She was an adult. She chose to take drugs. He was not responsible for her death. Bad choices were made by both of them, but it was a tragic accident.
Fair point, but she took them at a vulnerable stage in her life.
She had an accident which left her in pain and had panic attacks as well. She had an eating disorder to boot.
You don't sit back and offer or watch someone take drugs when they're in that state of mind.
If we all turned to drugs at crisis points in our lives there'd be a hell of a lot of drug addicts about. Similarly, if we all committed suicide through guilt or desperation, there'd be a lot of dead people. Mark needed help, and where did he turn? His g/f's mother, who must have been going through her own hell. She must be a very Christian soul, because if I'd been asked to take in the boyfriend of a man responsible for my daughter's death, I'd have shown him the door. He needed proper help and counselling, which he either didn't want, or couldn't get.
Where were Mark's family in all this? They seem to have been very vocal in their pleas for him to come home or contact them, but no real sign of support.
I don't think counselling would have helped him being in the state of mind he was in.
The last twelve weeks of his life have been utter hell. I can't imagine the pain of feeling responsible for the death of someone I loved and also to have found her the way he did and reliving that moment over and over again.
He was punishing himself as well as going through the grief of losing her. I can't feel anything else but compassion for him. Yes, he was foolish, but so was she and they've both more than paid the price.
Fair point, but she took them at a vulnerable stage in her life.
She had an accident which left her in pain and had panic attacks as well. She had an eating disorder to boot.
You don't sit back and offer or watch someone take drugs when they're in that state of mind.
Was Mark also responsible for her panic attacks and her eating disorder? Do you know for a fact that Mark didn't have his own psychological problems? People are attracted to each other for a reason and maybe they were both fragile spirits.
People who use copius amounts of drugs are not usually well adjusted people. You are making it sound as though Mark was a svengali figure who corrupted her. You just don't know enough facts to come to that conclusion.
Realitysucks you are right we cannot judge Mark on whether or not he offered the drugs etc to his girlfriend as we will never know the answer to that question, my pint throughout this thread is they both could have said no at any point but chose not too, so for Natashas death Mark should not be blamed.
What i do not get though is certain people on here who claim that we are vultures picking at bones if we happen to disagree with the fact that Mark deserves our sympathy. No he doesnt in my opinion. The people who deserve my sympathies are the poor girls and their families who lost their lives in Equador etc, this is a tragic accident not what happened to Mark.
Realitysucks you are right we cannot judge Mark on whether or not he offered the drugs etc to his girlfriend as we will never know the answer to that question, my pint throughout this thread is they both could have said no at any point but chose not too, so for Natashas death Mark should not be blamed.
What i do not get though is certain people on here who claim that we are vultures picking at bones if we happen to disagree with the fact that Mark deserves our sympathy. No he doesnt in my opinion. The people who deserve my sympathies are the poor girls and their families who lost their lives in Equador etc, this is a tragic accident not what happened to Mark.[
I can't see why we can't have sympathy and compassion for both quite honestly. He spent the last 12 weeks of his life in utter despair, a living hell that I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy. My compassion for him is because I know he blamed himself and he had to live with that.
Was Mark also responsible for her panic attacks and her eating disorder? Do you know for a fact that Mark didn't have his own psychological problems? People are attracted to each other for a reason and maybe they were both fragile spirits.
People who use copius amounts of drugs are not usually well adjusted people. You are making it sound as though Mark was a svengali figure who corrupted her. You just don't know enough facts to come to that conclusion.
According to this, he introduced her to cocaine:
"He's haunted by the fact that he introduced her to cocaine in the first place. As far as he's concerned, it's all his fault - and if he could give his life to bring her back he'd do it in a heartbeat."
You don't introduce drugs into the life of a woman who's psychologically and mentally impaired, at least you don't if you've any common sense.
He was taking the drugs himself. Like most people who use cocaine, they don't think it will kill them and most people don't die through cocaine abuse. Far more people die from alcohol abuse (both users and victims of users) than from illegal drug use.
What happened was tragic but it could happen to anyone who has ever taken an E or drank to toxic levels. Natasha had a choice too. Blaming Mark absolves Natasha from taking any responsibility for her own health.
He was taking the drugs himself. Like most people who use cocaine, they don't think it will kill them and most people don't die through cocaine abuse. Far more people die from alcohol abuse (both users and victims of users) than from illegal drug use.
So that makes drug use OK?
No, they don't think it'll kill them, they think that happens to other people. Well, whaddya know - they are those 'other people'.
What happened was tragic but it could happen to anyone who has ever taken an E or drank to toxic levels. Natasha had a choice too. Blaming Mark absolves Natasha from taking any responsibility for her own health.
The girl was ill. She had mental and physical problems, including an eating disorder. If he thought she was sick, why introduce her to coke. That's not the action of someone who cares, surely?
The girl was ill. She had mental and physical problems, including an eating disorder. If he thought she was sick, why introduce her to coke. That's not the action of someone who cares, surely?
she wasn't a 'girl' she was a grown women! :rolleyes:
How pointless to split hairs like that. :rolleyes:
Actually I'm not splitting hairs, it seems to me from your posts that you have an image of Natasha as an innocent young "girl" who has no culpability for her situation whatsoever. It doesn't do her justice. By all accounts she was a lively young lady who liked to party by the definition of her own family. She made her own choices here.
Actually I'm not splitting hairs, it seems to me from your posts that you have an image of Natasha as an innocent young "girl" who has no culpability for her situation whatsoever. It doesn't do her justice. By all accounts she was a lively young lady who liked to party by the definition of her own family. She made her own choices here.
I agree Muttley. This whole debate is all wrong IMO. Mark has more than paid the price for any responsibility he felt for Natasha's death. I just feel terribly, terribly sorry for the anguish he must have gone through in the last weeks of his life. Natasha took the same risk than anyone does when they take cocaine. She wasn't born yesterday.
I agree Muttley. This whole debate is all wrong IMO. Mark has more than paid the price for any responsibility he felt for Natasha's death. I just feel terribly, terribly sorry for the anguish he must have gone through in the last weeks of his life. Natasha took the same risk than anyone does when they take cocaine. She wasn't born yesterday.
You know what I find ironic is the same people that are using Natasha's presumed 'mental state' against mark are the same people who don't want to accept that an established fragile mental state is an understandable reason for Mark killing himself, talk about wanting to have your cake and eat it!
Actually I'm not splitting hairs, it seems to me from your posts that you have an image of Natasha as an innocent young "girl" who has no culpability for her situation whatsoever. It doesn't do her justice. By all accounts she was a lively young lady who liked to party by the definition of her own family. She made her own choices here.
In that case, she was a woman who made the wrong - and ultimately fatal - choice.
She had psychological and physical problems as I've repeatedly said, so can you tell me if it's a good idea for Mark Speight to have introduced her to coke in the first place, as seems to have been the case? Ultimately he was the person who appears to have bought the fatal dose, so in the end he's culpable too - perhaps even more so.
She had psychological and physical problems as I've repeatedly said, so can you tell me if it's a good idea for Mark Speight to have introduced her to coke in the first place, as seems to have been the case? Ultimately he was the person who appears to have bought the fatal dose, so in the end he's culpable too - perhaps even more so.
You see this is the problem, you seem to assume anyone that has sympathy for the guy is unable to see that he didn't make bad choices. He did. But so did she. And in spite of whatever bad choices he made, she is still ultimately able to make her own decisions. I feel nothing but sympathy towards the pair of them.
Do you honestly think if he was the kind of man some of you are trying to make him out to be that her mother would have been so publicly supportive of him? Of course not! I just think this thread is roaming in to the word of fantasy where people are making all kinds of assumptions about what happened.
i feel sorrry for both there deaths and there family was does it matter about the drugs all that matters is two talanted young people have died and a family is greiving the drugs dont come into it and people sholud focus on there fanilys not how they died
You see this is the problem, you seem to assume anyone that has sympathy for the guy is unable to see that he didn't make bad choices. He did. But so did she. And in spite of whatever bad choices he made, she is still ultimately able to make her own decisions. I feel nothing but sympathy towards the pair of them.
Do you honestly think if he was the kind of man some of you are trying to make him out to be that her mother would have been so publicly supportive of him? Of course not! I just think this thread is roaming in to the word of fantasy where people are making all kinds of assumptions about what happened.
According to this, (yes, I know it's the DM) Natasha's mother had no idea she was taking drugs. Just a few excerpts from the piece:
Yet despite his close relationship with Natasha's mother, many friends believed he had failed to tell her the truth about her daughter's drug abuse.
"He didn't want her to think badly of him or Tash," added the friend.
Certainly there were elements of Speight's self-justification following Natasha's death which were, frankly, difficult to believe.
.....his claim that she had taken cocaine as a "release" from the panic attacks she had suffered ever since the traffic accident which nearly killed her.
"The bottom line is that Mark bought the coke which killed Tash, and as far as he was concerned he may as well have provided her with a revolver and a handful of bullets," said the friend, who asked to remain anonymous.
"Tash was a strong willed woman who was perfectly capable of making her own decisions. But she was also at least ten years younger than Mark and very impressionable.
"Added to that he felt guilty because he'd made a few comments past year about wanting out of the relationship.
"I don't doubt that he loved her but she had an eating disorder and I know it caused friction sometimes.
The numbers do not lie: In 1993, when records began, there were 11 deaths from cocaine in England and Wales.
By 2006 - the most recent year for which figures are available - that number had risen to 190.
When the next batch of statistics is compiled, Speight's death will not be registered as drug related.
But as Carmen Collins has learned through bitter experience, in the end it was cocaine which killed him, just as surely as it claimed the life of her beloved daughter.
In the end after reading that piece, can you tell me who's truly worthy of our sympathy? A girl and her bloke who took copious amounts of drugs, booze and sleeping tablets and paid the price, or Natasha's mother, who lost another child at the age of two, her husband, and then another daughter? Mark and Natasha are out of their pain, Natasha's mother will have to live with the death of a daughter, and the man who contributed to that daughter's death, and whom she tried to help out of the goodness of her heart. That poor woman has to live with all that, I hope she has the strength to bear such a burden.
According to this, (yes, I know it's the DM) Natasha's mother had no idea she was taking drugs..
But she certainly did AFTER her death, did she not? And she welcomed him in to her home with open arms and was supportive of him to the last. She perhaps knows rather more than the posters here about the truth of the situation, even if it was only in retrospect.
eta: and I have symapthy for all concerned. Two people that died before their time and the family's that have been left behind.
According to this, (yes, I know it's the DM) Natasha's mother had no idea she was taking drugs. Just a few excerpts from the piece:
In the end after reading that piece, can you tell me who's truly worthy of our sympathy? A girl and her bloke who took copious amounts of drugs, booze and sleeping tablets and paid the price, or Natasha's mother, who lost another child at the age of two, her husband, and then another daughter? Mark and Natasha are out of their pain, Natasha's mother will have to live with the death of a daughter, and the man who contributed to that daughter's death, and whom she tried to help out of the goodness of her heart. That poor woman has to live with all that, I hope she has the strength to bear such a burden.
They are all worthy of our sympathy IMO. I don't know why it has to be reserved for one person at the expense of another.
But she certainly did AFTER her death, did she not? And she welcomed him in to her home with open arms and was supportive of him to the last. She perhaps knows rather more than the posters here about the truth of the situation, even if it was only in retrospect.
eta: and I have symapthy for all concerned. Two people that died before their time and the family's that have been left behind.
And if you read that piece, you'll find he didn't want Natasha's mother to know. I find that very telling, he can't have wanted her to think badly of Natasha - fair enough, nobody wants to think badly of their children - but by association, if he'd told her mother about her drug habit, that would have reflected badly on him too.
"Up until Tash died it never occurred to him that there was anything wrong with their lifestyle.
That just sounds dreadfully arrogant.
He claimed she'd taken coke as a release from the panic attacks she had after her accident. Anyone who knows anything about drugs will tell you that taking coke will make the panic attacks worse, not better. Trying to justify himself when it was too late? I think so.
He claimed she'd taken coke as a release from the panic attacks she had after her accident. Anyone who knows anything about drugs will tell you that taking coke will make the panic attacks worse, not better. Trying to justify himself when it's too late? I think so.
It doesn't sound arrogant to me, it sounds like he was rather naive/deluded about the dangers of taking drugs. Furthermore, as with many things there is always the assumption that it won't happen to me...
As for your comments on coke, coke gives a sense of well being, alertness and self confidence in the short term. You are correct that in the longer term it can lead to tiredness/depression, chest pain and heart problems. Again people are often ignorant of the side effects that drugs can have.
The point is that none of us know all the answers yet you seem all to keen and eager to make Mark out to be some kind of awful person that none of us have the right to have any sympathy for.
He made mistakes, but he paid for those mistakes very dearly. I can't imagine the pain and suffering he went through in the last few weeks of his life....it must have been a living hell. That is why most people have at least some degree of sympathy for him.
Comments
Fair point, but she took them at a vulnerable stage in her life.
She had an accident which left her in pain and had panic attacks as well. She had an eating disorder to boot.
You don't sit back and offer or watch someone take drugs when they're in that state of mind.
I don't think counselling would have helped him being in the state of mind he was in.
The last twelve weeks of his life have been utter hell. I can't imagine the pain of feeling responsible for the death of someone I loved and also to have found her the way he did and reliving that moment over and over again.
He was punishing himself as well as going through the grief of losing her. I can't feel anything else but compassion for him. Yes, he was foolish, but so was she and they've both more than paid the price.
Was Mark also responsible for her panic attacks and her eating disorder? Do you know for a fact that Mark didn't have his own psychological problems? People are attracted to each other for a reason and maybe they were both fragile spirits.
People who use copius amounts of drugs are not usually well adjusted people. You are making it sound as though Mark was a svengali figure who corrupted her. You just don't know enough facts to come to that conclusion.
What i do not get though is certain people on here who claim that we are vultures picking at bones if we happen to disagree with the fact that Mark deserves our sympathy. No he doesnt in my opinion. The people who deserve my sympathies are the poor girls and their families who lost their lives in Equador etc, this is a tragic accident not what happened to Mark.
I can't see why we can't have sympathy and compassion for both quite honestly. He spent the last 12 weeks of his life in utter despair, a living hell that I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy. My compassion for him is because I know he blamed himself and he had to live with that.
According to this, he introduced her to cocaine:
You don't introduce drugs into the life of a woman who's psychologically and mentally impaired, at least you don't if you've any common sense.
He was taking the drugs himself. Like most people who use cocaine, they don't think it will kill them and most people don't die through cocaine abuse. Far more people die from alcohol abuse (both users and victims of users) than from illegal drug use.
What happened was tragic but it could happen to anyone who has ever taken an E or drank to toxic levels. Natasha had a choice too. Blaming Mark absolves Natasha from taking any responsibility for her own health.
So that makes drug use OK?
No, they don't think it'll kill them, they think that happens to other people. Well, whaddya know - they are those 'other people'.
The girl was ill. She had mental and physical problems, including an eating disorder. If he thought she was sick, why introduce her to coke. That's not the action of someone who cares, surely?
she wasn't a 'girl' she was a grown women! :rolleyes:
How pointless to split hairs like that. :rolleyes:
Actually I'm not splitting hairs, it seems to me from your posts that you have an image of Natasha as an innocent young "girl" who has no culpability for her situation whatsoever. It doesn't do her justice. By all accounts she was a lively young lady who liked to party by the definition of her own family. She made her own choices here.
I agree Muttley. This whole debate is all wrong IMO. Mark has more than paid the price for any responsibility he felt for Natasha's death. I just feel terribly, terribly sorry for the anguish he must have gone through in the last weeks of his life. Natasha took the same risk than anyone does when they take cocaine. She wasn't born yesterday.
You know what I find ironic is the same people that are using Natasha's presumed 'mental state' against mark are the same people who don't want to accept that an established fragile mental state is an understandable reason for Mark killing himself, talk about wanting to have your cake and eat it!
In that case, she was a woman who made the wrong - and ultimately fatal - choice.
She had psychological and physical problems as I've repeatedly said, so can you tell me if it's a good idea for Mark Speight to have introduced her to coke in the first place, as seems to have been the case? Ultimately he was the person who appears to have bought the fatal dose, so in the end he's culpable too - perhaps even more so.
You see this is the problem, you seem to assume anyone that has sympathy for the guy is unable to see that he didn't make bad choices. He did. But so did she. And in spite of whatever bad choices he made, she is still ultimately able to make her own decisions. I feel nothing but sympathy towards the pair of them.
Do you honestly think if he was the kind of man some of you are trying to make him out to be that her mother would have been so publicly supportive of him? Of course not! I just think this thread is roaming in to the word of fantasy where people are making all kinds of assumptions about what happened.
According to this, (yes, I know it's the DM) Natasha's mother had no idea she was taking drugs. Just a few excerpts from the piece:
In the end after reading that piece, can you tell me who's truly worthy of our sympathy? A girl and her bloke who took copious amounts of drugs, booze and sleeping tablets and paid the price, or Natasha's mother, who lost another child at the age of two, her husband, and then another daughter? Mark and Natasha are out of their pain, Natasha's mother will have to live with the death of a daughter, and the man who contributed to that daughter's death, and whom she tried to help out of the goodness of her heart. That poor woman has to live with all that, I hope she has the strength to bear such a burden.
But she certainly did AFTER her death, did she not? And she welcomed him in to her home with open arms and was supportive of him to the last. She perhaps knows rather more than the posters here about the truth of the situation, even if it was only in retrospect.
eta: and I have symapthy for all concerned. Two people that died before their time and the family's that have been left behind.
They are all worthy of our sympathy IMO. I don't know why it has to be reserved for one person at the expense of another.
And if you read that piece, you'll find he didn't want Natasha's mother to know. I find that very telling, he can't have wanted her to think badly of Natasha - fair enough, nobody wants to think badly of their children - but by association, if he'd told her mother about her drug habit, that would have reflected badly on him too.
That just sounds dreadfully arrogant.
He claimed she'd taken coke as a release from the panic attacks she had after her accident. Anyone who knows anything about drugs will tell you that taking coke will make the panic attacks worse, not better. Trying to justify himself when it was too late? I think so.
have to agree here.
It doesn't sound arrogant to me, it sounds like he was rather naive/deluded about the dangers of taking drugs. Furthermore, as with many things there is always the assumption that it won't happen to me...
As for your comments on coke, coke gives a sense of well being, alertness and self confidence in the short term. You are correct that in the longer term it can lead to tiredness/depression, chest pain and heart problems. Again people are often ignorant of the side effects that drugs can have.
The point is that none of us know all the answers yet you seem all to keen and eager to make Mark out to be some kind of awful person that none of us have the right to have any sympathy for.
He made mistakes, but he paid for those mistakes very dearly. I can't imagine the pain and suffering he went through in the last few weeks of his life....it must have been a living hell. That is why most people have at least some degree of sympathy for him.
We can only make assumptions on what we read in the media as it's our only source.
Unless we were intimate friends with them that's all we have.
It's perfectly possible to have a debate on what we do know rather than inventing fairy stories though.