Are all Freeview TV's Freeview HD

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  • chrisjrchrisjr Posts: 33,282
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    HD in the UK was a bit of a bodge in some respects. By all accounts it was bolted on somewhat as an afterthought. The problem really was that HD hadn't been incorporated into Digital TV in the UK from the start unlike in parts of the rest of Europe.

    So you had a load of muxes all clogged to the rafters with SD channels and no room for even a single HD channel. Well no room without kicking a load of SD channels off anyway. So the powers that be devised the DVB-T2 standard which has a much higher capacity than DVB-T and so allows more HD channels per mux than DVB-T.

    Trouble is a DVB-T only receiver can't make head nor tail of a DVB-T2 broadcast so it was incompatible with existing TVs and set top boxes/PVRs. Hence the problems with having to check the TV is Freeview HD compatible.
  • TYCOTYCO Posts: 5,891
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    Actually that doesn't seem so unwise, at least when people do invest in HD they stand a good chance of getting a better offering.

    Since you know so much, how come in Italy there are literally 3 times as many channels on DTT as there are in the UK? There is a lot of utter rubbish, and some terrible quality channels, however.
  • Nigel GoodwinNigel Goodwin Posts: 58,335
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    TYCO wrote: »
    Why did the UK choose this method?

    Because it's better than the older system used in France etc.

    Many of the countries that adopted the old system are either in the process of changing, or will do so in the future.
  • jjnejjne Posts: 6,580
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    I do strongly suspect that we'll see a 'DSO 2' at some point in the next 15 years. DVB-T2 isn't just useful for HD, it is capable of delivering more SD channels and/or with better quality than DVB-T as well.

    I would imagine that the PSBs will all end up on a single DVB-T 'plex, with any other channels on DVB-T2 sooner rather than later.
  • chrisjrchrisjr Posts: 33,282
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    TYCO wrote: »
    Actually that doesn't seem so unwise, at least when people do invest in HD they stand a good chance of getting a better offering.

    Since you know so much, how come in Italy there are literally 3 times as many channels on DTT as there are in the UK? There is a lot of utter rubbish, and some terrible quality channels, however.
    Oh yeah :D

    Not overly familiar with digital telly in Italy. The number of channels depends on how many muxes there are, their capacity and how high (or low) a bit rate you want to use to broadcast your service.

    It's basically a balance between quality (in picture terms not content :)) and quantity. If you care sod all about quality then you can have loads of quantity. If you DO care about quality however you can't have loads of quantity. Given the same total capacity of the system.

    Changing from DVB-T to DVB-T2 would up the capacity so you could have increased quality at the same quantity (oh look a pig just flew past the window :D) or more likely more quantity at the current quality level. Or if we are unlucky more quantity and less quality.
  • Nigel GoodwinNigel Goodwin Posts: 58,335
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    TYCO wrote: »
    Actually that doesn't seem so unwise, at least when people do invest in HD they stand a good chance of getting a better offering.

    Since you know so much, how come in Italy there are literally 3 times as many channels on DTT as there are in the UK? There is a lot of utter rubbish, and some terrible quality channels, however.

    I thought Italian TV was pretty abysmal, and coverage pathetic - easy to have lot's of channels in a small area if you don't care about the rest of the country having none :p
  • TYCOTYCO Posts: 5,891
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    I thought Italian TV was pretty abysmal, and coverage pathetic - easy to have lot's of channels in a small area if you don't care about the rest of the country having none :p

    I don't know what you mean by abysmal (programming or technical) but I'd say the range of channels was better than here. There's as much if not more high quality stuff, then tons of shopping, music channels etc. There's about 7 free kids channels, the majority of the main channels allow you to change the language to English if it's an English show, then they have a sort of Ondigital type service with another 30 odd premium channels. It really makes Freeview, well, look shit to be honest. I;ve only lived in Rome and Milan, so can't comment on signal.
  • TYCOTYCO Posts: 5,891
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    Ok, so now I need advice. I ordered this television: http://www.ebuyer.com/505670-40-smhd40b-full-hd-led-with-built-in-hdtv-tuner-lh40hdbplgd-en


    I have tuned it in and it hasn't picked up any HD channels. I checked here: http://www.wolfbane.com/cgi-bin/tvd.exe?DX=L&HT=10&OS=dd3+6sw and the HDTV MUX broadcasts in the same way as the others but I've even tried tuning it manually and it says no signal on that ch/ number. This is not an HDTV tuner is it...?
  • chrisjrchrisjr Posts: 33,282
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    TYCO wrote: »
    Ok, so now I need advice. I ordered this television: http://www.ebuyer.com/505670-40-smhd40b-full-hd-led-with-built-in-hdtv-tuner-lh40hdbplgd-en


    I have tuned it in and it hasn't picked up any HD channels. I checked here: http://www.wolfbane.com/cgi-bin/tvd.exe?DX=L&HT=10&OS=dd3+6sw and the HDTV MUX broadcasts in the same way as the others but I've even tried tuning it manually and it says no signal on that ch/ number. This is not an HDTV tuner is it...?
    No it isn't it would appear.

    The Samsung website doesn't mention what spec the tuner is

    http://www.samsung.com/uk/business/business-products/large-format-display/general-display/LH40HDBPLGD/XU-spec

    However if you download the manual there is a section at the front that mentions DVB-T and in the specs the TV System also mentions DVB-T. But nowhere that I can see is any mention of DVB-T2
  • TYCOTYCO Posts: 5,891
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    chrisjr wrote: »
    No it isn't it would appear.

    The Samsung website doesn't mention what spec the tuner is

    http://www.samsung.com/uk/business/business-products/large-format-display/general-display/LH40HDBPLGD/XU-spec

    However if you download the manual there is a section at the front that mentions DVB-T and in the specs the TV System also mentions DVB-T. But nowhere that I can see is any mention of DVB-T2

    Would you agree that it's misleading? Especially the part where it says HDTV without the need for a decoder box. I consider myself reasonably clued up about this kind of thing, and I was absolutely sure I'd ordered a TV capable of tuning in HDTV. How the average Joe is supposed to manage I do not know.

    They have agreed to take it back no questions asked, however.
  • call100call100 Posts: 7,264
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    That is not just misleading but an outright lie on their website.....

    Pop into Argos...They have This Samsung for £387 at the moment £140 off......And it definitely has a Freeview HD tuner......
  • chrisjrchrisjr Posts: 33,282
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    TYCO wrote: »
    Would you agree that it's misleading? Especially the part where it says HDTV without the need for a decoder box. I consider myself reasonably clued up about this kind of thing, and I was absolutely sure I'd ordered a TV capable of tuning in HDTV. How the average Joe is supposed to manage I do not know.

    They have agreed to take it back no questions asked, however.
    Seems they may have done a cut and paste job from the Samsung website

    http://www.samsung.com/uk/business/business-products/large-format-display/general-display/LH40HDBPLGD/XU-features

    Note the similarity of the wording!

    It is certainly misleading in the context that it can't receive broadcast HD in the UK. But as they seem to be going on about it being a business display primarily rather than a TV for domestic use I wonder if they are talking about some sort of closed circuit system delivering in house generated digital signals rather than broadcast TV. In which case it may well be able to decode HD delivered over DVB-T.

    Ambiguous certainly. And maybe misleading of EBuyer to include it with other TVs that are primarily designed to receive broadcast signals. Samsung to be fair do not list it in with their TV range but in a separate Business Large Format Display category.
  • Nigel GoodwinNigel Goodwin Posts: 58,335
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    TYCO wrote: »
    Ok, so now I need advice. I ordered this television: http://www.ebuyer.com/505670-40-smhd40b-full-hd-led-with-built-in-hdtv-tuner-lh40hdbplgd-en


    I have tuned it in and it hasn't picked up any HD channels. I checked here: http://www.wolfbane.com/cgi-bin/tvd.exe?DX=L&HT=10&OS=dd3+6sw and the HDTV MUX broadcasts in the same way as the others but I've even tried tuning it manually and it says no signal on that ch/ number. This is not an HDTV tuner is it...?

    No where on that web page does it ever mention "Freeview HD", which is what it should do if it was - so I would assume it's a non-UK HDTV, and the advert is designed to be as misleading as possible.
  • chrisjrchrisjr Posts: 33,282
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    No where on that web page does it ever mention "Freeview HD", which is what it should do if it was - so I would assume it's a non-UK HDTV, and the advert is designed to be as misleading as possible.
    Not even sure its strictly speaking a "TV" in the sense that most people would understand by that.

    It doesn't appear in the Televisions section of the Samsung website. It is described as a Large Format Display panel. It just also happens to have a DVB-T tuner built in.

    Looking at the Samsung website the TV aspect of it isn't mentioned as much as other things like being used in retail or catering as an information display unit.
  • TYCOTYCO Posts: 5,891
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    Would you say I should argue for my delivery charge back too? I paid an extra £14 for next day delivery.
  • Nigel GoodwinNigel Goodwin Posts: 58,335
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    TYCO wrote: »
    Would you say I should argue for my delivery charge back too? I paid an extra £14 for next day delivery.

    I wouldn't have thought you have any hope (or right) to have 'next day' delivery refunded.
  • Nigel GoodwinNigel Goodwin Posts: 58,335
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    Winston_1 wrote: »
    Most certainly. With faulty goods, mis described goods etc you have a legal right for your delivery charge back.

    Are they 'mis-described'?, it doesn't state anywhere it receives Freeview HD - so mis-leading perhaps?,
  • bobcarbobcar Posts: 19,424
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    Are they 'mis-described'?, it doesn't state anywhere it receives Freeview HD - so mis-leading perhaps?,

    It's very misleading as it specifically states it has a "built in HDTV tuner". It is not unreasonable to expect a TV bought in the UK to receive Freeview HD according to that description.

    I'm no consumer lawyer (so obviously could be completely wrong) but I would have thought it was mis-described, I don't think it's allowed to mislead in such a way. (I may be wrong of course but usually these things have to be reasonable and I'd expect it to specifically say that it won't receive Freeview HD).
  • Doghouse RileyDoghouse Riley Posts: 32,491
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    TYCO wrote: »
    Would you say I should argue for my delivery charge back too? I paid an extra £14 for next day delivery.

    If they admitted that they misrepresented its ability to receive HD. You should demand a refund for the carriage.

    Most reputable companies, wouldn't want to risk getting a bad reputation by trying to save fourteen quid.

    We ordered some fitted wardrobe units from B&Q, they were finally delivered and we were very pleased with them. But they "misrepresented" when they said they'd be delivering them three times. I complained and they sent me a cheque for a hundred and fifty quid.
    "If you don't ask, you won't get."
  • grahamlthompsongrahamlthompson Posts: 18,486
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    bobcar wrote: »
    It's very misleading as it specifically states it has a "built in HDTV tuner". It is not unreasonable to expect a TV bought in the UK to receive Freeview HD according to that description.

    I'm no consumer lawyer (so obviously could be completely wrong) but I would have thought it was mis-described, I don't think it's allowed to mislead in such a way. (I may be wrong of course but usually these things have to be reasonable and I'd expect it to specifically say that it won't receive Freeview HD).

    It has got a HD tuner like most HD TV's. It does not have a HD tuner that us compatible with the DVB-T2 system used in the UK. In all probability it was designed before the DVB-T2 was available. The first HD TV terrestrial transmissions took place in London using DVB-T, your set would have worked with these and will also get HD pictures in European countries using DVB-T (Southern Ireland) for instance.

    A similar situation exists with HD satellite boxes, on satellite HD may be transmitted DVB-S or DVB-S2. An older box without DVB-S2 capability will not be able to watch HD TV transmiited using DVB-S2.

    By all means try and get your money back, unless the TV specifically says it's Freeview HD capable or the tuner spec lists DVB-T2 I doubt you will get very far.

    See the logo here

    http://www.freeview.co.uk/what-we-offer/freeview-hd
  • Doghouse RileyDoghouse Riley Posts: 32,491
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    It has got a HD tuner like most HD TV's. It does not have a HD tuner that us compatible with the DVB-T2 system used in the UK. In all probability it was designed before the DVB-T2 was available. The first HD TV terrestrial transmissions took place in London using DVB-T, your set would have worked with these and will also get HD pictures in European countries using DVB-T (Southern Ireland) for instance.

    A similar situation exists with HD satellite boxes, on satellite HD may be transmitted DVB-S or DVB-S2. An older box without DVB-S2 capability will not be able to watch HD TV transmiited using DVB-S2.

    By all means try and get your money back, unless the TV specifically says it's Freeview HD capable or the tuner spec lists DVB-T2 I doubt you will get very far.

    See the logo here

    http://www.freeview.co.uk/what-we-offer/freeview-hd

    It's not as cut and dried as that. It's about whether a court would consider it as a situation of, "passing off."

    A customer isn't expected to have technical knowledge of the item they are purchasing. It's a case of "does it do what it says on the tin?"

    If it says it is an HD TV on the carton or wherever and is being sold in this country, a customer can reasonably expect being sold something that will receive HD transmissions.
  • emptyboxemptybox Posts: 13,917
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    It's not as cut and dried as that. It's about whether a court would consider it as a situation of, "passing off."

    A customer isn't expected to have technical knowledge of the item they are purchasing. It's a case of "does it do what it says on the tin?"

    If it says it is an HD TV on the carton or wherever and is being sold in this country, a customer can reasonably expect being sold something that will receive HD transmissions.

    But it's been bought from the Business section of Ebuyer, and is not being advertised as a domestic television (or even a television at all).
    I doubt the customer would have a leg to stand on, unless someone from the company had misrepresented it on the phone, or in writing.
  • Doghouse RileyDoghouse Riley Posts: 32,491
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    emptybox wrote: »
    But it's been bought from the Business section of Ebuyer, and is not being advertised as a domestic television (or even a television at all).
    I doubt the customer would have a leg to stand on, unless someone from the company had misrepresented it on the phone, or in writing.

    Doesn't matter where they bought it, if it says HD TV on the carton shown in the advert, unless it also said or the purchaser was specifically told, that it wouldn't receive HD TV in this country.
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