaged
At some point the arguing calmed down only to begin again later
Oscar picks up or threatens to pick up the cricket bat
Reeva starts to feel scared. She runs from the bedroom up the corridor to the bathroom
(Oscar may have argued with her in the bathroom and thrown her jeans out of the window)
She locks herself in the toilet.
The bathroom light is already on but the toilet is dark because the bulb in there is broken.
Oscar calms down, is apologetic and tries to talk her out.
Reeva will not unlock the door and Oscar becomes furious
Mrs Stipp has a bout of coughing which wakes her up
She looks at her clock which says 3.02. (Clock was fast - actual time about 2.58)
(She will look at her clock again at 3.17 actual time about 3.13)
The clock is now running and the defence must account for how OP used up this time an did not confirm to himself that he shot Reeva for another 15 minutes.
Oscar comes into the bathroom with the cricket bat. The light may already be on or he may now switch it on
He may or may not be on his prosthetics.
The damage shows the angle of the cricket bat in the door is consistent with being hit by a shorter person standing in a natural position
The damage is also consistent with a taller person leaning into the hit, putting their body weight into the blow to use maximum force.
After the defence case it is unlikely that this will be reliably decided.
Reeva sees the light go on, she may scream which is not heard due to the locked toilet or
does not scream so as not to escalate the situation.
Mr Stipp is woken by 3 loud bangs
Mrs Stipp is fully awake and hears 3 "gunshots" as OP hits the door with the cricket bat and moments after a woman screaming
Roux tries to make out that Mrs Stipp slept through the first "shot" by first lying to the court about her being "asleep" when cross examining Mr Stipp
She has line of sight to the bathroom window from her bed.
The "shots" are OP hitting the door breaking it. There are only 3 hits
Estelle van der Merwe does not hear these bangs, she is trying to sleep and may have a pillow over her head
The cricket bat has broken out a piece of the door along the weakest line of the joint at the right edge of the top inner panel
It runs almost the complete height of the panel and parts of it are the splinters lost from the door exhibit
Only the Stipps heard these "shots"
At this point OP may break away some other part of the panel. Now the panel is broken parts may be relatively easily lifted out
(Note: The toilet and bathroom windows are frosted. The toilet window is separate to and to the left of the bathroom window. The bathroom window has 3 sections, the left section was open. The
Stipps could see straight in through the open section where the bathroom light appeared bright)
Mrs Stipp see's the bathroom light on and light in the toilet almost as bright as behind the closed part of the bathroom window.
She described it as a "light on in the toilet"
Mr Stipp said he also saw light in the toilet but it was not as bright as in the bathroom window - it would certainly not have been as bright as the light from the open part of the bathroom window.
He did at one point say he didn't see a "light on" in the toilet as he thought it was not bright enough for this.
The Stipps saw the bathroom light through the hole in the toilet door.
If both Stipps saw light in the toilet/bathroom straight after the first sounds which OP said were only gunshots then OP must have been lying.
Roux had already told the court that OP said the toilet light was broken.
Reeva's screams could now be heard clearly through the hole and out through the open bathroom window (Stipp said the screams were clear and unmuffled)
Roux argued Monday 4 March, Session 3 at 28.00min in support of MB hearing OP screams that should be easy to hear through same open window at the distance
The Stipps go quickly to their small balcony, they hear a woman/female screaming.
They say the screams were "moments" after the shots.
At about 3.03 (2.59 actual time) "just after 3" the Bergers are woken by Reevas screams. (They did not hear the door being hit)
Mr Berger very roughly estimates there is 2 minutes before the cries of "help"
After 3/4 min the Stipps move to their big balcony for a better view
Mr Stipp goes in and spends some time during the following events calling:
Silverwood Security No answer
Called 10111 - not in service
Its is now about 3.05/3.06 (3.01/3.02 actual time)
Reeva screams help help help
Oscar shouts help, help, help mocking her. He may have been in the bedroom at this point as Mr Stipp said the helps were muffled.
The Bergers call security
There is continued screaming some of which may not have been heard as the witnesses were busy getting dressed/phoning
Oscar goes to get his gun.
Reeva can see out through the hole in the door and she knows Oscar is coming with the gun
Her screams intensify. Mrs Berger says "to a climax"
Mr Berger is on his balcony and hears the same
Mrs Stipp hears this as screams coming closer as if along the road
Whilst on the phone Mr Stipp hears only "2 /3 loud bangs". Thinks it is shooting
The Bergers hear shot....shot shot shot taking
The shots lasted 3.5 seconds with a longer approx 1.5 second pause between shot 1 and 2
Mrs Stipp hears a man screaming just before the shots, she cannot make out words then hears 3 shots.
Mrs Stipp has just looked at he clock. It says 3.17 (actual time 3.13)
For a short time it was together with the woman screaming. There was differences in the pitches at the same time.
Estelle van der Merwe and her husband both hear bang bang bang bang, her husband says they are gunshots
OP now angry beyond control has come into the bathroom
He raises his gun and fires four shots, moving towards the door and to the right as if to try to see Reeva through the long narrow vertical hole in the door
He may be on his stumps and firing with the gun raised to his eye although as he is moving this would seem odd
He is probably his prosthetics firing from the hip. He had a trapped easy target so as he was moving at the time this would seem more likely
The bullet holes are not tightly grouped and not consistent with double tapped shots.
The light has been on all the time so he can see clearly
After the first shot shatters her hip Reeva has about 1.5 seconds to fall back onto the magazine rack where a ricochet hits her
The next two shots hit her in the arm and head, She screamed as long as she could but it died away after the last shot.
The screams dying away after the last shot were heard by the Bergers and Mrs Stipp
Estelle van der Merwe describes silence after the shooting
When Mr Stipp goes back on the balcony and hears a man shouting "help" "help" "help"
Estelle van der Merwe heard a womans voice crying for help. Her husband said it was Oscar
Closer neighbours heard a man crying out and crying in pain
Security arrive and talk to the Stipps on their balcony
Mr Stipp again went to the other balcony and watches Security leave
Mr Stipp sees a light coloured figure moving from right to left through the bathroom window
Mrs Stipp initially reported the same but retracted this when she realised it was her husbands recollection.
She also "remembered" the event before the final shots not after. This was to be challenged during the defence part.
Mr Stipp said the bathroom and toilet lights did not change at any time
Mrs Stipp said the bathroom and toilet lights did not change at any time
Oscar with prosthetics now on, probably realising the terrible truth of what he had done, pulled out the rest of the panel, got the key opened the door and dragged her out.
It was as he was breaking down the rest of the panel that the bullet hole that Col Vermeulen pointed out caused a crack in the wood to deviate.
It was only 1 hole that showed this effect.
Oscar horrified at what he has done picks up Reeva and carries her downstairs where he is met by Security and later Dr Stipp.
It does make me wonder if this first amazing "expert" has basically fallen apart within days they are calling another 29 people apparently Is the Quality of the evidence/Opinion they are going to provide much better? I actually cant wait to see how M'lady handles this
I think that's the only reason Nel let him carry on, he was a disaster for the defence.
Think you are right. Pre the break in the trial we had OP tying himself in knots and then this buffoon, both spouting nonsense on and on. Nel just spun it out until they got to a nice place to stop. OP's first witness other than himself thoroughly discredited and the point firmly rammed home.
Now Nel has a couple of weeks to ponder how to spit out possibly better 'expert' witnesses than the first pair... unless next up is Dixon's sidekick:D as a tasty little treat for Nel.... "Milady I was pretending to be legless for Mr Dixon... we measured this with our eyes."
No idea, does it matter?it was an ad supposedly for a programme. She had only been seeing OP for 5 days. From what I have read it was Oscar who was more likeley to be playing away.
Nobody is besmirching Reeva's good name, merely speculating as to what may have triggered OP's over reaction.
What, to any normal person would be unimportant, to a narcistic, egocentric and jealous man could have so enraged him that he shot her dead.
Bloody hell Porky you've put some serious effort in there.
Just one thing, If Reeva could see OP through a hole in the door and could see he had a gun, would she have perhaps made herself smaller and/or tried to get herself behind the wall in the toilet, or even tried to break the window with the magazine rack?
Nobody is besmirching Reeva's good name, merely speculating as to what may have triggered OP's over reaction.
What, to any normal person would be unimportant, to a narcistic, egocentric and jealous man could have so enraged him that he shot her dead.
exactly
don't know they poster is getting soo upset. it could be a reason
i read he accused her of flirting with her mates husband....that is some serious jealousy.
Bloody hell Porky you've put some serious effort in there.
Just one thing, If Reeva could see OP through a hole in the door and could see he had a gun, would she have perhaps made herself smaller and/or tried to get herself behind the wall in the toilet, or even tried to break the window with the magazine rack?
Great write up though.
maybe but when in fear you don't think and everything happens so fast
if thats what happened and i believe he killed her in rage, he really is a twisted nasty piece of work. To do such a thing and lie to her parents etc...he is just sc*m imo.
In the light of what has happened during the defence part so far I have changed my version of what happened.
I am even more convinced of OP's guilt now!
Oscar and Reeva have a late dinner and an argument breaks out starting sometime before 2am
The bedroom window is open from earlier in the evening
Estelle van der Merwe is woken at 1.56am by the noise of a fight.
It is hard to make out but she hears a woman's voice, but does not know where it is coming from
She tries and eventually gets back to sleep
At some time the bedroom door may have been damaged
At some point the arguing calmed down only to begin again later
Oscar picks up or threatens to pick up the cricket bat
Reeva starts to feel scared. She runs from the bedroom up the corridor to the bathroom
(Oscar may have argued with her in the bathroom and thrown her jeans out of the window)
She locks herself in the toilet.
The bathroom light is already on but the toilet is dark because the bulb in there is broken.
Oscar calms down, is apologetic and tries to talk her out.
Reeva will not unlock the door and Oscar becomes furious
Mrs Stipp has a bout of coughing which wakes her up
She looks at her clock which says 3.02. (Clock was fast - actual time about 2.58)
(She will look at her clock again at 3.17 actual time about 3.13)
The clock is now running and the defence must account for how OP used up this time an did not confirm to himself that he shot Reeva for another 15 minutes.
Oscar comes into the bathroom with the cricket bat. The light may already be on or he may now switch it on
He may or may not be on his prosthetics.
The damage shows the angle of the cricket bat in the door is consistent with being hit by a shorter person standing in a natural position
The damage is also consistent with a taller person leaning into the hit, putting their body weight into the blow to use maximum force.
After the defence case it is unlikely that this will be reliably decided.
Reeva sees the light go on, she may scream which is not heard due to the locked toilet or
does not scream so as not to escalate the situation.
Mr Stipp is woken by 3 loud bangs
Mrs Stipp is fully awake and hears 3 "gunshots" as OP hits the door with the cricket bat and moments after a woman screaming
Roux tries to make out that Mrs Stipp slept through the first "shot" by first lying to the court about her being "asleep" when cross examining Mr Stipp
She has line of sight to the bathroom window from her bed.
The "shots" are OP hitting the door breaking it. There are only 3 hits
Estelle van der Merwe does not hear these bangs, she is trying to sleep and may have a pillow over her head
The cricket bat has broken out a piece of the door along the weakest line of the joint at the right edge of the top inner panel
It runs almost the complete height of the panel and parts of it are the splinters lost from the door exhibit
Only the Stipps heard these "shots"
At this point OP may break away some other part of the panel. Now the panel is broken parts may be relatively easily lifted out
(Note: The toilet and bathroom windows are frosted. The toilet window is separate to and to the left of the bathroom window. The bathroom window has 3 sections, the left section was open. The
Stipps could see straight in through the open section where the bathroom light appeared bright)
Mrs Stipp see's the bathroom light on and light in the toilet almost as bright as behind the closed part of the bathroom window.
She described it as a "light on in the toilet"
Mr Stipp said he also saw light in the toilet but it was not as bright as in the bathroom window - it would certainly not have been as bright as the light from the open part of the bathroom window.
He did at one point say he didn't see a "light on" in the toilet as he thought it was not bright enough for this.
The Stipps saw the bathroom light through the hole in the toilet door.
If both Stipps saw light in the toilet/bathroom straight after the first sounds which OP said were only gunshots then OP must have been lying.
Roux had already told the court that OP said the toilet light was broken.
Reeva's screams could now be heard clearly through the hole and out through the open bathroom window (Stipp said the screams were clear and unmuffled)
Roux argued Monday 4 March, Session 3 at 28.00min in support of MB hearing OP screams that should be easy to hear through same open window at the distance
The Stipps go quickly to their small balcony, they hear a woman/female screaming.
They say the screams were "moments" after the shots.
At about 3.03 (2.59 actual time) "just after 3" the Bergers are woken by Reevas screams. (They did not hear the door being hit)
Mr Berger very roughly estimates there is 2 minutes before the cries of "help"
After 3/4 min the Stipps move to their big balcony for a better view
Mr Stipp goes in and spends some time during the following events calling:
Silverwood Security No answer
Called 10111 - not in service
Its is now about 3.05/3.06 (3.01/3.02 actual time)
Reeva screams help help help
Oscar shouts help, help, help mocking her. He may have been in the bedroom at this point as Mr Stipp said the helps were muffled.
The Bergers call security
There is continued screaming some of which may not have been heard as the witnesses were busy getting dressed/phoning
Oscar goes to get his gun.
Reeva can see out through the hole in the door and she knows Oscar is coming with the gun
Her screams intensify. Mrs Berger says "to a climax"
Mr Berger is on his balcony and hears the same
Mrs Stipp hears this as screams coming closer as if along the road
Whilst on the phone Mr Stipp hears only "2 /3 loud bangs". Thinks it is shooting
The Bergers hear shot....shot shot shot taking
The shots lasted 3.5 seconds with a longer approx 1.5 second pause between shot 1 and 2
Mrs Stipp hears a man screaming just before the shots, she cannot make out words then hears 3 shots.
Mrs Stipp has just looked at he clock. It says 3.17 (actual time 3.13)
For a short time it was together with the woman screaming. There was differences in the pitches at the same time.
Estelle van der Merwe and her husband both hear bang bang bang bang, her husband says they are gunshots
OP now angry beyond control has come into the bathroom
He raises his gun and fires four shots, moving towards the door and to the right as if to try to see Reeva through the long narrow vertical hole in the door
He may be on his stumps and firing with the gun raised to his eye although as he is moving this would seem odd
He is probably his prosthetics firing from the hip. He had a trapped easy target so as he was moving at the time this would seem more likely
The bullet holes are not tightly grouped and not consistent with double tapped shots.
The light has been on all the time so he can see clearly
After the first shot shatters her hip Reeva has about 1.5 seconds to fall back onto the magazine rack where a ricochet hits her
The next two shots hit her in the arm and head, She screamed as long as she could but it died away after the last shot.
The screams dying away after the last shot were heard by the Bergers and Mrs Stipp
Estelle van der Merwe describes silence after the shooting
When Mr Stipp goes back on the balcony and hears a man shouting "help" "help" "help"
Estelle van der Merwe heard a womans voice crying for help. Her husband said it was Oscar
Closer neighbours heard a man crying out and crying in pain
Security arrive and talk to the Stipps on their balcony
Mr Stipp again went to the other balcony and watches Security leave
Mr Stipp sees a light coloured figure moving from right to left through the bathroom window
Mrs Stipp initially reported the same but retracted this when she realised it was her husbands recollection.
She also "remembered" the event before the final shots not after. This was to be challenged during the defence part.
Mr Stipp said the bathroom and toilet lights did not change at any time
Mrs Stipp said the bathroom and toilet lights did not change at any time
Oscar with prosthetics now on, probably realising the terrible truth of what he had done, pulled out the rest of the panel, got the key opened the door and dragged her out.
It was as he was breaking down the rest of the panel that the bullet hole that Col Vermeulen pointed out caused a crack in the wood to deviate.
It was only 1 hole that showed this effect.
Oscar horrified at what he has done picks up Reeva and carries her downstairs where he is met by Security and later Dr Stipp.
Sky giving an utterly damning verdict of Dr Nicks performance today
Already pointing out he has a FB account and twitter and despite what he said in court has been retweeing stories about the Case. Guessing Nel Cant let this go when the court returns so I wonder Are We going to see the Side of M'lady people say is there. He clearly said statements under oath that have been proven incorrect so how do they proceed with that? why in gods name did the Guy make so much fuss over the fact he's not been following the case when he clearly was?
My opinion is that he was so overwhelmed by Nel's slaughtering he didn't realise he had started lying . He just wanted the torture over
In the light of what has happened during the defence part so far I have changed my version of what happened.
I am even more convinced of OP's guilt now!
Oscar and Reeva have a late dinner and an argument breaks out starting sometime before 2am
The bedroom window is open from earlier in the evening
Estelle van der Merwe is woken at 1.56am by the noise of a fight.
It is hard to make out but she hears a woman's voice, but does not know where it is coming from
She tries and eventually gets back to sleep
At some time the bedroom door may have been damaged
At some point the arguing calmed down only to begin again later
Oscar picks up or threatens to pick up the cricket bat
Reeva starts to feel scared. She runs from the bedroom up the corridor to the bathroom
(Oscar may have argued with her in the bathroom and thrown her jeans out of the window)
She locks herself in the toilet.
The bathroom light is already on but the toilet is dark because the bulb in there is broken.
Oscar calms down, is apologetic and tries to talk her out.
Reeva will not unlock the door and Oscar becomes furious
Mrs Stipp has a bout of coughing which wakes her up
She looks at her clock which says 3.02. (Clock was fast - actual time about 2.58)
(She will look at her clock again at 3.17 actual time about 3.13)
The clock is now running and the defence must account for how OP used up this time an did not confirm to himself that he shot Reeva for another 15 minutes.
Oscar comes into the bathroom with the cricket bat. The light may already be on or he may now switch it on
He may or may not be on his prosthetics.
The damage shows the angle of the cricket bat in the door is consistent with being hit by a shorter person standing in a natural position
The damage is also consistent with a taller person leaning into the hit, putting their body weight into the blow to use maximum force.
After the defence case it is unlikely that this will be reliably decided.
Reeva sees the light go on, she may scream which is not heard due to the locked toilet or
does not scream so as not to escalate the situation.
Mr Stipp is woken by 3 loud bangs
Mrs Stipp is fully awake and hears 3 "gunshots" as OP hits the door with the cricket bat and moments after a woman screaming
Roux tries to make out that Mrs Stipp slept through the first "shot" by first lying to the court about her being "asleep" when cross examining Mr Stipp
She has line of sight to the bathroom window from her bed.
The "shots" are OP hitting the door breaking it. There are only 3 hits
Estelle van der Merwe does not hear these bangs, she is trying to sleep and may have a pillow over her head
The cricket bat has broken out a piece of the door along the weakest line of the joint at the right edge of the top inner panel
It runs almost the complete height of the panel and parts of it are the splinters lost from the door exhibit
Only the Stipps heard these "shots"
At this point OP may break away some other part of the panel. Now the panel is broken parts may be relatively easily lifted out
(Note: The toilet and bathroom windows are frosted. The toilet window is separate to and to the left of the bathroom window. The bathroom window has 3 sections, the left section was open. The
Stipps could see straight in through the open section where the bathroom light appeared bright)
Mrs Stipp see's the bathroom light on and light in the toilet almost as bright as behind the closed part of the bathroom window.
She described it as a "light on in the toilet"
Mr Stipp said he also saw light in the toilet but it was not as bright as in the bathroom window - it would certainly not have been as bright as the light from the open part of the bathroom window.
He did at one point say he didn't see a "light on" in the toilet as he thought it was not bright enough for this.
The Stipps saw the bathroom light through the hole in the toilet door.
If both Stipps saw light in the toilet/bathroom straight after the first sounds which OP said were only gunshots then OP must have been lying.
Roux had already told the court that OP said the toilet light was broken.
Reeva's screams could now be heard clearly through the hole and out through the open bathroom window (Stipp said the screams were clear and unmuffled)
Roux argued Monday 4 March, Session 3 at 28.00min in support of MB hearing OP screams that should be easy to hear through same open window at the distance
The Stipps go quickly to their small balcony, they hear a woman/female screaming.
They say the screams were "moments" after the shots.
At about 3.03 (2.59 actual time) "just after 3" the Bergers are woken by Reevas screams. (They did not hear the door being hit)
Mr Berger very roughly estimates there is 2 minutes before the cries of "help"
After 3/4 min the Stipps move to their big balcony for a better view
Mr Stipp goes in and spends some time during the following events calling:
Silverwood Security No answer
Called 10111 - not in service
Its is now about 3.05/3.06 (3.01/3.02 actual time)
Reeva screams help help help
Oscar shouts help, help, help mocking her. He may have been in the bedroom at this point as Mr Stipp said the helps were muffled.
The Bergers call security
There is continued screaming some of which may not have been heard as the witnesses were busy getting dressed/phoning
Oscar goes to get his gun.
Reeva can see out through the hole in the door and she knows Oscar is coming with the gun
Her screams intensify. Mrs Berger says "to a climax"
Mr Berger is on his balcony and hears the same
Mrs Stipp hears this as screams coming closer as if along the road
Whilst on the phone Mr Stipp hears only "2 /3 loud bangs". Thinks it is shooting
The Bergers hear shot....shot shot shot taking
The shots lasted 3.5 seconds with a longer approx 1.5 second pause between shot 1 and 2
Mrs Stipp hears a man screaming just before the shots, she cannot make out words then hears 3 shots.
Mrs Stipp has just looked at he clock. It says 3.17 (actual time 3.13)
For a short time it was together with the woman screaming. There was differences in the pitches at the same time.
Estelle van der Merwe and her husband both hear bang bang bang bang, her husband says they are gunshots
OP now angry beyond control has come into the bathroom
He raises his gun and fires four shots, moving towards the door and to the right as if to try to see Reeva through the long narrow vertical hole in the door
He may be on his stumps and firing with the gun raised to his eye although as he is moving this would seem odd
He is probably his prosthetics firing from the hip. He had a trapped easy target so as he was moving at the time this would seem more likely
The bullet holes are not tightly grouped and not consistent with double tapped shots.
The light has been on all the time so he can see clearly
After the first shot shatters her hip Reeva has about 1.5 seconds to fall back onto the magazine rack where a ricochet hits her
The next two shots hit her in the arm and head, She screamed as long as she could but it died away after the last shot.
The screams dying away after the last shot were heard by the Bergers and Mrs Stipp
Estelle van der Merwe describes silence after the shooting
When Mr Stipp goes back on the balcony and hears a man shouting "help" "help" "help"
Estelle van der Merwe heard a womans voice crying for help. Her husband said it was Oscar
Closer neighbours heard a man crying out and crying in pain
Security arrive and talk to the Stipps on their balcony
Mr Stipp again went to the other balcony and watches Security leave
Mr Stipp sees a light coloured figure moving from right to left through the bathroom window
Mrs Stipp initially reported the same but retracted this when she realised it was her husbands recollection.
She also "remembered" the event before the final shots not after. This was to be challenged during the defence part.
Mr Stipp said the bathroom and toilet lights did not change at any time
Mrs Stipp said the bathroom and toilet lights did not change at any time
Oscar with prosthetics now on, probably realising the terrible truth of what he had done, pulled out the rest of the panel, got the key opened the door and dragged her out.
It was as he was breaking down the rest of the panel that the bullet hole that Col Vermeulen pointed out caused a crack in the wood to deviate.
It was only 1 hole that showed this effect.
Oscar horrified at what he has done picks up Reeva and carries her downstairs where he is met by Security and later Dr Stipp.
Porky .. I have written the post number down (I will never find it again if I don't) as I am going to read this tomorrow. My head is about to blow up and in a way I am glad there is a 2 week break, I need a rest or my brain does .
maybe but when in fear you don't think and everything happens so fast
if thats what happened and i believe he killed her in rage, he really is a twisted nasty piece of work. To do such a thing and lie to her parents etc...he is just sc*m imo.
Maybe but I think surely if Reeva was screaming for her life it could be a natural reaction to curl up or hide rather than simply stand there.
It's difficult isn't it, some people freeze, many people curl up in to a ball.
Good effort porky. It's good to have the neighbours' testimonies fitted together like that into a time sequence.
There are still a few things that do not quite make sense.
If neighbours heard oscar in so much distress did he really shoot her deliberately in cold blood just moments before?
Would the crack in the door let in enough light for the Stipps to think the light was on in there?
Why was M. Burger unable to hear these bat noises which are similar to a gun going off apparently ... Yet the sound of arguing kept her awake and she heard the screaming?
In the light of what has happened during the defence part so far I have changed my version of what happened.
I am even more convinced of OP's guilt now!
Oscar and Reeva have a late dinner and an argument breaks out starting sometime before 2am
The bedroom window is open from earlier in the evening
Estelle van der Merwe is woken at 1.56am by the noise of a fight.
It is hard to make out but she hears a woman's voice, but does not know where it is coming from
She tries and eventually gets back to sleep
At some time the bedroom door may have been damaged
At some point the arguing calmed down only to begin again later
Oscar picks up or threatens to pick up the cricket bat
Reeva starts to feel scared. She runs from the bedroom up the corridor to the bathroom
(Oscar may have argued with her in the bathroom and thrown her jeans out of the window)
She locks herself in the toilet.
The bathroom light is already on but the toilet is dark because the bulb in there is broken.
Oscar calms down, is apologetic and tries to talk her out.
Reeva will not unlock the door and Oscar becomes furious
Mrs Stipp has a bout of coughing which wakes her up
She looks at her clock which says 3.02. (Clock was fast - actual time about 2.58)
(She will look at her clock again at 3.17 actual time about 3.13)
The clock is now running and the defence must account for how OP used up this time an did not confirm to himself that he shot Reeva for another 15 minutes.
Oscar comes into the bathroom with the cricket bat. The light may already be on or he may now switch it on
He may or may not be on his prosthetics.
The damage shows the angle of the cricket bat in the door is consistent with being hit by a shorter person standing in a natural position
The damage is also consistent with a taller person leaning into the hit, putting their body weight into the blow to use maximum force.
After the defence case it is unlikely that this will be reliably decided.
Reeva sees the light go on, she may scream which is not heard due to the locked toilet or
does not scream so as not to escalate the situation.
Mr Stipp is woken by 3 loud bangs
Mrs Stipp is fully awake and hears 3 "gunshots" as OP hits the door with the cricket bat and moments after a woman screaming
Roux tries to make out that Mrs Stipp slept through the first "shot" by first lying to the court about her being "asleep" when cross examining Mr Stipp
She has line of sight to the bathroom window from her bed.
The "shots" are OP hitting the door breaking it. There are only 3 hits
Estelle van der Merwe does not hear these bangs, she is trying to sleep and may have a pillow over her head
The cricket bat has broken out a piece of the door along the weakest line of the joint at the right edge of the top inner panel
It runs almost the complete height of the panel and parts of it are the splinters lost from the door exhibit
Only the Stipps heard these "shots"
At this point OP may break away some other part of the panel. Now the panel is broken parts may be relatively easily lifted out
(Note: The toilet and bathroom windows are frosted. The toilet window is separate to and to the left of the bathroom window. The bathroom window has 3 sections, the left section was open. The
Stipps could see straight in through the open section where the bathroom light appeared bright)
Mrs Stipp see's the bathroom light on and light in the toilet almost as bright as behind the closed part of the bathroom window.
She described it as a "light on in the toilet"
Mr Stipp said he also saw light in the toilet but it was not as bright as in the bathroom window - it would certainly not have been as bright as the light from the open part of the bathroom window.
He did at one point say he didn't see a "light on" in the toilet as he thought it was not bright enough for this.
The Stipps saw the bathroom light through the hole in the toilet door.
If both Stipps saw light in the toilet/bathroom straight after the first sounds which OP said were only gunshots then OP must have been lying.
Roux had already told the court that OP said the toilet light was broken.
Reeva's screams could now be heard clearly through the hole and out through the open bathroom window (Stipp said the screams were clear and unmuffled)
Roux argued Monday 4 March, Session 3 at 28.00min in support of MB hearing OP screams that should be easy to hear through same open window at the distance
The Stipps go quickly to their small balcony, they hear a woman/female screaming.
They say the screams were "moments" after the shots.
At about 3.03 (2.59 actual time) "just after 3" the Bergers are woken by Reevas screams. (They did not hear the door being hit)
Mr Berger very roughly estimates there is 2 minutes before the cries of "help"
After 3/4 min the Stipps move to their big balcony for a better view
Mr Stipp goes in and spends some time during the following events calling:
Silverwood Security No answer
Called 10111 - not in service
Its is now about 3.05/3.06 (3.01/3.02 actual time)
Reeva screams help help help
Oscar shouts help, help, help mocking her. He may have been in the bedroom at this point as Mr Stipp said the helps were muffled.
The Bergers call security
There is continued screaming some of which may not have been heard as the witnesses were busy getting dressed/phoning
Oscar goes to get his gun.
Reeva can see out through the hole in the door and she knows Oscar is coming with the gun
Her screams intensify. Mrs Berger says "to a climax"
Mr Berger is on his balcony and hears the same
Mrs Stipp hears this as screams coming closer as if along the road
Whilst on the phone Mr Stipp hears only "2 /3 loud bangs". Thinks it is shooting
The Bergers hear shot....shot shot shot taking
The shots lasted 3.5 seconds with a longer approx 1.5 second pause between shot 1 and 2
Mrs Stipp hears a man screaming just before the shots, she cannot make out words then hears 3 shots.
Mrs Stipp has just looked at he clock. It says 3.17 (actual time 3.13)
For a short time it was together with the woman screaming. There was differences in the pitches at the same time.
Estelle van der Merwe and her husband both hear bang bang bang bang, her husband says they are gunshots
OP now angry beyond control has come into the bathroom
He raises his gun and fires four shots, moving towards the door and to the right as if to try to see Reeva through the long narrow vertical hole in the door
He may be on his stumps and firing with the gun raised to his eye although as he is moving this would seem odd
He is probably his prosthetics firing from the hip. He had a trapped easy target so as he was moving at the time this would seem more likely
The bullet holes are not tightly grouped and not consistent with double tapped shots.
The light has been on all the time so he can see clearly
After the first shot shatters her hip Reeva has about 1.5 seconds to fall back onto the magazine rack where a ricochet hits her
The next two shots hit her in the arm and head, She screamed as long as she could but it died away after the last shot.
The screams dying away after the last shot were heard by the Bergers and Mrs Stipp
Estelle van der Merwe describes silence after the shooting
When Mr Stipp goes back on the balcony and hears a man shouting "help" "help" "help"
Estelle van der Merwe heard a womans voice crying for help. Her husband said it was Oscar
Closer neighbours heard a man crying out and crying in pain
Security arrive and talk to the Stipps on their balcony
Mr Stipp again went to the other balcony and watches Security leave
Mr Stipp sees a light coloured figure moving from right to left through the bathroom window
Mrs Stipp initially reported the same but retracted this when she realised it was her husbands recollection.
She also "remembered" the event before the final shots not after. This was to be challenged during the defence part.
Mr Stipp said the bathroom and toilet lights did not change at any time
Mrs Stipp said the bathroom and toilet lights did not change at any time
Oscar with prosthetics now on, probably realising the terrible truth of what he had done, pulled out the rest of the panel, got the key opened the door and dragged her out.
It was as he was breaking down the rest of the panel that the bullet hole that Col Vermeulen pointed out caused a crack in the wood to deviate.
It was only 1 hole that showed this effect.
Oscar horrified at what he has done picks up Reeva and carries her downstairs where he is met by Security and later Dr Stipp.
So chilling. It made me cry for Reeva again. Great write up.
don't know they poster is getting soo upset. it could be a reason
i read he accused her of flirting with her mates husband....that is some serious jealousy.
i really don't know why she stayed:(
I am not in the slightest s bit upset. I have said repeatedly that we will never know what caused the row. Repeating gossip as anything more than that, gossip, is just speculation.
Several times this thread has gone seriously of track as gossip is repeated as fact . It's worth saying what is pure speculation unless there is a source that is verifiable.
Comments
Already pointing out he has a FB account and twitter and despite what he said in court has been retweeing stories about the Case. Guessing Nel Cant let this go when the court returns so I wonder Are We going to see the Side of M'lady people say is there. He clearly said statements under oath that have been proven incorrect so how do they proceed with that? why in gods name did the Guy make so much fuss over the fact he's not been following the case when he clearly was?
She did go on the show packed with good looking girls and boys, it seems they all had a great time in the Sun in Jamaica. Whilst I wasn't there, it would be little stretch of the imagination to believe some friendly and flirtatious, but not necessarily serious interaction took place. You've only got to look at some of our home grown efforts to believe it could easily happen. What you think is little more than a kiss on the cheek may be not what the apparently devout Christian its all about me THE Oscar Pretorius might see. This is not about London or similar place morals this is a particular part of SA what to us is nothing may have far more import.
He needs to be brought back to court, given a hefty fine and have his evidence thrown out....the world is watching this farce.
Sadly not been able to watch his testimony...but have read about it here!!...I would have thought retweeting stories would be verging on the unprofessional...if he has tweeted any of his own views...or commented on a tweet then I`am sure M`Lady would want to have a word....Nevertheless just more evidence of the showbiz nature of the trial.
I think that's the only reason Nel let him carry on, he was a disaster for the defence.
Premeditated in this sense could mean just secods before - the fact that he went and got his gun should be enough, or the fact that he fired the gun knowing someone was there.
I'm definitely a Nel's Belle even though I am a cat person :kitty:, think he is great, and IMO he has tore the defence case to bits, especially yesterday and today.
I hope that M'Lady will give the appropriate sentence, and I really hope that Reeva didn't suffer too much at the end, it chils me to the bone to think of her in that cubicle, possibly trying to calm the situation and it just getting worse and worse.
I think an argument started downstairs and Reeva trying to calm the situation down, went and did her yoga and had a snack, hoping that OP would calm down and sadly he didn't and the argument escalated ending up with Reeva going to the safest place she could think of - the toilet, this infuriated OP and he out of control by this time, got the bat and then the gun
I hope Reeva's family get justice and can begin to get some form of closure.:(
Sorry about the rambling, on very strong painkillers.
what was he?
You haven't rambled Kat.
I think many of us are thinking along the same lines as you.
Hope you are ok
I am even more convinced of OP's guilt now!
Oscar and Reeva have a late dinner and an argument breaks out starting sometime before 2am
The bedroom window is open from earlier in the evening
Estelle van der Merwe is woken at 1.56am by the noise of a fight.
It is hard to make out but she hears a woman's voice, but does not know where it is coming from
She tries and eventually gets back to sleep
At some time the bedroom door may have been damaged
At some point the arguing calmed down only to begin again later
Oscar picks up or threatens to pick up the cricket bat
Reeva starts to feel scared. She runs from the bedroom up the corridor to the bathroom
(Oscar may have argued with her in the bathroom and thrown her jeans out of the window)
She locks herself in the toilet.
The bathroom light is already on but the toilet is dark because the bulb in there is broken.
Oscar calms down, is apologetic and tries to talk her out.
Reeva will not unlock the door and Oscar becomes furious
Mrs Stipp has a bout of coughing which wakes her up
She looks at her clock which says 3.02. (Clock was fast - actual time about 2.58)
(She will look at her clock again at 3.17 actual time about 3.13)
The clock is now running and the defence must account for how OP used up this time an did not confirm to himself that he shot Reeva for another 15 minutes.
Oscar comes into the bathroom with the cricket bat. The light may already be on or he may now switch it on
He may or may not be on his prosthetics.
The damage shows the angle of the cricket bat in the door is consistent with being hit by a shorter person standing in a natural position
The damage is also consistent with a taller person leaning into the hit, putting their body weight into the blow to use maximum force.
After the defence case it is unlikely that this will be reliably decided.
Reeva sees the light go on, she may scream which is not heard due to the locked toilet or
does not scream so as not to escalate the situation.
Mr Stipp is woken by 3 loud bangs
Mrs Stipp is fully awake and hears 3 "gunshots" as OP hits the door with the cricket bat and moments after a woman screaming
Roux tries to make out that Mrs Stipp slept through the first "shot" by first lying to the court about her being "asleep" when cross examining Mr Stipp
She has line of sight to the bathroom window from her bed.
The "shots" are OP hitting the door breaking it. There are only 3 hits
Estelle van der Merwe does not hear these bangs, she is trying to sleep and may have a pillow over her head
The cricket bat has broken out a piece of the door along the weakest line of the joint at the right edge of the top inner panel
It runs almost the complete height of the panel and parts of it are the splinters lost from the door exhibit
Only the Stipps heard these "shots"
At this point OP may break away some other part of the panel. Now the panel is broken parts may be relatively easily lifted out
(Note: The toilet and bathroom windows are frosted. The toilet window is separate to and to the left of the bathroom window. The bathroom window has 3 sections, the left section was open. The
Stipps could see straight in through the open section where the bathroom light appeared bright)
Mrs Stipp see's the bathroom light on and light in the toilet almost as bright as behind the closed part of the bathroom window.
She described it as a "light on in the toilet"
Mr Stipp said he also saw light in the toilet but it was not as bright as in the bathroom window - it would certainly not have been as bright as the light from the open part of the bathroom window.
He did at one point say he didn't see a "light on" in the toilet as he thought it was not bright enough for this.
The Stipps saw the bathroom light through the hole in the toilet door.
If both Stipps saw light in the toilet/bathroom straight after the first sounds which OP said were only gunshots then OP must have been lying.
Roux had already told the court that OP said the toilet light was broken.
Reeva's screams could now be heard clearly through the hole and out through the open bathroom window (Stipp said the screams were clear and unmuffled)
Roux argued Monday 4 March, Session 3 at 28.00min in support of MB hearing OP screams that should be easy to hear through same open window at the distance
The Stipps go quickly to their small balcony, they hear a woman/female screaming.
They say the screams were "moments" after the shots.
At about 3.03 (2.59 actual time) "just after 3" the Bergers are woken by Reevas screams. (They did not hear the door being hit)
Mr Berger very roughly estimates there is 2 minutes before the cries of "help"
After 3/4 min the Stipps move to their big balcony for a better view
Mr Stipp goes in and spends some time during the following events calling:
Silverwood Security No answer
Called 10111 - not in service
Its is now about 3.05/3.06 (3.01/3.02 actual time)
Reeva screams help help help
Oscar shouts help, help, help mocking her. He may have been in the bedroom at this point as Mr Stipp said the helps were muffled.
The Bergers call security
There is continued screaming some of which may not have been heard as the witnesses were busy getting dressed/phoning
Oscar goes to get his gun.
Reeva can see out through the hole in the door and she knows Oscar is coming with the gun
Her screams intensify. Mrs Berger says "to a climax"
Mr Berger is on his balcony and hears the same
Mrs Stipp hears this as screams coming closer as if along the road
Whilst on the phone Mr Stipp hears only "2 /3 loud bangs". Thinks it is shooting
The Bergers hear shot....shot shot shot taking
The shots lasted 3.5 seconds with a longer approx 1.5 second pause between shot 1 and 2
Mrs Stipp hears a man screaming just before the shots, she cannot make out words then hears 3 shots.
Mrs Stipp has just looked at he clock. It says 3.17 (actual time 3.13)
For a short time it was together with the woman screaming. There was differences in the pitches at the same time.
Estelle van der Merwe and her husband both hear bang bang bang bang, her husband says they are gunshots
OP now angry beyond control has come into the bathroom
He raises his gun and fires four shots, moving towards the door and to the right as if to try to see Reeva through the long narrow vertical hole in the door
He may be on his stumps and firing with the gun raised to his eye although as he is moving this would seem odd
He is probably his prosthetics firing from the hip. He had a trapped easy target so as he was moving at the time this would seem more likely
The bullet holes are not tightly grouped and not consistent with double tapped shots.
The light has been on all the time so he can see clearly
After the first shot shatters her hip Reeva has about 1.5 seconds to fall back onto the magazine rack where a ricochet hits her
The next two shots hit her in the arm and head, She screamed as long as she could but it died away after the last shot.
The screams dying away after the last shot were heard by the Bergers and Mrs Stipp
Estelle van der Merwe describes silence after the shooting
When Mr Stipp goes back on the balcony and hears a man shouting "help" "help" "help"
Estelle van der Merwe heard a womans voice crying for help. Her husband said it was Oscar
Closer neighbours heard a man crying out and crying in pain
Security arrive and talk to the Stipps on their balcony
Mr Stipp again went to the other balcony and watches Security leave
Mr Stipp sees a light coloured figure moving from right to left through the bathroom window
Mrs Stipp initially reported the same but retracted this when she realised it was her husbands recollection.
She also "remembered" the event before the final shots not after. This was to be challenged during the defence part.
Mr Stipp said the bathroom and toilet lights did not change at any time
Mrs Stipp said the bathroom and toilet lights did not change at any time
Oscar with prosthetics now on, probably realising the terrible truth of what he had done, pulled out the rest of the panel, got the key opened the door and dragged her out.
It was as he was breaking down the rest of the panel that the bullet hole that Col Vermeulen pointed out caused a crack in the wood to deviate.
It was only 1 hole that showed this effect.
Oscar horrified at what he has done picks up Reeva and carries her downstairs where he is met by Security and later Dr Stipp.
Think you are right. Pre the break in the trial we had OP tying himself in knots and then this buffoon, both spouting nonsense on and on. Nel just spun it out until they got to a nice place to stop. OP's first witness other than himself thoroughly discredited and the point firmly rammed home.
Now Nel has a couple of weeks to ponder how to spit out possibly better 'expert' witnesses than the first pair... unless next up is Dixon's sidekick:D as a tasty little treat for Nel.... "Milady I was pretending to be legless for Mr Dixon... we measured this with our eyes."
Nobody is besmirching Reeva's good name, merely speculating as to what may have triggered OP's over reaction.
What, to any normal person would be unimportant, to a narcistic, egocentric and jealous man could have so enraged him that he shot her dead.
Just one thing, If Reeva could see OP through a hole in the door and could see he had a gun, would she have perhaps made herself smaller and/or tried to get herself behind the wall in the toilet, or even tried to break the window with the magazine rack?
Great write up though.
Thank you, on Tramadol for a very, very bad back and for some reason I feel very woozy tonight,
don't know they poster is getting soo upset. it could be a reason
i read he accused her of flirting with her mates husband....that is some serious jealousy.
i really don't know why she stayed:(
maybe but when in fear you don't think and everything happens so fast
if thats what happened and i believe he killed her in rage, he really is a twisted nasty piece of work. To do such a thing and lie to her parents etc...he is just sc*m imo.
Great post, I wish we had a "like" button
My opinion is that he was so overwhelmed by Nel's slaughtering he didn't realise he had started lying
Porky .. I have written the post number down (I will never find it again if I don't) as I am going to read this tomorrow. My head is about to blow up and in a way I am glad there is a 2 week break, I need a rest or my brain does
Maybe but I think surely if Reeva was screaming for her life it could be a natural reaction to curl up or hide rather than simply stand there.
It's difficult isn't it, some people freeze, many people curl up in to a ball.
Poor Reeva, horrendous to say the least.
There are still a few things that do not quite make sense.
If neighbours heard oscar in so much distress did he really shoot her deliberately in cold blood just moments before?
Would the crack in the door let in enough light for the Stipps to think the light was on in there?
Why was M. Burger unable to hear these bat noises which are similar to a gun going off apparently ... Yet the sound of arguing kept her awake and she heard the screaming?
So chilling. It made me cry for Reeva again. Great write up.
I am not in the slightest s bit upset. I have said repeatedly that we will never know what caused the row. Repeating gossip as anything more than that, gossip, is just speculation.
Several times this thread has gone seriously of track as gossip is repeated as fact . It's worth saying what is pure speculation unless there is a source that is verifiable.