I generally find the classic series to be much 'darker' than the renewed series. It's just more understated, as opposed to some of the overblown melodrama people are citing in this thread.
Look at a story like Caves of Androzani: they would never make an episode like that now. There's no moral, no 'good' winning over 'evil', the Doctor doesn't help anybody (except for Peri). They just materialize into a bad situation, caught between a number of equally morally ambiguous warring factions. Nothing gets resolved and then they barely make it out with their lives (arguably the 5th Doctor doesn't even do that, if you follow the RTD equating of regeneration with death). Imagine an episode like that now. It won't happen.
Look at the first ever serial. The same thing happens with the cavemen. They get caught up in a power struggle, get captured, (barely) escape with their lives, flee to the TARDIS and get the Hell out of there. And of course, there's the scene where Ian has to stop the Doctor caving the caveman's skull in with a rock. And what about the scene where they watch the two rival cavemen fight and their looks of horror as one is slain.
I love the classic series for these kinds of things.
Doctor Who cannot get darker than presenting a realistic world where the Doctor can't use his magic to stop bad things happening or protect innocent people. He WON'T save us from these monsters. Furthermore, those monsters are simply ourselves.
Totally agree about all the comments on Androzani, it was indeed a unique story and a sign of things to come in Season 22. The other scene that I always find dark is when Stotz has a knife to Krelper's throat and has his head over a cliff while threatening to shove a suicide pill of sorts down his throat. Truly a disturbing scene.
As for 100,000 BC, I mentioned in the story thread the other day about that fight at the end between Kal and Za and the First Doctor's initial hostility, which at times bordered on murderous and callousness. It didn't get much worse than that in 60's Who.
Everyone dies in Attack of the Cybermen too, and Lyttons hands being crushed by two Cybermen, dripping with blood. I also found the process of Cyber conversion depicted in this story to be far more chilling than the slightly cartoonish, itchy and scratchy style, depiction in NuWho.
And then there's the scream that the Play School presenter gave out as she was gunned down in Resurrection of the Daleks. They gunned down a Play School presenter for crying out loud! That stayed with me for quite some time.
Agree with this also, many of the deaths in Resurrection were disturbing because they were of innocent people, like the old man in the alleyway at the beginning, the man on the river whom Tegan initially tries to get help from on and ultimately as you have mentioned, the Professor, for whom if you were a young Play School viewer at the time must have been equally horrifying!
Also think Vengeance On Varos got really dark with it's deaths sometimes. The men in the acid bath, the vine jungle and some of the other deaths, very gruesome.
I generally find the classic series to be much 'darker' than the renewed series. It's just more understated, as opposed to some of the overblown melodrama people are citing in this thread.
Some of the C21st series stuff is very powerful, but a lot of it is OTT orchestral-strings-music stuff.
The Cyber-conversion, and Yvonne's realisation of what is to happen, is a terrifying moment. Lynda's cold and lonely death on the spacestation. Richard Wilson and the gas mask.
From the C20th series, I agree with the final moments of Inferno pt.6 (the wall of lava rolling towards the characters as Petra screams and turns away: a harrowing moment).
Also, Katarina's death is horrible. On the soundtrack CD, the screams followed by absolute silence, before the Doctor's shaken voice stutters in ... very powerful.
Everyone dies in Attack of the Cybermen too, and Lyttons hands being crushed by two Cybermen, dripping with blood. I also found the process of Cyber conversion depicted in this story to be far more chilling than the slightly cartoonish, itchy and scratchy style, depiction in NuWho.
And then there's the scream that the Play School presenter gave out as she was gunned down in Resurrection of the Daleks. They gunned down a Play School presenter for crying out loud! That stayed with me for quite some time.
Not everybody dies in Attack. Rost and Threst are still knocking about at the end of it.
Chloe Ashcroft being machine-gunned in the back is a horrible moment. I have a number of real problems with Eric Saward's writing, and the pointless and unnecessary killing of characters is one of the biggies. Preston in Warriors of the Deep; Brian Glover and chums in Attack; Chloe Ashcroft, Rula Lenska and others in Resurrection; Professor Kyle in Earthshock. Tasambeker, the DJ, Natasha and Grigory in Revelation. There's no need for it.
Another moment that has been overlooked so far is Max Stael shooting himself (offscreen, but still audible) in image of the Fendahl.
Barbara nearly being raped in The Keys Of Marinus
Oscar being pointlessly stabbed in The Two Doctors
And, a more subtle one, but in The Ark In Space, when it turns out that the only reason the Wirrn want the ark is that human colonists straight up wiped out every baby Wirrn to colonise a planet, Vira's reaction being a cold smile and a comment about mankind surviving.
The 2nd Doctors apparent willingness to sacrifice Jamie if it will stop the Daleks. Ultimately the situation changes but you were left with the lingering doubt of whether or not the Doctor would have gone ahead with it. You just feel that the Doctor would have seriously done it. Shame the story is never likely to be recovered.
Hmm..although I am by no means a Rose lover, RTD's surprising move to have the Doctor dump her back in parallel-land with an unstable clone of himself was pretty damn cold and dark.
The end of the War Games was pretty dark too...the Doctor's desperation to get away...and failing. His sad goodbye to Jame and Zoe, knowing full well they'd get their memories wiped.
The Doctor standing with a big gun, about to blow the crap out of a lone Dalek, with Rose asking him "What about you? What have you become?"
The end of Genesis with Davros getting exterminated by his own creations and the Dalek's promise that they would return despite the Doctor's upbeat voiceover at the end.
Classic Who is peppered with dark moments, there are so many to choose from. But the two that stand out for me are the ‘human puddles’ left by the androids in episode one of Earthshock, and the disturbing way The Master murders Tegan’s Aunt Vanessa in Logopolis (laughing his head off as he kills her, likes it’s the funniest thing he’s ever done).
In New Who, I don’t think much compares with The Impossible Planet/The Satan Pit in terms of darkness.
the ‘human puddles’ left by the androids in episode one of Earthshock, and the disturbing way The Master murders Tegan’s Aunt Vanessa in Logopolis (laughing his head off as he kills her, likes it’s the funniest thing he’s ever done).
It always distrubed me that, at the end of Time Flight, Tegan was dropped off at Heathrow Airport just an hour or so after Aunt Vanessa was murdered.
I would imagine the police would be asking Tegan quite a few questions, like how she got to the airport so quickly when she was last seen with her Aunt Vanessa in a broken-down car.
It always distrubed me that, at the end of Time Flight, Tegan was dropped off at Heathrow Airport just an hour or so after Aunt Vanessa was murdered.
I would imagine the police would be asking Tegan quite a few questions, like how she got to the airport so quickly when she was last seen with her Aunt Vanessa in a broken-down car.
The poor woman was never mentioned again.
Not even when Tegan met up with her dopey cousin in Amsterdam, nor when she saw her Grandfather in The Awakening (though she barely exchanged more than a couple of words with him...)
& a Brilliant display of Whovian knowledge! :cool:
There are occasions, I think, when you can see that it's the companions who save the day when they challenge the Doctor over his actions. Like Rose versus the Ninth Doctor in 'Dalek.' But maybe that's the hallmark of the Doctor's friends, sometimes someone needs to steady his hand & pull him back from the brink.
For my two-penny worth: the whole of Season 3 was probably the darkest of the Russell T.-era, but also (as mentioned above) The Impossible Planet/The Satan Pit, the cyberconversion factories in 'The Age of Steel' & the final death of Madame de Pompadour before the Doctor could make it back to her. Also: Clara's sacrifice to restore the Doctor's timeline at Trenzalore made me quiver a little bit , especially since the two of them had only just discovered each other & Series 7 was spent uncovering each other's identity.
Special mention to the passing of Amy & Rory in Manhattan. That shocked me :eek: inasmuch as I think it was the first time we'd been visibly presented with a companion's death on-screen for quite some time. At least all the modern companions got to live in one way or another, but Amy & Rory got blasted out of their natural timeline + there was nothing #11 could actually do about it! In fact, I wonder if their deaths may have marked the beginning of the end for the Eleventh Doctor...
Nice posts guys! Uh, if 'nice' is the word... Anyone want to counteract this thread with "The Happiest Things"...?
+1 for Cyber-conversions, particularly in NuWho. The saws, knives, sparks and screaming is really quite horrific, especially juxtaposed with 'In the Jungle'! I hope we get more of that when we see the Cybermen again (not in a sadistic way...). I really disliked the conversion in Closing Time; conversion should be a completely irreversible and violent process, not just putting a Cyberman mask over your face. And then beating it with love.
Also, good shoutouts to Turn Left and Water of Mars. Two of my favourite episodes... Not sure what that says about me.
The poor woman was never mentioned again.
Not even when Tegan met up with her dopey cousin in Amsterdam, nor when she saw her Grandfather in The Awakening (though she barely exchanged more than a couple of words with him...)
There is one moment, very fleeting if memory serves (and please bear in mind that I am old enough to have seen Jon Pertwee's Who, so my memory isn't what it used to be). Its in Enlightenment when a room is created especially for Tegan and it includes a photograph of Aunt Vanessa - and I am sure Tegan name-checks her then. But its the only time.
But Who, at that time, didn't really ever consider the impact these things had on companions. Nyssa's dad was murdered by The Master and her entire planet then destroyed by him. So she fainted (once) and that was it. Never mentioned again!
There is one moment, very fleeting if memory serves (and please bear in mind that I am old enough to have seen Jon Pertwee's Who, so my memory isn't what it used to be). Its in Enlightenment when a room is created especially for Tegan and it includes a photograph of Aunt Vanessa - and I am sure Tegan name-checks her then. But its the only time.
But Who, at that time, didn't really ever consider the impact these things had on companions. Nyssa's dad was murdered by The Master and her entire planet then destroyed by him. So she fainted (once) and that was it. Never mentioned again!
and yet when New Who dares to actually try and deal with the emotional fall out from such events in at least a semi believable way it often gets accused of 'melodrama' by some. Bizarre.
Don't get me wrong. I love Classic Who as well and it worked for its time but such writing would just look ridiculous these days.
The Waters of Mars is very dark for Who. Came out of that absolutely speechless. Knowing what was going to happen, watching these people with all their hope, watching the Doctor struggle with his knowledge, watching the The Flood gradually pick them off one by one, Time Lord Victorious, and finally, Adelaide taking her own life at the end. Then the Ood appeared and I knew I'd just witnessed the best hour of Who ever recorded.
and yet when New Who dares to actually try and deal with the emotional fall out from such events in at least a semi believable way it often gets accused of 'melodrama' by some. Bizarre. Don't get me wrong. I love Classic Who as well and it worked for its time but such writing would just look ridiculous these days.
I am in no way disagreeing with you. And its really lovely that in the Big Finish audio adventures, some of these untold stories are being told.
and yet when New Who dares to actually try and deal with the emotional fall out from such events in at least a semi believable way it often gets accused of 'melodrama' by some. Bizarre.
Don't get me wrong. I love Classic Who as well and it worked for its time but such writing would just look ridiculous these days.
Ever watched Waterloo Road? It does look ridiculous, lol.
The Doctor, without a companion to mediate, becomes increasingly out of his depth with a group of people that do not know him from Adam. His sometimes arrogant charm in this nervy confined space just becomes arrogant. 'Because I'm clever' Genius writing.
Plus David Tennant and Lesley Sharp on phenomenal form throughout.
'Dark' seems like such a buzz word to associate with the show. I love many of the scenes mentioned so far but many seem dark in different ways - dark as in sadness, dark as in mature themes and topical issues, dark as in blunt violence etc. I'll try to cover them separately
The End of the World (1.02) - I thought this was a very early on point to explore the idea that The Doctor isn't always the saviour of the world. The Doctor took no mercy on Cassandra as she died (the first time) and then looked on as the Earth was destroyed as well. It really drove home a sense of mortality, and the moral was that you appreciate life and it's simple joys while you can. There won't always be someone out there to save you, and one day you're time will be up...no matter who or where you are.
Dalek (1.06) - The only instance I've seen of The Doctor pointing a gun directly at his companion, more specifically at Rose. It went against the Doctor's usually pacifist nature that not only did he want that Dalek dead more than anything else, he was daring and willing to let his closest friend stare down the barrel of a gun in pursuit of it.
Boom Town (1.11) - I think Doctor Who is often at its darkest when it tones down the 'alien' and ramps up the 'human'. The show isn't afraid to show our flaws and monstrosity from an outside perspective like that of The Doctor, just as much as it sings our praises and strengths. Boom Town is one such example, with The Doctor in total control of a woman's life. While not 'dark' in the typical sense, the fact that the supposed hero made a woman plead and cry for her life to be spared was hugely emotional, and a very good moral scenario that for once was given time to breathe in the episode.
The Parting of the Ways (1.13) - RTD went all out with his first finale, and turned it into a bloodbath by the end. While the death of Lynda was tragic, and the abandonment of Jack was also quite bleak, it was the threat of the Daleks which I thought were dark. The God complex of the Emperor was an intriguing development and brought thought-provoking character developments to all humans, Timelords and Daleks involved. Darker still was how they came about. While Bad Wolf was dark in that it saw millions of contestants being killed inside the games, The Parting of the Ways took it to a questionably darker depth by revealing the 'lost' humans had been bred as Dalek-kind... the sheer hatred that humanity had for itself had been what gave birth to these Daleks and that was a very dark, original way to bring them back. But what I think was darker still was the very harsh monotony that Rose's home life had brought - it didn't avoid or mollycoddle the truth of living as a young Londoner on a tough estate in a time of unemployment. Rose would rather be in a deadly war against evil war machines than go back to her everyday life. It was a harsh, dark reality that the world doesn't give all people the chance to be the best of themselves or live your life in a worthwhile way.
The Christmas Invasion (2X) - Sharing this spot with The Stolen Earth for a drawn-out plot point, regarding Harriet Jones. The Doctor's assumption of authority over Harriet brought her downfall. In turn, this paved the way for Harold Saxon which brought the Doctor a year from hell. Beyond that, The Doctor did fail to save the day in The Stolen Earth and it cost Harriet her life. It was a dark confrontation between characters who had been great friends in his previous incarnation - ironically an incarnation who was far less hospitable and social.
School Reunion (2.03) - Not dark in its own right, but it admitted a dark reality which was that some things are worth getting your heart broken for. Sarah Jane was confronted with the reality of every day life that Rose managed to escape in The Parting of the Ways, but here that kind of ending is shown to have some kind of inevitability. The dark reality is that The Doctor won't be able to travel with you forever and one day you will either wither away and die or be faced with a life of hard-to-avoid monotony.
The Girl in the Fireplace (2.04) - A brief, emotionally dark bit which was the Doctor's failure to reunite with Madame de Pompadour before her death. It was saddening, and left her living in a hope that never got realised.
Rise of the Cybermen, The Age of Steel, Army of Ghosts, Doomsday (2.05-2.06, 2.12, 2.13) - The Cyber-conversion is a brutal and violent process... tearing the body to shreds whilst you are still alive and concious. The screams are what make it really intimidating, but the imagination makes it all the worse. All those razor blades and needles and saws tearing through your flesh as you watch. Darkest of all was the conversion of Yvonne Hartman who not only knew what was coming, but also faced an incompleted conversion and was fully aware of the process she'd endured. Again, the imagination runs wild... she would have been able to see her own dead body (or rather severed parts of it). It's quite grotesque for Doctor Who... and thankfully not overused so far (even if the Cybermen have lacked a decent story since the second series).
The Impossible Planet/The Satan Pit (2.08-2.09) - This explored dark ideas, rather than being specifically dark itself. The exploration of religion and focus on Satanic aspects of religion was very interesting, as were the rather adult references when the Beast tries to unsettle the crew. The show seldom explores a spiritual side, but it's always been quite good when it has. The lack of a complete resolution and the ideas at work here make this a dark tale in a way like no other from Nu-Who.
The Runaway Bride (3X) - Perhaps what I consider to be the darkest scene in Nu-Who, and if not then it comes close. The scene where the Doctor kills the Racnoss children in it's own way, and toned down for a family audience, was as grim as the show has dared to go. Not only do we see the Empress crying in despair at the death of her children, we also see a Doctor who could have very well seen the same with his own for all we know (note the first reference to Gallifrey in Nu-Who just before this scene occurs). The darkness of the scene was summed up later on in Series 4's Partner's in Crime - The Doctor says of the Adipose "They're just children, they can't help where they came from" and Donna replies that it 'makes a change from last time'. Donna is aware of the Doctor's darkness and that has never been more evident here... there's no denying it even from himself. He drowned thousands of children to death on Christmas night. That's some dark stuff right there.
The Family of Blood (3.09) - Most people refer to the epilogue as 'dark', and while it is I think this episode offered something with a much greater but much more subtle dark undertone to it. When Joan asks whether anyone would have died in that village were it not for The Doctor choosing it on a whim, he is left speechless. There were children who died in that village because of him, an entire boys school was threatened and a close community was torn apart. While done with the best intentions, it brought up the dark notion that The Doctor is responsible for as much death as that which he averts.
Last of the Timelords (3.13) - Like The End of the World, I thought the "everything has it's time" idea was explored wonderfully here. Humanity goes from strength to strength across the ages, but it doesn't avoid or rewrite the fact that the very last humans that will ever live were murderous, regressed and warped creatures doomed to die scared in the darkness alone.
Voyage of the Damned (4X) gets an honorary mention for being 'bleak'. It killed off so many nice characters, sparing one that no one would have 'chosen' to survive.
Planet of the Ood (4.03) - The moral issues surrounding the Ood were plentiful, and most of them were dark. Treated like slaves, tortured and lobotomised it was an insight into the worst of humanity, and how our species doesn't question how we thrive so well because the truth is too terrible. Halpen's plan to use the old 'foot and mouth' solution was the cherry on top of a dark, rich cake of moral issues - by doing so he had accepted superiority over the Ood, placed humanity ahead of them, and his own business ahead of that. Similarly, his transformation was a very dark and quite graphic development.
Forest of the Dead (4.09) - Donna's world inside Cal was bleak enough as it was in my opinion. But the fact that she believed it was real, only to have her children taken from her and later have that whole reality confirmed as a lie was something quite dark for the show to go into. Tragically, Donna was presented with four worlds in Series 4 - The Doctor's world, her mother's world, her parallel world, and Cal's world - out of all of them the only one she was able to live in and remember was the one she'd tried to escape from in the first place.
Midnight (4.10) - A dark episode in general, in fact it's often this one that people mention first. It highlighted the worst of humanity, and how the best of the Doctor really is his friends - that for all his heroics, he can be just as weak as the rest of us. Added factors are that Sky's initial trauma was something the show doesn't usually dwell on so convincingly (well done Lesley Sharp) and that we never find out what it was that terrorised the bus.
Turn Left (4.11) - Pretty much designed to touch upon all the darkest developments, and rewrite them with an unhappy ending. As the episode winds towards its end, it presents us with 'labour camps', which were a topical issue that could have gone over the head of many children but was lingered on just enough to make a child ask a parent what it was that was going on.
Journey's End (4.13) - Donna's memory wipe remains for me the most traumatic companion exit of all, and as I mentioned above - for all the worlds Donna was presented with in Series 4, the only one she could live in and remember was the one she'd tried to escape from.
The Waters of Mars - After a story that plunged into depressing deaths and developments, I think the suicide of Adelaide was the worst of it. I don't think anything like it has been presented quite as such in NuWho before or since.
The Beast Below (5.02) - Another episode that showed us the darkest of humanity. It was again another brilliant moral issue at hand, but shows the extents that people will go to to survive.
Amy's Choice (5.07) - The Dreamlord was a terrifically written character, and the perfect taunt. Those taunts played against The Doctor brilliantly... there were various moments in the episode where he would say something that was quite demeaning to the Doctor's character.
Vincent and the Doctor (5.10) - A darkness beautifully done, this presented Van Gogh's bipolar in a very convincing way. It was given a bittersweet ending, and the earlier scenes showing his depression getting the better of him were very hard-hitting. No aliens, or spaceships or time getting rewritten to make things better - a man tormented by his own mind, unable to escape it.
A Christmas Carol (6X) - If it wasn't bad enough that Kazran was the man he was because of a bitter adolescence, the fact that he had to confront losing Abigail at the end of it all was even harsher. Thankfully that loss was off-screen.
The Girl Who Waited (6.10) - Forcing Rory to choose between his wife and the version created by the events of the episode was a dark thing for the Doctor to do. It was cruel and unfair, and shows how a life with The Doctor can mess with your head as much as it can amaze it.
Asylum of the Daleks (7.01) - The scenes of Oswin's conversion were both convincingly acted and though simple, brilliantly put together. It visualised what the victims at the end of Series 1 would have all faced, and put all that terror and fright into a character we were made to love across the episode...and again as the series went on. I wish I didn't prefer Oswin to Clara
The Name of the Doctor (7.13) - This one is cheating a bit, as it was undone (terribly) but the death of Jenny was a dark place for the finale to go. I love the character to pieces, but I was so convinced by it, and it really upped the ante for the story. Too easily undone it lost its charm and power, but Jenny's temporary murder was the closest we'd come to a cold blooded killing of a show regular.
The Doctor, without a companion to mediate, becomes increasingly out of his depth with a group of people that do not know him from Adam. His sometimes arrogant charm in this nervy confined space just becomes arrogant. 'Because I'm clever' Genius writing.
'Dark' seems like such a buzz word to associate with the show. I love many of the scenes mentioned so far but many seem dark in different ways - dark as in sadness, dark as in mature themes and topical issues, dark as in blunt violence etc. I'll try to cover them separately
The End of the World (1.02) - I thought this was a very early on point to explore the idea that The Doctor isn't always the saviour of the world. The Doctor took no mercy on Cassandra as she died (the first time) and then looked on as the Earth was destroyed as well. It really drove home a sense of mortality, and the moral was that you appreciate life and it's simple joys while you can. There won't always be someone out there to save you, and one day you're time will be up...no matter who or where you are.
Dalek (1.06) - The only instance I've seen of The Doctor pointing a gun directly at his companion, more specifically at Rose. It went against the Doctor's usually pacifist nature that not only did he want that Dalek dead more than anything else, he was daring and willing to let his closest friend stare down the barrel of a gun in pursuit of it.
Boom Town (1.11) - I think Doctor Who is often at its darkest when it tones down the 'alien' and ramps up the 'human'. The show isn't afraid to show our flaws and monstrosity from an outside perspective like that of The Doctor, just as much as it sings our praises and strengths. Boom Town is one such example, with The Doctor in total control of a woman's life. While not 'dark' in the typical sense, the fact that the supposed hero made a woman plead and cry for her life to be spared was hugely emotional, and a very good moral scenario that for once was given time to breathe in the episode.
The Parting of the Ways (1.13) - RTD went all out with his first finale, and turned it into a bloodbath by the end. While the death of Lynda was tragic, and the abandonment of Jack was also quite bleak, it was the threat of the Daleks which I thought were dark. The God complex of the Emperor was an intriguing development and brought thought-provoking character developments to all humans, Timelords and Daleks involved. Darker still was how they came about. While Bad Wolf was dark in that it saw millions of contestants being killed inside the games, The Parting of the Ways took it to a questionably darker depth by revealing the 'lost' humans had been bred as Dalek-kind... the sheer hatred that humanity had for itself had been what gave birth to these Daleks and that was a very dark, original way to bring them back. But what I think was darker still was the very harsh monotony that Rose's home life had brought - it didn't avoid or mollycoddle the truth of living as a young Londoner on a tough estate in a time of unemployment. Rose would rather be in a deadly war against evil war machines than go back to her everyday life. It was a harsh, dark reality that the world doesn't give all people the chance to be the best of themselves or live your life in a worthwhile way.
The Christmas Invasion (2X) - Sharing this spot with The Stolen Earth for a drawn-out plot point, regarding Harriet Jones. The Doctor's assumption of authority over Harriet brought her downfall. In turn, this paved the way for Harold Saxon which brought the Doctor a year from hell. Beyond that, The Doctor did fail to save the day in The Stolen Earth and it cost Harriet her life. It was a dark confrontation between characters who had been great friends in his previous incarnation - ironically an incarnation who was far less hospitable and social.
School Reunion (2.03) - Not dark in its own right, but it admitted a dark reality which was that some things are worth getting your heart broken for. Sarah Jane was confronted with the reality of every day life that Rose managed to escape in The Parting of the Ways, but here that kind of ending is shown to have some kind of inevitability. The dark reality is that The Doctor won't be able to travel with you forever and one day you will either wither away and die or be faced with a life of hard-to-avoid monotony.
The Girl in the Fireplace (2.04) - A brief, emotionally dark bit which was the Doctor's failure to reunite with Madame de Pompadour before her death. It was saddening, and left her living in a hope that never got realised.
Rise of the Cybermen, The Age of Steel, Army of Ghosts, Doomsday (2.05-2.06, 2.12, 2.13) - The Cyber-conversion is a brutal and violent process... tearing the body to shreds whilst you are still alive and concious. The screams are what make it really intimidating, but the imagination makes it all the worse. All those razor blades and needles and saws tearing through your flesh as you watch. Darkest of all was the conversion of Yvonne Hartman who not only knew what was coming, but also faced an incompleted conversion and was fully aware of the process she'd endured. Again, the imagination runs wild... she would have been able to see her own dead body (or rather severed parts of it). It's quite grotesque for Doctor Who... and thankfully not overused so far (even if the Cybermen have lacked a decent story since the second series).
The Impossible Planet/The Satan Pit (2.08-2.09) - This explored dark ideas, rather than being specifically dark itself. The exploration of religion and focus on Satanic aspects of religion was very interesting, as were the rather adult references when the Beast tries to unsettle the crew. The show seldom explores a spiritual side, but it's always been quite good when it has. The lack of a complete resolution and the ideas at work here make this a dark tale in a way like no other from Nu-Who.
The Runaway Bride (3X) - Perhaps what I consider to be the darkest scene in Nu-Who, and if not then it comes close. The scene where the Doctor kills the Racnoss children in it's own way, and toned down for a family audience, was as grim as the show has dared to go. Not only do we see the Empress crying in despair at the death of her children, we also see a Doctor who could have very well seen the same with his own for all we know (note the first reference to Gallifrey in Nu-Who just before this scene occurs). The darkness of the scene was summed up later on in Series 4's Partner's in Crime - The Doctor says of the Adipose "They're just children, they can't help where they came from" and Donna replies that it 'makes a change from last time'. Donna is aware of the Doctor's darkness and that has never been more evident here... there's no denying it even from himself. He drowned thousands of children to death on Christmas night. That's some dark stuff right there.
The Family of Blood (3.09) - Most people refer to the epilogue as 'dark', and while it is I think this episode offered something with a much greater but much more subtle dark undertone to it. When Joan asks whether anyone would have died in that village were it not for The Doctor choosing it on a whim, he is left speechless. There were children who died in that village because of him, an entire boys school was threatened and a close community was torn apart. While done with the best intentions, it brought up the dark notion that The Doctor is responsible for as much death as that which he averts.
Last of the Timelords (3.13) - Like The End of the World, I thought the "everything has it's time" idea was explored wonderfully here. Humanity goes from strength to strength across the ages, but it doesn't avoid or rewrite the fact that the very last humans that will ever live were murderous, regressed and warped creatures doomed to die scared in the darkness alone.
Voyage of the Damned (4X) gets an honorary mention for being 'bleak'. It killed off so many nice characters, sparing one that no one would have 'chosen' to survive.
Planet of the Ood (4.03) - The moral issues surrounding the Ood were plentiful, and most of them were dark. Treated like slaves, tortured and lobotomised it was an insight into the worst of humanity, and how our species doesn't question how we thrive so well because the truth is too terrible. Halpen's plan to use the old 'foot and mouth' solution was the cherry on top of a dark, rich cake of moral issues - by doing so he had accepted superiority over the Ood, placed humanity ahead of them, and his own business ahead of that. Similarly, his transformation was a very dark and quite graphic development.
Forest of the Dead (4.09) - Donna's world inside Cal was bleak enough as it was in my opinion. But the fact that she believed it was real, only to have her children taken from her and later have that whole reality confirmed as a lie was something quite dark for the show to go into. Tragically, Donna was presented with four worlds in Series 4 - The Doctor's world, her mother's world, her parallel world, and Cal's world - out of all of them the only one she was able to live in and remember was the one she'd tried to escape from in the first place.
Midnight (4.10) - A dark episode in general, in fact it's often this one that people mention first. It highlighted the worst of humanity, and how the best of the Doctor really is his friends - that for all his heroics, he can be just as weak as the rest of us. Added factors are that Sky's initial trauma was something the show doesn't usually dwell on so convincingly (well done Lesley Sharp) and that we never find out what it was that terrorised the bus.
Turn Left (4.11) - Pretty much designed to touch upon all the darkest developments, and rewrite them with an unhappy ending. As the episode winds towards its end, it presents us with 'labour camps', which were a topical issue that could have gone over the head of many children but was lingered on just enough to make a child ask a parent what it was that was going on.
Journey's End (4.13) - Donna's memory wipe remains for me the most traumatic companion exit of all, and as I mentioned above - for all the worlds Donna was presented with in Series 4, the only one she could live in and remember was the one she'd tried to escape from.
The Waters of Mars - After a story that plunged into depressing deaths and developments, I think the suicide of Adelaide was the worst of it. I don't think anything like it has been presented quite as such in NuWho before or since.
The Beast Below (5.02) - Another episode that showed us the darkest of humanity. It was again another brilliant moral issue at hand, but shows the extents that people will go to to survive.
Amy's Choice (5.07) - The Dreamlord was a terrifically written character, and the perfect taunt. Those taunts played against The Doctor brilliantly... there were various moments in the episode where he would say something that was quite demeaning to the Doctor's character.
Vincent and the Doctor (5.10) - A darkness beautifully done, this presented Van Gogh's bipolar in a very convincing way. It was given a bittersweet ending, and the earlier scenes showing his depression getting the better of him were very hard-hitting. No aliens, or spaceships or time getting rewritten to make things better - a man tormented by his own mind, unable to escape it.
A Christmas Carol (6X) - If it wasn't bad enough that Kazran was the man he was because of a bitter adolescence, the fact that he had to confront losing Abigail at the end of it all was even harsher. Thankfully that loss was off-screen.
The Girl Who Waited (6.10) - Forcing Rory to choose between his wife and the version created by the events of the episode was a dark thing for the Doctor to do. It was cruel and unfair, and shows how a life with The Doctor can mess with your head as much as it can amaze it.
Asylum of the Daleks (7.01) - The scenes of Oswin's conversion were both convincingly acted and though simple, brilliantly put together. It visualised what the victims at the end of Series 1 would have all faced, and put all that terror and fright into a character we were made to love across the episode...and again as the series went on. I wish I didn't prefer Oswin to Clara
The Name of the Doctor (7.13) - This one is cheating a bit, as it was undone (terribly) but the death of Jenny was a dark place for the finale to go. I love the character to pieces, but I was so convinced by it, and it really upped the ante for the story. Too easily undone it lost its charm and power, but Jenny's temporary murder was the closest we'd come to a cold blooded killing of a show regular.
Loved reading this - excellent post. That's an article right there.
Some fantastic posts above. moments I'd forgotten amongst them.. But for me, head and shoulders above all other 'moments' was the glass dalek in Revelation of the daleks... Asking, in fact pleading with his daughter natasha to kill him as the conditioning takes hold.. Really powerful, truly dark..
Comments
Totally agree about all the comments on Androzani, it was indeed a unique story and a sign of things to come in Season 22. The other scene that I always find dark is when Stotz has a knife to Krelper's throat and has his head over a cliff while threatening to shove a suicide pill of sorts down his throat. Truly a disturbing scene.
As for 100,000 BC, I mentioned in the story thread the other day about that fight at the end between Kal and Za and the First Doctor's initial hostility, which at times bordered on murderous and callousness. It didn't get much worse than that in 60's Who.
Agree with this also, many of the deaths in Resurrection were disturbing because they were of innocent people, like the old man in the alleyway at the beginning, the man on the river whom Tegan initially tries to get help from on and ultimately as you have mentioned, the Professor, for whom if you were a young Play School viewer at the time must have been equally horrifying!
Also think Vengeance On Varos got really dark with it's deaths sometimes. The men in the acid bath, the vine jungle and some of the other deaths, very gruesome.
Some of the C21st series stuff is very powerful, but a lot of it is OTT orchestral-strings-music stuff.
The Cyber-conversion, and Yvonne's realisation of what is to happen, is a terrifying moment. Lynda's cold and lonely death on the spacestation. Richard Wilson and the gas mask.
From the C20th series, I agree with the final moments of Inferno pt.6 (the wall of lava rolling towards the characters as Petra screams and turns away: a harrowing moment).
Also, Katarina's death is horrible. On the soundtrack CD, the screams followed by absolute silence, before the Doctor's shaken voice stutters in ... very powerful.
Not everybody dies in Attack. Rost and Threst are still knocking about at the end of it.
Chloe Ashcroft being machine-gunned in the back is a horrible moment. I have a number of real problems with Eric Saward's writing, and the pointless and unnecessary killing of characters is one of the biggies. Preston in Warriors of the Deep; Brian Glover and chums in Attack; Chloe Ashcroft, Rula Lenska and others in Resurrection; Professor Kyle in Earthshock. Tasambeker, the DJ, Natasha and Grigory in Revelation. There's no need for it.
Another moment that has been overlooked so far is Max Stael shooting himself (offscreen, but still audible) in image of the Fendahl.
"The girlie and the freak, although I don't know which is which"
I don't think that there's been many lines as dark as that in the series.
Oscar being pointlessly stabbed in The Two Doctors
And, a more subtle one, but in The Ark In Space, when it turns out that the only reason the Wirrn want the ark is that human colonists straight up wiped out every baby Wirrn to colonise a planet, Vira's reaction being a cold smile and a comment about mankind surviving.
The end of the War Games was pretty dark too...the Doctor's desperation to get away...and failing. His sad goodbye to Jame and Zoe, knowing full well they'd get their memories wiped.
The Doctor standing with a big gun, about to blow the crap out of a lone Dalek, with Rose asking him "What about you? What have you become?"
The end of Genesis with Davros getting exterminated by his own creations and the Dalek's promise that they would return despite the Doctor's upbeat voiceover at the end.
In New Who, I don’t think much compares with The Impossible Planet/The Satan Pit in terms of darkness.
Poor Aunt Vanessa.
I would imagine the police would be asking Tegan quite a few questions, like how she got to the airport so quickly when she was last seen with her Aunt Vanessa in a broken-down car.
The poor woman was never mentioned again.
Not even when Tegan met up with her dopey cousin in Amsterdam, nor when she saw her Grandfather in The Awakening (though she barely exchanged more than a couple of words with him...)
There are occasions, I think, when you can see that it's the companions who save the day when they challenge the Doctor over his actions. Like Rose versus the Ninth Doctor in 'Dalek.' But maybe that's the hallmark of the Doctor's friends, sometimes someone needs to steady his hand & pull him back from the brink.
For my two-penny worth: the whole of Season 3 was probably the darkest of the Russell T.-era, but also (as mentioned above) The Impossible Planet/The Satan Pit, the cyberconversion factories in 'The Age of Steel' & the final death of Madame de Pompadour before the Doctor could make it back to her. Also: Clara's sacrifice to restore the Doctor's timeline at Trenzalore made me quiver a little bit
Special mention to the passing of Amy & Rory in Manhattan. That shocked me :eek: inasmuch as I think it was the first time we'd been visibly presented with a companion's death on-screen for quite some time.
+1 for Cyber-conversions, particularly in NuWho. The saws, knives, sparks and screaming is really quite horrific, especially juxtaposed with 'In the Jungle'! I hope we get more of that when we see the Cybermen again (not in a sadistic way...). I really disliked the conversion in Closing Time; conversion should be a completely irreversible and violent process, not just putting a Cyberman mask over your face. And then beating it with love.
Also, good shoutouts to Turn Left and Water of Mars. Two of my favourite episodes... Not sure what that says about me.
Also, has anyone seen this concept art from 'Dalek'? The torture here looks a lot worse...
https://telestrekoza.com/link-gallery/albums/British_shows/Doctor_Who/Other/Concept_art/Doctor_Who_S1_Concept_Art_25.jpg
https://telestrekoza.com/link-gallery/albums/British_shows/Doctor_Who/Other/Concept_art/Doctor_Who_S1_Concept_Art_24.jpg
There is one moment, very fleeting if memory serves (and please bear in mind that I am old enough to have seen Jon Pertwee's Who, so my memory isn't what it used to be). Its in Enlightenment when a room is created especially for Tegan and it includes a photograph of Aunt Vanessa - and I am sure Tegan name-checks her then. But its the only time.
But Who, at that time, didn't really ever consider the impact these things had on companions. Nyssa's dad was murdered by The Master and her entire planet then destroyed by him. So she fainted (once) and that was it. Never mentioned again!
and yet when New Who dares to actually try and deal with the emotional fall out from such events in at least a semi believable way it often gets accused of 'melodrama' by some. Bizarre.
Don't get me wrong. I love Classic Who as well and it worked for its time but such writing would just look ridiculous these days.
I am in no way disagreeing with you. And its really lovely that in the Big Finish audio adventures, some of these untold stories are being told.
Ever watched Waterloo Road? It does look ridiculous, lol.
The Doctor, without a companion to mediate, becomes increasingly out of his depth with a group of people that do not know him from Adam. His sometimes arrogant charm in this nervy confined space just becomes arrogant. 'Because I'm clever' Genius writing.
Plus David Tennant and Lesley Sharp on phenomenal form throughout.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIYdxvItlE8
The End of the World (1.02) - I thought this was a very early on point to explore the idea that The Doctor isn't always the saviour of the world. The Doctor took no mercy on Cassandra as she died (the first time) and then looked on as the Earth was destroyed as well. It really drove home a sense of mortality, and the moral was that you appreciate life and it's simple joys while you can. There won't always be someone out there to save you, and one day you're time will be up...no matter who or where you are.
Dalek (1.06) - The only instance I've seen of The Doctor pointing a gun directly at his companion, more specifically at Rose. It went against the Doctor's usually pacifist nature that not only did he want that Dalek dead more than anything else, he was daring and willing to let his closest friend stare down the barrel of a gun in pursuit of it.
Boom Town (1.11) - I think Doctor Who is often at its darkest when it tones down the 'alien' and ramps up the 'human'. The show isn't afraid to show our flaws and monstrosity from an outside perspective like that of The Doctor, just as much as it sings our praises and strengths. Boom Town is one such example, with The Doctor in total control of a woman's life. While not 'dark' in the typical sense, the fact that the supposed hero made a woman plead and cry for her life to be spared was hugely emotional, and a very good moral scenario that for once was given time to breathe in the episode.
The Parting of the Ways (1.13) - RTD went all out with his first finale, and turned it into a bloodbath by the end. While the death of Lynda was tragic, and the abandonment of Jack was also quite bleak, it was the threat of the Daleks which I thought were dark. The God complex of the Emperor was an intriguing development and brought thought-provoking character developments to all humans, Timelords and Daleks involved. Darker still was how they came about. While Bad Wolf was dark in that it saw millions of contestants being killed inside the games, The Parting of the Ways took it to a questionably darker depth by revealing the 'lost' humans had been bred as Dalek-kind... the sheer hatred that humanity had for itself had been what gave birth to these Daleks and that was a very dark, original way to bring them back. But what I think was darker still was the very harsh monotony that Rose's home life had brought - it didn't avoid or mollycoddle the truth of living as a young Londoner on a tough estate in a time of unemployment. Rose would rather be in a deadly war against evil war machines than go back to her everyday life. It was a harsh, dark reality that the world doesn't give all people the chance to be the best of themselves or live your life in a worthwhile way.
The Christmas Invasion (2X) - Sharing this spot with The Stolen Earth for a drawn-out plot point, regarding Harriet Jones. The Doctor's assumption of authority over Harriet brought her downfall. In turn, this paved the way for Harold Saxon which brought the Doctor a year from hell. Beyond that, The Doctor did fail to save the day in The Stolen Earth and it cost Harriet her life. It was a dark confrontation between characters who had been great friends in his previous incarnation - ironically an incarnation who was far less hospitable and social.
School Reunion (2.03) - Not dark in its own right, but it admitted a dark reality which was that some things are worth getting your heart broken for. Sarah Jane was confronted with the reality of every day life that Rose managed to escape in The Parting of the Ways, but here that kind of ending is shown to have some kind of inevitability. The dark reality is that The Doctor won't be able to travel with you forever and one day you will either wither away and die or be faced with a life of hard-to-avoid monotony.
The Girl in the Fireplace (2.04) - A brief, emotionally dark bit which was the Doctor's failure to reunite with Madame de Pompadour before her death. It was saddening, and left her living in a hope that never got realised.
Rise of the Cybermen, The Age of Steel, Army of Ghosts, Doomsday (2.05-2.06, 2.12, 2.13) - The Cyber-conversion is a brutal and violent process... tearing the body to shreds whilst you are still alive and concious. The screams are what make it really intimidating, but the imagination makes it all the worse. All those razor blades and needles and saws tearing through your flesh as you watch. Darkest of all was the conversion of Yvonne Hartman who not only knew what was coming, but also faced an incompleted conversion and was fully aware of the process she'd endured. Again, the imagination runs wild... she would have been able to see her own dead body (or rather severed parts of it). It's quite grotesque for Doctor Who... and thankfully not overused so far (even if the Cybermen have lacked a decent story since the second series).
The Impossible Planet/The Satan Pit (2.08-2.09) - This explored dark ideas, rather than being specifically dark itself. The exploration of religion and focus on Satanic aspects of religion was very interesting, as were the rather adult references when the Beast tries to unsettle the crew. The show seldom explores a spiritual side, but it's always been quite good when it has. The lack of a complete resolution and the ideas at work here make this a dark tale in a way like no other from Nu-Who.
The Runaway Bride (3X) - Perhaps what I consider to be the darkest scene in Nu-Who, and if not then it comes close. The scene where the Doctor kills the Racnoss children in it's own way, and toned down for a family audience, was as grim as the show has dared to go. Not only do we see the Empress crying in despair at the death of her children, we also see a Doctor who could have very well seen the same with his own for all we know (note the first reference to Gallifrey in Nu-Who just before this scene occurs). The darkness of the scene was summed up later on in Series 4's Partner's in Crime - The Doctor says of the Adipose "They're just children, they can't help where they came from" and Donna replies that it 'makes a change from last time'. Donna is aware of the Doctor's darkness and that has never been more evident here... there's no denying it even from himself. He drowned thousands of children to death on Christmas night. That's some dark stuff right there.
The Family of Blood (3.09) - Most people refer to the epilogue as 'dark', and while it is I think this episode offered something with a much greater but much more subtle dark undertone to it. When Joan asks whether anyone would have died in that village were it not for The Doctor choosing it on a whim, he is left speechless. There were children who died in that village because of him, an entire boys school was threatened and a close community was torn apart. While done with the best intentions, it brought up the dark notion that The Doctor is responsible for as much death as that which he averts.
Last of the Timelords (3.13) - Like The End of the World, I thought the "everything has it's time" idea was explored wonderfully here. Humanity goes from strength to strength across the ages, but it doesn't avoid or rewrite the fact that the very last humans that will ever live were murderous, regressed and warped creatures doomed to die scared in the darkness alone.
Voyage of the Damned (4X) gets an honorary mention for being 'bleak'. It killed off so many nice characters, sparing one that no one would have 'chosen' to survive.
Planet of the Ood (4.03) - The moral issues surrounding the Ood were plentiful, and most of them were dark. Treated like slaves, tortured and lobotomised it was an insight into the worst of humanity, and how our species doesn't question how we thrive so well because the truth is too terrible. Halpen's plan to use the old 'foot and mouth' solution was the cherry on top of a dark, rich cake of moral issues - by doing so he had accepted superiority over the Ood, placed humanity ahead of them, and his own business ahead of that. Similarly, his transformation was a very dark and quite graphic development.
Forest of the Dead (4.09) - Donna's world inside Cal was bleak enough as it was in my opinion. But the fact that she believed it was real, only to have her children taken from her and later have that whole reality confirmed as a lie was something quite dark for the show to go into. Tragically, Donna was presented with four worlds in Series 4 - The Doctor's world, her mother's world, her parallel world, and Cal's world - out of all of them the only one she was able to live in and remember was the one she'd tried to escape from in the first place.
Midnight (4.10) - A dark episode in general, in fact it's often this one that people mention first. It highlighted the worst of humanity, and how the best of the Doctor really is his friends - that for all his heroics, he can be just as weak as the rest of us. Added factors are that Sky's initial trauma was something the show doesn't usually dwell on so convincingly (well done Lesley Sharp) and that we never find out what it was that terrorised the bus.
Turn Left (4.11) - Pretty much designed to touch upon all the darkest developments, and rewrite them with an unhappy ending. As the episode winds towards its end, it presents us with 'labour camps', which were a topical issue that could have gone over the head of many children but was lingered on just enough to make a child ask a parent what it was that was going on.
Journey's End (4.13) - Donna's memory wipe remains for me the most traumatic companion exit of all, and as I mentioned above - for all the worlds Donna was presented with in Series 4, the only one she could live in and remember was the one she'd tried to escape from.
The Waters of Mars - After a story that plunged into depressing deaths and developments, I think the suicide of Adelaide was the worst of it. I don't think anything like it has been presented quite as such in NuWho before or since.
The Beast Below (5.02) - Another episode that showed us the darkest of humanity. It was again another brilliant moral issue at hand, but shows the extents that people will go to to survive.
Amy's Choice (5.07) - The Dreamlord was a terrifically written character, and the perfect taunt. Those taunts played against The Doctor brilliantly... there were various moments in the episode where he would say something that was quite demeaning to the Doctor's character.
Vincent and the Doctor (5.10) - A darkness beautifully done, this presented Van Gogh's bipolar in a very convincing way. It was given a bittersweet ending, and the earlier scenes showing his depression getting the better of him were very hard-hitting. No aliens, or spaceships or time getting rewritten to make things better - a man tormented by his own mind, unable to escape it.
A Christmas Carol (6X) - If it wasn't bad enough that Kazran was the man he was because of a bitter adolescence, the fact that he had to confront losing Abigail at the end of it all was even harsher. Thankfully that loss was off-screen.
The Girl Who Waited (6.10) - Forcing Rory to choose between his wife and the version created by the events of the episode was a dark thing for the Doctor to do. It was cruel and unfair, and shows how a life with The Doctor can mess with your head as much as it can amaze it.
Asylum of the Daleks (7.01) - The scenes of Oswin's conversion were both convincingly acted and though simple, brilliantly put together. It visualised what the victims at the end of Series 1 would have all faced, and put all that terror and fright into a character we were made to love across the episode...and again as the series went on. I wish I didn't prefer Oswin to Clara
The Name of the Doctor (7.13) - This one is cheating a bit, as it was undone (terribly) but the death of Jenny was a dark place for the finale to go. I love the character to pieces, but I was so convinced by it, and it really upped the ante for the story. Too easily undone it lost its charm and power, but Jenny's temporary murder was the closest we'd come to a cold blooded killing of a show regular.
What a classic. RTD basically looking at the very best of the Twilight Zone and saying 'Oh I can do that!'. Bam! Genius ensues.
Loved reading this - excellent post. That's an article right there.