I know this will probably be removed for being off topic but I know that Rapture TV has hat to become very knowledgeable regarding the law since their disputes began.
So, could you tell me what the fine for not filing your company tax returns on time is?
Cos Rapture is annoyed that Sky won't let him have an EPG slot for relatively less than everyone else agrees to pay so he drags the group through the mud repeatedly and at every opportunity to try and make people agree with him.
Personally I think he's trying to win the argument through attrition, with opposing views loosing the will to live.
Rapture is not trying to get a EPG at a level less than anyone else. Rapture is fighting for what the law says should be the correct price. They are clearly very different.
If you had read the Echostar court documents you would know that NDS transferred secret codes to the UK offices of NDS. Then senior figures at NDS in London transferred the codes onto the US.
Therefore there is a clear criminal and civil offence committed in Britain.
There is no fine if a company has ceased to trade and entered a CVA. What company are you a director of?
If you can't find any argument to defend the NDS actions why do you then resort to trying to change the subject and make claims about Rapture and the Rapture Appeal against Ofcom and BSkyB?
Rapture is not trying to get a EPG at a level less than anyone else. Rapture is fighting for what the law says should be the correct price.
Everyone else has paid, you wanted it for less so thats at a level less than anyone else. Rapture is fighting for what it thinks the law says should be the correct price. Not quite the same thing.
If you had read the Echostar court documents you would know that NDS transferred secret codes to the UK offices of NDS. Then senior figures at NDS in London transferred the codes onto the US.
Therefore there is a clear criminal and civil offence committed in Britain.
As I said, they are not being prosecuted for a criminal offence. They are being sued. Once again, not quite the same thing.
There is no fine if a company has ceased to trade and entered a CVA. What company are you a director of?
Thank you for answering my question. As to what company i'm a director of, now that would be telling. As I'm here as a private individual I have no obligation to identify myself, and infact doing so is generally thought to be quite stupid.
If you can't find any argument to defend the NDS actions why do you then resort to trying to change the subject and make claims about Rapture and the Rapture Appeal against Ofcom and BSkyB?
Because everything comes down to your vendetta with sky. I'm not making claims, just putting the discussion into perspective. I have already stated that I am not defending NDS and I am not stating that they are innocent.
Everyone else has paid, you wanted it for less so thats at a level less than anyone else. Rapture is fighting for what it thinks the law says should be the correct price. Not quite the same thing.
As I said, they are not being prosecuted for a criminal offence. They are being sued. Once again, not quite the same thing.
Thank you for answering my question. As to what company i'm a director of, now that would be telling. As I'm here as a private individual I have no obligation to identify myself, and infact doing so is generally thought to be quite stupid.
Because everything comes down to your vendetta with sky. I'm not making claims, just putting the discussion into perspective. I have already stated that I am not defending NDS and I am not stating that they are innocent.
No not everyone has paid the same fee. Read the Rapture Appeal transcripts. 4 or 5 others have paid less than the published EPG fee. If you read the documents then you'd know that.
We wouldn't be suprised if criminal charges follow in the near future as the documents include sworn witness statements that confirm the actions.
Criminals are not allowed to hold a broadcast license.
No not everyone has paid the same fee. Read the Rapture Appeal transcripts. 4 or 5 others have paid less than the published EPG fee. If you read the documents then you'd know that.
We wouldn't be suprised if criminal charges follow in the near future as the documents include sworn witness statements that confirm the actions.
Criminals are not allowed to hold a broadcast license.
Haha...are those the sworn statements from the dodgy card dealers?
Once again, I am forced to conclude that if you are indeed at the controls of Rapture, and not in fact a crusading employee going above and beyond, then Rapture is in serious trouble. Your reasoning appears to be something akin to that of a petulant teenager, if that reasoning is leading you to conclude that James or Rupert Murdoch are destined for criminal charges.
Haha...are those the sworn statements from the dodgy card dealers?
Once again, I am forced to conclude that if you are indeed at the controls of Rapture, and not in fact a crusading employee going above and beyond, then Rapture is in serious trouble. Your reasoning appears to be something akin to that of a petulant teenager, if that reasoning is leading you to conclude that James or Rupert Murdoch are destined for criminal charges.
No its nothing to do with 'dodgy card dealers'. If you bothered to read the witness statements you'd see that in fact the witnesses were involved with NDS at a senior level.
Oliver Kommerling was the original engineer that set up the NDS lab and trained the NDS engineers. He has given evidence that he knows that NDS was the source of the pirated smartcard codes. Why would Rapture be in trouble for helping bring attention to the already public legal documents?
James Murdoch was a Director of NDS are you claiming he didn't know anything about these claims?
You clearly need to study the difference between "claims" and "evidence". James Murdoch being a director - why would his knowledge of Kommerling's claims make him culpable, any more than I am for reading them? Perhaps you mean James Murdoch was aware of the activities it is *claimed* took place...well how could you possibly know that, or assume that he must have known? Dear oh dear. If you're alleging that, then you're involving DS in a libel and I expect this thread will be closed imminently.
I'm not saying Rapture would be in trouble for bring documents to attention, i'm saying that you don't seem to have a firm grasp on reality, and for that reason, Rapture is in trouble if you are in any way employed in decision-making.
You clearly need to study the difference between "claims" and "evidence". James Murdoch being a director - why would his knowledge of Kommerling's claims make him culpable, any more than I am for reading them? Perhaps you mean James Murdoch was aware of the activities it is *claimed* took place...well how could you possibly know that, or assume that he must have known? Dear oh dear. If you're alleging that, then you're involving DS in a libel and I expect this thread will be closed imminently.
I'm not saying Rapture would be in trouble for bring documents to attention, i'm saying that you don't seem to have a firm grasp on reality, and for that reason, Rapture is in trouble if you are in any way employed in decision-making.
The documents show that the sworn witness statements are evidence and that Mr. Kommerling was working with NDS and Canal+ at the time. He was supplied a copy of secret code from NDS which had a missing bit of code.
He was asked to help find a solution for the missing code. He did find a solution but was not aware at the time where the code came from or whos code it was. It was later when he was sent a copy of the full code with the inserted code that he recognised the code as the same as before.
Mr. Kommerling's statement also questions the CEO of NDS and its clear that at the highest level of NDS there was full knowledge of the alledged actions.
Mr. James Murdoch was not only a director of NDS but also a director of BSkyB. It will be for a court to decide if there was any involvement in the NDS alledged 'Piracy'. If so and even if there is no direct involvement it would cast serious doubt on the management by Mr. Murdoch if he is un aware of his companies well funded and resourced efforts to hack and pirate a competitors technology.
How can a company spend as alledged £millions of pounds on engineers and equipment and pay hackers and pirates to hack a until then un hackable smartcard without any senior management noticing the budget being spent on non core business?
Any senior management that is un aware of such an alleged illegal process is obviously not management material.
Our point is that if found guilty in a civil action which would very likely lead to a criminal investigation and if then found guilty in the criminal case. Then all BSkyB broadcast licenses would be in serious doubt. Under the broadcasting act criminals are not allowed to hold a license.
This is the biggest case of its type. The orginal case Canal+ V NDS which alledged exactly the same illegal actions by NDS but was settled and sealed when News Corp the owner of NDS bought a satellite platform from Canal+ for $800 million. Documents prove that the NDS case was to be closed on completion of the purchase.
I can't be bothered continuing to read your fantasies. You are delusional. A civil action in Canada is going to lead to criminal action here? Wakey wakey.
The documents show that the sworn witness statements are evidence and that Mr. Kommerling was working with NDS and Canal+ at the time. He was supplied a copy of secret code from NDS which had a missing bit of code.
He was asked to help find a solution for the missing code. He did find a solution but was not aware at the time where the code came from or whos code it was. It was later when he was sent a copy of the full code with the inserted code that he recognised the code as the same as before.
Mr. Kommerling's statement also questions the CEO of NDS and its clear that at the highest level of NDS there was full knowledge of the alledged actions.
Mr. James Murdoch was not only a director of NDS but also a director of BSkyB. It will be for a court to decide if there was any involvement in the NDS alledged 'Piracy'. If so and even if there is no direct involvement it would cast serious doubt on the management by Mr. Murdoch if he is un aware of his companies well funded and resourced efforts to hack and pirate a competitors technology.
How can a company spend as alledged £millions of pounds on engineers and equipment and pay hackers and pirates to hack a until then un hackable smartcard without any senior management noticing the budget being spent on non core business?
Any senior management that is un aware of such an alleged illegal process is obviously not management material.
Our point is that if found guilty in a civil action which would very likely lead to a criminal investigation and if then found guilty in the criminal case. Then all BSkyB broadcast licenses would be in serious doubt. Under the broadcasting act criminals are not allowed to hold a license.
This is the biggest case of its type. The orginal case Canal+ V NDS which alledged exactly the same illegal actions by NDS but was settled and sealed when News Corp the owner of NDS bought a satellite platform from Canal+ for $800 million. Documents prove that the NDS case was to be closed on completion of the purchase.
Page 18 confirms that NDS was being sued by several companies all for alledged 'Hacking and Piracy'.
I actually see no evidence whatsoever, all I see are some documents hosted on your own website purporting to be sworn statements (for what that is worth) which anyone could put together with a printer scanner and a PDF creation programme, none of this so called evidence is hosted anywhere else on the web (unless you can provide links to a reliable website for their authentication as being copies of such statements). Yes there are sites posting such details but again it is not possible from those sites to prove their veracity. It is about time you actually waited for the court's decision before posting such unverifiable allegations.
I can't be bothered continuing to read your fantasies. You are delusional. A civil action in Canada is going to lead to criminal action here? Wakey wakey.
The action isn't in Canada its in California US. Unless the case and evidence is an illusion then it not us that are delusional.
Its suprising that so many who can't find any defence to the claims instead try to rubbish the message. That is very telling.
I actually see no evidence whatsoever, all I see are some documents hosted on your own website purporting to be sworn statements (for what that is worth) which anyone could put together with a printer scanner and a PDF creation programme, none of this so called evidence is hosted anywhere else on the web (unless you can provide links to a reliable website for their authentication as being copies of such statements). Yes there are sites posting such details but again it is not possible from those sites to prove their veracity. It is about time you actually waited for the court's decision before posting such unverifiable allegations.
The NDS document was downloaded and we have the data to prove it from the NDS site.
The other documents can be downloaded from the US court service. They are also posted on a Australian shareholder website. Lawyers have confirmed the source.
Rapture TV has only ever posted real documents and to make any claim to the opposite will be treated as libelous.
You are obviously only seeing what you want to see.
I don't think this is a pro-NDS forum. It's an encryption company, not a football team.
Many posters here are against Sky.
What most people object to is trying to pass highly biased opinion as 100% legally binding fact.
Rapture TV as a company did that in the past and it was proven wrong, I see no reason for them to be wrong again.
While I like Sky, the above two paragraphs have nothing to do with that.
What was Rapture proven wrong on? The Rapture Appeal is still waiting on the ruling. Ofcom has failed to follow the rules. Many of the Ofcom findings are Appealled. If there was no merit to the Appeals then they wouldn't be granted. You have to have merit in the case before an Appeal is granted.
The document speaks for themself. The legal case is 100% fact. There is no possible defence to such alledged actions. All that is open to question is whether NDS is guilty or innocent of the claims.
The posting by Rapture TV of the case documents are not opinion and are not biased. They are offered for people to read and make their own mind up on.
What was Rapture proven wrong on? The Rapture Appeal is still waiting on the ruling. Ofcom has failed to follow the rules. Many of the Ofcom findings are Appealled. If there was no merit to the Appeals then they wouldn't be granted. You have to have merit in the case before an Appeal is granted..
That's my exact point.
"Don't count your chickens before they're hatched"
You are practically saying:
"NDS cannot argue against this case. What do you think about this?"
You keep asking people what they think, but you don't really give anything for them to discuss.
If you read the documents there is plenty to discuss. We think NDS did hack the smartcards and the question is why?
Most hardware/software developers have other companies hardware/software.. A firm I worked for created a PC-Alarm security system, within weeks we found a rival firm had copied our hardware (made a slight change) and also had code that really looked like code I created... It would be hard in a court to prove that they had copied our software if they had a copy of the source (And I know I didn't leak it anyone).
I am sure its the same with NDS etc.. It will be for the courts to decide if there is a case to answer..
However "We offer this to allow interested parties to read for themselves some of the claims and statements as this case could lead to other legal claims from other companies or shareholders in UK Pay TV operations that are suffering or have suffered from viewing card piracy. If found against NDS then the use of Conditional Access services could be affected." - I recall no recent SKYtv pirate cards on the market
Oh and isn't Dish Network a rival to a News Corp Company called "Directv".
Most hardware/software developers have other companies hardware/software.. A firm I worked for created a PC-Alarm security system, within weeks we found a rival firm had copied our hardware (made a slight change) and also had code that really looked like code I created... It would be hard in a court to prove that they had copied our software if they had a copy of the source (And I know I didn't leak it anyone).
I am sure its the same with NDS etc.. It will be for the courts to decide if there is a case to answer..
However "We offer this to allow interested parties to read for themselves some of the claims and statements as this case could lead to other legal claims from other companies or shareholders in UK Pay TV operations that are suffering or have suffered from viewing card piracy. If found against NDS then the use of Conditional Access services could be affected." - I recall no recent SKYtv pirate cards on the market
Oh and isn't Dish Network a rival to a News Corp Company called "Directv".
We were referring to the fact that if NDS is found guilty it is likely to lead to criminal charges and that could lead to a EU wide ban on the Videoguard CA system.
This would mean that a new CA solution would be required from a supplier who doesn't have a criminal record.
Yes Dish TV is a competitor to Direct TV. If you look at the NDS shareholders presentation you will see that Direct TV was also suing NDS over piracy claims. It appears that NDS was supplying the official Direct TV cards while at the same time someone inside NDS was hacking and supplying pirate cards out the back door.
The Dish TV cards had never been hacked until NDS became involved. Witnesses in the case claim its very difficult to extract the code and un pick the security measures in a smartcard. Only with millions of pounds of equipment can such a hack be achieved. This narrows down the number of possible hackers.
The Echostar documents are compelling. If your company had eye witnesses and document showing the PC security code being sent to your competitor then you would have a similar case to Echostar.
Plus the fact that there is not and has not been any hacked Sky cards seems to show that other smartcard suppliers don't act like NDS.
Shows why the Direct TV case was dropped and the Canal+ case as well.
It appears there is a pattern to the Murdoch company’s behaviour.
1st use NDS to hack and pirate your competitors technology.
2nd once your competitor finds out and sues you buy the company off them then replace the CA system they use with the CA system from NDS.
It makes a nice virtuous circle and is good for business, just not anyone else’s business.
I am new to this thread and just read it from start to finish. One question that keeps on repeating is why are you obsessed about it?
Is it just sour grapes after your court battle or do you have agenda against News Corp/NDS/Sky?
They do appear to have an agenda against anything to do with News Corp, having twice failed to launch successfully as a channel (for whatever reason) they were highly miffed when they started a contract for EPG carriage (without apparently first agreeing the price) and were removed from the EPG by Sky when they did not pay up (and could not get a concession from Sky) and subsequently stopped broadcasting completely.
Comments
So, could you tell me what the fine for not filing your company tax returns on time is?
Rapture is not trying to get a EPG at a level less than anyone else. Rapture is fighting for what the law says should be the correct price. They are clearly very different.
If you had read the Echostar court documents you would know that NDS transferred secret codes to the UK offices of NDS. Then senior figures at NDS in London transferred the codes onto the US.
Therefore there is a clear criminal and civil offence committed in Britain.
There is no fine if a company has ceased to trade and entered a CVA. What company are you a director of?
If you can't find any argument to defend the NDS actions why do you then resort to trying to change the subject and make claims about Rapture and the Rapture Appeal against Ofcom and BSkyB?
Everyone else has paid, you wanted it for less so thats at a level less than anyone else. Rapture is fighting for what it thinks the law says should be the correct price. Not quite the same thing.
As I said, they are not being prosecuted for a criminal offence. They are being sued. Once again, not quite the same thing.
Thank you for answering my question. As to what company i'm a director of, now that would be telling. As I'm here as a private individual I have no obligation to identify myself, and infact doing so is generally thought to be quite stupid.
Because everything comes down to your vendetta with sky. I'm not making claims, just putting the discussion into perspective. I have already stated that I am not defending NDS and I am not stating that they are innocent.
No not everyone has paid the same fee. Read the Rapture Appeal transcripts. 4 or 5 others have paid less than the published EPG fee. If you read the documents then you'd know that.
We wouldn't be suprised if criminal charges follow in the near future as the documents include sworn witness statements that confirm the actions.
Criminals are not allowed to hold a broadcast license.
NDS is not a broadcaster so even if they are branded as criminals it won't affect them in the way you suggest.
I'm now going to bow out of this thread, at least for a while.
Another victim to attrition.
Perhaps if you are still trying to keep the thread alive in a while then i'll rejoin the fray.
Until then, pour vitriol to your hearts content.
Haha...are those the sworn statements from the dodgy card dealers?
Once again, I am forced to conclude that if you are indeed at the controls of Rapture, and not in fact a crusading employee going above and beyond, then Rapture is in serious trouble. Your reasoning appears to be something akin to that of a petulant teenager, if that reasoning is leading you to conclude that James or Rupert Murdoch are destined for criminal charges.
No its nothing to do with 'dodgy card dealers'. If you bothered to read the witness statements you'd see that in fact the witnesses were involved with NDS at a senior level.
Oliver Kommerling was the original engineer that set up the NDS lab and trained the NDS engineers. He has given evidence that he knows that NDS was the source of the pirated smartcard codes. Why would Rapture be in trouble for helping bring attention to the already public legal documents?
James Murdoch was a Director of NDS are you claiming he didn't know anything about these claims?
I'm not saying Rapture would be in trouble for bring documents to attention, i'm saying that you don't seem to have a firm grasp on reality, and for that reason, Rapture is in trouble if you are in any way employed in decision-making.
The documents show that the sworn witness statements are evidence and that Mr. Kommerling was working with NDS and Canal+ at the time. He was supplied a copy of secret code from NDS which had a missing bit of code.
He was asked to help find a solution for the missing code. He did find a solution but was not aware at the time where the code came from or whos code it was. It was later when he was sent a copy of the full code with the inserted code that he recognised the code as the same as before.
Mr. Kommerling's statement also questions the CEO of NDS and its clear that at the highest level of NDS there was full knowledge of the alledged actions.
Mr. James Murdoch was not only a director of NDS but also a director of BSkyB. It will be for a court to decide if there was any involvement in the NDS alledged 'Piracy'. If so and even if there is no direct involvement it would cast serious doubt on the management by Mr. Murdoch if he is un aware of his companies well funded and resourced efforts to hack and pirate a competitors technology.
How can a company spend as alledged £millions of pounds on engineers and equipment and pay hackers and pirates to hack a until then un hackable smartcard without any senior management noticing the budget being spent on non core business?
Any senior management that is un aware of such an alleged illegal process is obviously not management material.
Our point is that if found guilty in a civil action which would very likely lead to a criminal investigation and if then found guilty in the criminal case. Then all BSkyB broadcast licenses would be in serious doubt. Under the broadcasting act criminals are not allowed to hold a license.
This is the biggest case of its type. The orginal case Canal+ V NDS which alledged exactly the same illegal actions by NDS but was settled and sealed when News Corp the owner of NDS bought a satellite platform from Canal+ for $800 million. Documents prove that the NDS case was to be closed on completion of the purchase.
See here for the proof: http://www.rapturetv.com/news_article.php?News=11
Page 18 confirms that NDS was being sued by several companies all for alledged 'Hacking and Piracy'.
I actually see no evidence whatsoever, all I see are some documents hosted on your own website purporting to be sworn statements (for what that is worth) which anyone could put together with a printer scanner and a PDF creation programme, none of this so called evidence is hosted anywhere else on the web (unless you can provide links to a reliable website for their authentication as being copies of such statements). Yes there are sites posting such details but again it is not possible from those sites to prove their veracity. It is about time you actually waited for the court's decision before posting such unverifiable allegations.
The action isn't in Canada its in California US. Unless the case and evidence is an illusion then it not us that are delusional.
Its suprising that so many who can't find any defence to the claims instead try to rubbish the message. That is very telling.
The NDS document was downloaded and we have the data to prove it from the NDS site.
The other documents can be downloaded from the US court service. They are also posted on a Australian shareholder website. Lawyers have confirmed the source.
Rapture TV has only ever posted real documents and to make any claim to the opposite will be treated as libelous.
You are obviously only seeing what you want to see.
Maybe they just continue their criminal activities
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NDS_Group#Canal_Plus_lawsuit
Old uncle Rupert, smile
I don't think this is a pro-NDS forum. It's an encryption company, not a football team.
Many posters here are against Sky.
What most people object to is trying to pass highly biased opinion as 100% legally binding fact.
Rapture TV as a company did that in the past and it was proven wrong, I see no reason for them to be wrong again.
While I like Sky, the above two paragraphs have nothing to do with that.
What was Rapture proven wrong on? The Rapture Appeal is still waiting on the ruling. Ofcom has failed to follow the rules. Many of the Ofcom findings are Appealled. If there was no merit to the Appeals then they wouldn't be granted. You have to have merit in the case before an Appeal is granted.
The document speaks for themself. The legal case is 100% fact. There is no possible defence to such alledged actions. All that is open to question is whether NDS is guilty or innocent of the claims.
The posting by Rapture TV of the case documents are not opinion and are not biased. They are offered for people to read and make their own mind up on.
That's my exact point.
"Don't count your chickens before they're hatched"
You are practically saying:
"NDS cannot argue against this case. What do you think about this?"
You keep asking people what they think, but you don't really give anything for them to discuss.
If you read the documents there is plenty to discuss. We think NDS did hack the smartcards and the question is why?
Most hardware/software developers have other companies hardware/software.. A firm I worked for created a PC-Alarm security system, within weeks we found a rival firm had copied our hardware (made a slight change) and also had code that really looked like code I created... It would be hard in a court to prove that they had copied our software if they had a copy of the source (And I know I didn't leak it anyone).
I am sure its the same with NDS etc.. It will be for the courts to decide if there is a case to answer..
However "We offer this to allow interested parties to read for themselves some of the claims and statements as this case could lead to other legal claims from other companies or shareholders in UK Pay TV operations that are suffering or have suffered from viewing card piracy. If found against NDS then the use of Conditional Access services could be affected." - I recall no recent SKYtv pirate cards on the market
Oh and isn't Dish Network a rival to a News Corp Company called "Directv".
We were referring to the fact that if NDS is found guilty it is likely to lead to criminal charges and that could lead to a EU wide ban on the Videoguard CA system.
This would mean that a new CA solution would be required from a supplier who doesn't have a criminal record.
Yes Dish TV is a competitor to Direct TV. If you look at the NDS shareholders presentation you will see that Direct TV was also suing NDS over piracy claims. It appears that NDS was supplying the official Direct TV cards while at the same time someone inside NDS was hacking and supplying pirate cards out the back door.
The Dish TV cards had never been hacked until NDS became involved. Witnesses in the case claim its very difficult to extract the code and un pick the security measures in a smartcard. Only with millions of pounds of equipment can such a hack be achieved. This narrows down the number of possible hackers.
The Echostar documents are compelling. If your company had eye witnesses and document showing the PC security code being sent to your competitor then you would have a similar case to Echostar.
Plus the fact that there is not and has not been any hacked Sky cards seems to show that other smartcard suppliers don't act like NDS.
Shows why the Direct TV case was dropped and the Canal+ case as well.
It appears there is a pattern to the Murdoch company’s behaviour.
1st use NDS to hack and pirate your competitors technology.
2nd once your competitor finds out and sues you buy the company off them then replace the CA system they use with the CA system from NDS.
It makes a nice virtuous circle and is good for business, just not anyone else’s business.
That is of course if the claims are true?
Is it just sour grapes after your court battle or do you have agenda against News Corp/NDS/Sky?
No its about truth and justice. If there was another supplier refusing access to the Dsat platform then it would be them.
The Echostar case has been brewing for over 5 years.
No-one would sit all reporting the same (lack-of!) news otherwise!
They do appear to have an agenda against anything to do with News Corp, having twice failed to launch successfully as a channel (for whatever reason) they were highly miffed when they started a contract for EPG carriage (without apparently first agreeing the price) and were removed from the EPG by Sky when they did not pay up (and could not get a concession from Sky) and subsequently stopped broadcasting completely.