BIB: Actually Ash turned on Lea and Nikki when she was up for eviction and thought it likely that both had nommed her, which they had. It's true to say that she felt she had nothing to lose that week and so did let rip at both of them. At her most powerful. when she returned to the main house, she was actually conciliatory towards both Lea and Nikki, particularly Nikki.
I see your point about when Ash was at her most powerful, that it was when she returned from the HND and was conciliatory, rather than when she'd been nominated and was unpleasant towards Lea and Nikki. But I'm not sure that's how it felt to Ash.
I think that, despite being nominated the week she went to the HND, Ash may have felt she still had a strong position in the house. It wasn't until she thought the other HMs were siding with Lea that she went to talk with Lea and told Lea she'd misread her. And I don't think she realised how many had nominated her. The list is impressive:
Mikey, otoh, didn't nominate her. Indeed, apart from Nikki, it was was Aisleyne's "friends" nominating her.
When Ash returned from the HND, she was very upset by what she'd had to do, deciding between Jonathan and Spiral, and had been agonising about how she might be being presented and perceived. So she may not have felt very powerful then.
The Grace defenders soldering-on regardless despite calm, factual and reasoned arguments made which paint St Grace in a less than pleasant light.
I've changed since then, as have most people I would think - even if only slightly.
The only thing that hasn't changed is that she still gets defended so strongly by complete strangers in a forum who don't know her and never did, and formed their opinions by watching her on TV
What I have learned is that those who defend her must know things about her that weren't aired on BB, such is the conviction that they are infinitely better placed to comment accurately on her conduct than everyone else.
Yes, but some thoughts don't fit with what actually happened. For example, if someone "thought" a HM did a triple handspring when they hadn't.
I think you are mixing up two different issues: whether I think their interpretations have to agree with mine (I don't) and whether what they claim happened ought to be consistent with what viewers saw and heard.
You just keep going round in circles but coming back to the same point-anyone who didn't think Grace was nice is wrong, anyone who "saw and heard" Grace being a cold nasty bitch, is wrong.
I don't think it's even an argument. Not everything we post is an argument.
Ok so there's no argument, you're simply claiming other posters are wrong and you are right. Kinda the point I was originally making. I'm glad we've finally come to the same conclusion.
The Grace defenders soldering-on regardless despite calm, factual and reasoned arguments made which paint St Grace in a less than pleasant light.
I've changed since then, as have most people I would think - even if only slightly.
The only thing that hasn't changed is that she still gets defended so strongly by people who don't know her and never did, and formed their opinions by watching her on their TV but for some reason consider themselves better placed to comment on her conduct than everyone else.
Amazing.
BIB: Surely the same is true of the dislikers? I strongly disliked Grace at the time of BB7, but thought that she redeemed herself a little in her exit interview and handled being evicted to the most hostile crowd any BB evictee had seen at that time, very well
With repeated viewing of BB7, I could see that she wasn't all bad; there was more to her than just the schoolgirl-bitchery, which she has likely matured out of with age.
I strongly disliked Grace at the time of BB7, but thought that she redeemed herself a little in her exit interview and handled being evicted to the most hostile crowd any BB evictee had seen at that time, very well
This I really disagree with. I thought her throwing the water in Susie's face showed that she handled being disliked by the public terribly, and her eviction interview was basically "oh well guess I'm a bitch ha ha" with no remorse whatsoever. Lisa from the same year is a better example of a housemate who handled a hostile crowd with some actual Grace (pun intended).
With repeated viewing of BB7, I could see that she wasn't all bad; there was more to her than just the schoolgirl-bitchery, which she has likely matured out of with age.
It's probably because at the time, Grace was seen by many to be the bitchiest HM we'd ever had so far. Some people would query that, but I think most would agree. And also, since BB7, we've had HMs who were just as bitchy, if not more than Grace was. I don't think we were used to that amount of bitchiness and nastiness that Grace showed when she was in the house.
And with the maturity - there have been several people since saying that she does seem to have matured and seems to be a nicer person now.
BIB: Surely the same is true of the dislikers? I strongly disliked Grace at the time of BB7, but thought that she redeemed herself a little in her exit interview and handled being evicted to the most hostile crowd any BB evictee had seen at that time, very well
With repeated viewing of BB7, I could see that she wasn't all bad; there was more to her than just the schoolgirl-bitchery, which she has likely matured out of with age.
Most people are not all bad but the OP did ask the question about why Grace was 'hated' so much and people have replied with honesty.
That the honest replies have not gone down well in some quarters is of no surprise to me because in the eyes of some, she could do no wrong.
I'm sorry, but giving fellow HMs a brief hug before leaving BB at eviction time is not a redeeming action or quality by any standard known to man and to offer that up as one smacks of desperation IMO
You just keep going round in circles but coming back to the same point-anyone who didn't think Grace was nice is wrong, anyone who "saw and heard" Grace being a cold nasty bitch, is wrong.
That isn't what I said.
Maybe you should go back and read your previous posts then.
Done. None of them said what you claimed.
Ok so there's no argument, you're simply claiming other posters are wrong and you are right. Kinda the point I was originally making. I'm glad we've finally come to the same conclusion.
I didn't say there was no argument, just that not every post is one.
It's probably because at the time, Grace was seen by many to be the bitchiest HM we'd ever had so far. Some people would query that, but I think most would agree. And also, since BB7, we've had HMs who were just as bitchy, if not more than Grace was. I don't think we were used to that amount of bitchiness and nastiness that Grace showed when she was in the house.
Anyone who watched BB6 or even CBB4 would have seen worse.
I see your point about when Ash was at her most powerful, that it was when she returned from the HND and was conciliatory, rather than when she'd been nominated and was unpleasant towards Lea and Nikki. But I'm not sure that's how it felt to Ash.
I think that, despite being nominated the week she went to the HND, Ash may have felt she still had a strong position in the house. It wasn't until she thought the other HMs were siding with Lea that she went to talk with Lea and told Lea she'd misread her. And I don't think she realised how many had nominated her. The list is impressive:
Mikey, otoh, didn't nominate her. Indeed, apart from Nikki, it was was Aisleyne's "friends" nominating her.
When Ash returned from the HND, she was very upset by what she'd had to do, deciding between Jonathan and Spiral, and had been agonising about how she might be being presented and perceived. So she may not have felt very powerful then.
I think she felt very vulnerable rather than powerful after being up for 'eviction'. She spoke to Susie about it, who I think nailed it when she said something very close to: " You thought they were your friends, but you were wrong--there's no friends in here" There was also the convo with Imogen along similar lines that week, as shown 46 seconds into this video, where she was agreeing with Imogen that she'd be lucky to walk out "with one friend" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKEKoyvYeYY
I agree that she probably didn't feel that strong when she first returned from the HND, even though others perceived her to be (rightly) in a strong position. Within a day or so though, she had pulled herself together and knew that she had the support of Michael, Spiral and Jennie along with her friendship with Imogen. Pete and Richard had both voiced there pleasure at her return as well, so I imagine that she knew that she was in a far stronger position than when she left!
There must be one in here somewhere which I've no doubt missed.
No there's not, but you're still completely wrong, and any opinions you formed from watching Grace during BB7 are also wrong. That's basically what this will come down to.
No there's not, but you're still completely wrong, and any opinions you formed from watching Grace during BB7 are also wrong. That's basically what this will come down to.
I'm getting that impression but if that's what is felt then I'd rather it was said as plainly and clearly as you've put it
I think she felt very vulnerable rather than powerful after being up for 'eviction'. She spoke to Susie about it, who I think nailed it when she said something very close to: " You thought they were your friends, but you were wrong--there's no friends in here" There was also the convo with Imogen along similar lines that week, as shown 46 seconds into this video, where she was agreeing with Imogen that she'd be lucky to walk out "with one friend" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKEKoyvYeYY
Ah, a good find. When was the conversation with Imogen, though, relative to Ash thinking the HMs were siding with Lea and telling Lea she'd misread her?
I agree that she probably didn't feel that strong when she first returned from the HND, even though others perceived her to be (rightly) in a strong position. Within a day or so though, she had pulled herself together and knew that she had the support of Michael, Spiral and Jennie along with her friendship with Imogen. Pete and Richard had both voiced there pleasure at her return as well, so I imagine that she knew that she was in a far stronger position than when she left!
The way Ash was post-HND is one of the hardest things in bb7 to interpret, especially how she was towards Nikki. It might be interesting to discuss it sometime in a less intemperate thread.
I'd be happy with 'any' as rebuttal arguments to what us detractors are saying.
I'll keep looking.
It will be interesting to see if any "detractors" can provide an explanation of why Grace "got such OTT levels of hatred" that actually fits what happened in bb7.
So far, none of their "arguments" even come close.
Ah, a good find. When was the conversation with Imogen, though, relative to Ash thinking the HMs were siding with Lea and telling Lea she'd misread her?
The way Ash was post-HND is one of the hardest things in bb7 to interpret, especially how she was towards Nikki. It might be interesting to discuss it sometime in a less intemperate thread.
This thread is about Grace, unless I have misunderstood the OPs meaning?
Why is drawing comparisons about Grace's conduct against Aisleyne's conduct even relevant?
Are some frustrated Grace fans still bitter (all these years on) that Ais was the last girl standing?
As I said in my post, "some people would query that, but I think most would agree". Not everyone, but most. Just my opinion, but hey ho.
If most would agree, I'd have to wonder why, if they'd watched bb6 or cbb4. It's not only "since BB7, we've had HMs who were just as bitchy, if not more than Grace was"; and there was OTT dislike for Grace before she'd even done most of the things people try to say explain the OTT dislike.
Comments
I see your point about when Ash was at her most powerful, that it was when she returned from the HND and was conciliatory, rather than when she'd been nominated and was unpleasant towards Lea and Nikki. But I'm not sure that's how it felt to Ash.
I think that, despite being nominated the week she went to the HND, Ash may have felt she still had a strong position in the house. It wasn't until she thought the other HMs were siding with Lea that she went to talk with Lea and told Lea she'd misread her. And I don't think she realised how many had nominated her. The list is impressive:
Glyn: Richard, Aisleyne
Richard: Imogen, Aisleyne
Nikki: Aisleyne, Susie
Lea: Aisleyne, Susie
Mikey, otoh, didn't nominate her. Indeed, apart from Nikki, it was was Aisleyne's "friends" nominating her.
When Ash returned from the HND, she was very upset by what she'd had to do, deciding between Jonathan and Spiral, and had been agonising about how she might be being presented and perceived. So she may not have felt very powerful then.
The Grace defenders soldering-on regardless despite calm, factual and reasoned arguments made which paint St Grace in a less than pleasant light.
I've changed since then, as have most people I would think - even if only slightly.
The only thing that hasn't changed is that she still gets defended so strongly by complete strangers in a forum who don't know her and never did, and formed their opinions by watching her on TV
What I have learned is that those who defend her must know things about her that weren't aired on BB, such is the conviction that they are infinitely better placed to comment accurately on her conduct than everyone else.
Amazing.
You just keep going round in circles but coming back to the same point-anyone who didn't think Grace was nice is wrong, anyone who "saw and heard" Grace being a cold nasty bitch, is wrong.
Maybe you should go back and read your previous posts then.
Ok so there's no argument, you're simply claiming other posters are wrong and you are right. Kinda the point I was originally making. I'm glad we've finally come to the same conclusion.
BIB: Surely the same is true of the dislikers? I strongly disliked Grace at the time of BB7, but thought that she redeemed herself a little in her exit interview and handled being evicted to the most hostile crowd any BB evictee had seen at that time, very well
With repeated viewing of BB7, I could see that she wasn't all bad; there was more to her than just the schoolgirl-bitchery, which she has likely matured out of with age.
This I really disagree with. I thought her throwing the water in Susie's face showed that she handled being disliked by the public terribly, and her eviction interview was basically "oh well guess I'm a bitch ha ha" with no remorse whatsoever. Lisa from the same year is a better example of a housemate who handled a hostile crowd with some actual Grace (pun intended).
It's probably because at the time, Grace was seen by many to be the bitchiest HM we'd ever had so far. Some people would query that, but I think most would agree. And also, since BB7, we've had HMs who were just as bitchy, if not more than Grace was. I don't think we were used to that amount of bitchiness and nastiness that Grace showed when she was in the house.
And with the maturity - there have been several people since saying that she does seem to have matured and seems to be a nicer person now.
That the honest replies have not gone down well in some quarters is of no surprise to me because in the eyes of some, she could do no wrong.
I'm sorry, but giving fellow HMs a brief hug before leaving BB at eviction time is not a redeeming action or quality by any standard known to man and to offer that up as one smacks of desperation IMO
That isn't what I said.
Done. None of them said what you claimed.
I didn't say there was no argument, just that not every post is one.
No one said it was.
Anyone who watched BB6 or even CBB4 would have seen worse.
So we can agree then that she actually had no redeeming qualities as was stated earlier.
I think she felt very vulnerable rather than powerful after being up for 'eviction'. She spoke to Susie about it, who I think nailed it when she said something very close to: " You thought they were your friends, but you were wrong--there's no friends in here" There was also the convo with Imogen along similar lines that week, as shown 46 seconds into this video, where she was agreeing with Imogen that she'd be lucky to walk out "with one friend" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKEKoyvYeYY
I agree that she probably didn't feel that strong when she first returned from the HND, even though others perceived her to be (rightly) in a strong position. Within a day or so though, she had pulled herself together and knew that she had the support of Michael, Spiral and Jennie along with her friendship with Imogen. Pete and Richard had both voiced there pleasure at her return as well, so I imagine that she knew that she was in a far stronger position than when she left!
We can agree that giving fellow HMs a brief hug before leaving BB at eviction time is not especially redeeming.
We can't agree with the falsehood that she had no redeeming qualities.
There must be one in here somewhere which I've no doubt missed.
No, not word for word, but that's the conclusion you keep coming back to.
Well then your previous posts don't make sense as there was no point in referencing another post for not using imo in the first place.
We're still coming back to the same conclusion as I said. You're just taking an "I'm right, you're wrong" stance.
Most aren't even mentioned in this thread.
No there's not, but you're still completely wrong, and any opinions you formed from watching Grace during BB7 are also wrong. That's basically what this will come down to.
No, it's not.
They make sense, but it would be tedious to explain why, so I won't.
And you don't think you're right? The people who dislike Grace don't think they're right? Come on!
As I said in my post, "some people would query that, but I think most would agree". Not everyone, but most. Just my opinion, but hey ho.
I'll keep looking.
At that point, I will bail
Ah, a good find. When was the conversation with Imogen, though, relative to Ash thinking the HMs were siding with Lea and telling Lea she'd misread her?
The way Ash was post-HND is one of the hardest things in bb7 to interpret, especially how she was towards Nikki. It might be interesting to discuss it sometime in a less intemperate thread.
It will be interesting to see if any "detractors" can provide an explanation of why Grace "got such OTT levels of hatred" that actually fits what happened in bb7.
So far, none of their "arguments" even come close.
Why is drawing comparisons about Grace's conduct against Aisleyne's conduct even relevant?
Are some frustrated Grace fans still bitter (all these years on) that Ais was the last girl standing?
The last comment was rhetorical
If most would agree, I'd have to wonder why, if they'd watched bb6 or cbb4. It's not only "since BB7, we've had HMs who were just as bitchy, if not more than Grace was"; and there was OTT dislike for Grace before she'd even done most of the things people try to say explain the OTT dislike.