Well they can look after more seeing as they are in debt.
Their fair share is without the debt burden.
They can't look after their own people, let alone the thousands of refugees turning up on their shores. I suppose they'll just have to turn a blind eye as those refugees make their way across the border into other EU countries around them. Or maybe even as far as Calais, or further....
and you, my friend, need to stop swallowing the tired old establishment bollocks that austerity is the only way out of the financial soup.
I'm no socialist and don't believe that whole scale collectivism is ever a realistic or desirable way to run an economy but the Greek situation is one in which the ordinary people have been offered unpalatable and difficult options either way but I'm glad they've shown some self respect and have made it very clear that they won't simply be walked all over by EU mandarins.
Read your history books, if the German people hadn't had a huge percentage of their crippling post Second World War debt written off, they'd have faced a generation of desperate struggle against the backdrop of uncertainty and austerity and probably another lurch towards the political extremes. Thankfully, the 1950's saw a Europe that had yet to fall under the spell of neo-liberal dogma and the German people were shown a degree of compassion and benevolence sadly lacking today.
and then open your mind to other solutions, rather than just trotting out the nonsense that the establishment would have you believe.
Problem is I do read history books and not just 1 story in a paper . West Germany in the 1950's was largely run by the western powers. German's ran the local day to day council level affairs while the west powers run the country.
The prime concern at the time was soviet Russian to the east of the country. To combat the growing Russian presence the allied powers needed a strong Germany which had once been a power house of Europe. The debt write off had nothing to do with compassion and benevolence it was to do with security. I doubt the debts would have been written of to anything like that level had Germany not been split into East and West.
I would also like to point out Greece is not Germany. I don't mean that in a fact sense but in any other aspect. Germany had a strong economical position prior to the war due in part to their central location in Europe. They are a main transfer of goods going east to west and west to east. They have a number of highly industrial sectors and one of the highest productivity rates in the world.
Now if you contrast that to Greece and this is nothing against the people but the fact is the economy is weak. The governments and general level of corruption is high across the country. It has little in the way of major exports or natural resources. The main stay of the economic is tourism which is volatile at the best of times.
Greece before joining the EU was in debt and have massive problems. Actually Greece inside the Euro gave it stability and access to cheap funds. The cost of borrowing was much less.
This may shock you but under the EU the people of Greece benefited. Interest rates fell, wages increased pension rates went up etc. If they leave the EU all that goes out the window. they return to the high interest, low wages, high unemployment they had before they joined the EU.
The austerity they have now is still better than what they will have if they leave the EU. They are not going to make Greece an economic powerhouse like Germnay, they dont have the oil Russian had to get out its default.
The bottom line is even if they cancel out all the debt they will still need to cut back, they will still need to borrow money but it will cost them even higher rates of interest. So they will have to cut back even more than with austerity you do understand this ?
One thing is certain. Tonight, Greek people have won big time! Things will change as of tomorrow, I'm sure. No doubt that everyone will now come to an agreement acceptable to both parties, and no doubt EU will have to make sacrifices if they want to save the EU and Eurozone, and stop the crises deepen even further by enticing other countries in Europe such as Spain and Portugal to do the same thing Greeks did, and so far, it's obvious they succeeded.
Europe won't be Europe as we know it as of tonight. Things will change either for better or for worse. I think EU will have to become more social and to start thinking more about ordinary people as well and not just banks and big corporations. Well done Greece.
What I don't understand from the posters claiming this to be a victory is what you think will actually happen?
The Greek people have not won they lose either way. They accept the terms of the deal and have to cut back on spending. If they reject the deal spending is cut anyway and they run out of money.
If you think the banks are going to lose your mad. Greek business and even the general public need a banking service. Most of us cannot afford to buy a house outright so we need to borrow the money. The same is true of governments they need to borrow the money and it is the same banks that will lend them the money and now they will charge them even higher interest rates.
I dont think a lot of people have a clue how the system works. You cannot run a modern economy by trading a chicken for half a days work. Hate them if you want but I bet almost everyone on this board has a bank account and I expect a mortgage.
It is the reality of the world. you cannot beat the system all you can do drop out of it. If you ideal life is living in a hut on the beach growing your own crops then fair enough. However that is not a life most of use choose to lead.
So wake up to the real world.
Simple Its better to die on your feet than die on your knees. Just ask the ex scabs around Mansfield,Notts
One thing is certain. Tonight, Greek people have won big time! Things will change as of tomorrow, I'm sure. No doubt that everyone will now come to an agreement acceptable to both parties, and no doubt EU will have to make sacrifices if they want to save the EU and Eurozone, and stop the crises deepen even further by enticing other countries in Europe such as Spain and Portugal to do the same thing Greeks did, and so far, it's obvious they succeeded.
Europe won't be Europe as we know it as of tonight. Things will change either for better or for worse. I think EU will have to become more social and to start thinking more about ordinary people as well and not just banks and big corporations. Well done Greece.
This is literally not gonna happen.
Nice wishful thinking, but not a cat in hells change.
Tourism has already been badly affected with many holidays cancelled in the last week or so. They can't build ships without importing the materials, and without cash they can't buy a screw!
tourism has been very sluggish in Greece this year. The locals were complaininG hOw quiet it was as compared to normal. The streets & bars were empty when they should have been busy or full. Hardly a British accent was heard anywhere I visited. Lotsa Germans werearound but given the anti German feeling that must be felt in Greece right now, if I was German I'd think twice about visiting right now.
I know people who are changing their plans to go to Greece this summer. Some will switch their plans & some will pull out. Who'd want to go to a country that volatile with banks with no money & no services etc.
and you, my friend, need to stop swallowing the tired old establishment bollocks that austerity is the only way out of the financial soup.
I'm no socialist and don't believe that whole scale collectivism is ever a realistic or desirable way to run an economy but the Greek situation is one in which the ordinary people have been offered unpalatable and difficult options either way but I'm glad they've shown some self respect and have made it very clear that they won't simply be walked all over by EU mandarins.
Read your history books, if the German people hadn't had a huge percentage of their crippling post Second World War debt written off, they'd have faced a generation of desperate struggle against the backdrop of uncertainty and austerity and probably another lurch towards the political extremes. Thankfully, the 1950's saw a Europe that had yet to fall under the spell of neo-liberal dogma and the German people were shown a degree of compassion and benevolence sadly lacking today.
and then open your mind to other solutions, rather than just trotting out the nonsense that the establishment would have you believe.
Though this happened the Marshall Aid plan in addition was either the greatest foreign policy move by the US, which bought loyalty whilst also ensuring Britain, France and West Germany towed the line.......or the worst in that it ensured Europen security dependend on American investment, spply of arms even in some respects sharing of nuclear technology. The yanks extracted a high price for their involvement in WW2, they basically shafted Europe by ensuring commodities were traded in dollars as opposed to sterling.
America didn't go into this without motives, they knew what was up for grabs when surrender was delcared that November morning. Forever since has Europe been in hoc to them.
Back to the present day....
I admire what the people of Greece has done, not merely by voting down the bailout but also the finger to the status quo. Greece are going to run into problems whether they leave or stay in the Euro that much we can agree. I have been waiting for an uprising of sorts to happen in the EU never mind the Eurozone. This I think will be the straw that broke the camels back, the far left and right of Italy, Spain and Portugal will be following this very closes. Frau Merkel will be shitting herself as to how she can navigate this mess. Hollande will predictably take a more Pro France line on this, necessitating Merkel seeks shelter. France, Italy and Spain will be the countries to watch, doens't matter how big Germany's economic boots are, if they even splinter or break it will all come down with a thud. Economically I think the Eurozone will broadly remain flat, not really growing or contracting.
I also think this will give Cameron the ammunition he needs for his plans and the EU referendum. Greece may have just about put the kybosh on "Ever closer union" unintentionally. I hope what does come from this is an EU that listens and responds to the views of member states more concilliatory. I hope this is the wake up call the EU needs to get back to the business of a single market and not interfering in domestic markets over where it has too much power.
One anecdote I got from a colleague, when Syriza came to power the printing presses in Greece were being warmed up in the event of a Eurozone exit......apparently they can roll out the New Drachma within a matter of days not weeks.
The sheer utter delusion of folks congratulating the Greeks is staggering. Just watch and learn.
Exactly. I'm not on the Right & am no fan of austerity but even from my position the nativity being displayed online & on social media tonight is shocking.
Bet you won't all be so rose tinted spectacles in a few days once the Greek gov are launching crackdowns on their own people to stop them looting.
It's just s matter of time before the mood turns very ugly over there. They have 2 unpleasant choices to chose between-I'm not sure theyve gone for the better option.
Exactly. I'm not on the Right & am no fan of austerity but even from my position the nativity being displayed online & on social media tonight is shocking.
Bet you won't all be so rose tinted spectacles in a few days once the Greek gov are launching crackdowns on their own people to stop them looting.
It's just s matter of time before the mood turns very ugly over there. They have 2 unpleasant choices to chose between-I'm not sure theyve gone for the better option.
Before things can get better they have to get a whole lot worse.
This is just the way it has to happen. Capitalism is failing and there can be no smooth transition.
Before things can get better they have to get a whole lot worse.
This is just the way it has to happen. Capitalism is failing and there can be no smooth transition.
Yes but I think people are thinking Greece will be OKish in a coupl of years or so. This is unchartered waters & Greece may not recover for decades, if not ever.
And don't expect the tourism industry to help.i was in Greece recently
tourist numbers were already down even before this current crisis this week
Yes but I think people are thinking Greece will be OKish in a coupl of years or so. This is unchartered waters & Greece may not recover for decades, if not ever.
And don't expect the tourism industry to help.i was in Greece recently
tourist numbers were already down even before this current crisis this week
I don't think anybody is thinking that.
It's going to take a long time for the tentacles of capitalism, fractional reserve banking and corporate corruption to be hacked apart.
This is still a fantastic start though. God speed to the Greeks - the architects, and now saviours of modern democracy
Yes but I think people are thinking Greece will be OKish in a coupl of years or so. This is unchartered waters & Greece may not recover for decades, if not ever.
And don't expect the tourism industry to help.i was in Greece recently
tourist numbers were already down even before this current crisis this week
No one on this board has suggested either option will be easy for Greece. Should they leave there will be an immense short term cost, however it is recognised in about 5-7 years they could come out the other end better off. Yet they could continue with the bailout and reform their economy.....though they would be damned for a generation paying back money they can't afford....they are paying back debt with debt......
Leaving the Euro is the only logical option if the Troika doesn't offer debt relief and restructuring.
and you, my friend, need to stop swallowing the tired old establishment bollocks that austerity is the only way out of the financial soup.
I'm no socialist and don't believe that whole scale collectivism is ever a realistic or desirable way to run an economy but the Greek situation is one in which the ordinary people have been offered unpalatable and difficult options either way but I'm glad they've shown some self respect and have made it very clear that they won't simply be walked all over by EU mandarins.
Read your history books, if the German people hadn't had a huge percentage of their crippling post Second World War debt written off, they'd have faced a generation of desperate struggle against the backdrop of uncertainty and austerity and probably another lurch towards the political extremes. Thankfully, the 1950's saw a Europe that had yet to fall under the spell of neo-liberal dogma and the German people were shown a degree of compassion and benevolence sadly lacking today.
and then open your mind to other solutions, rather than just trotting out the nonsense that the establishment would have you believe.
Excellent post. It's not that different from individuals being so overwhelmed with debt they declare themselves bankrupt knowing this will make their life very very difficult for the next few years but at least put a finite end to the long term misery.
60% youth unemployment, proper austerity resulting in 25% shrinking of the economy (which then makes the national debt even bigger in proportion to money in - or GDP). And the next 5 years guaranteed to be far worse than the previous 5 years of austerity so far. And bankers just making money out of their misery, because the bail outs only go to make the repayments on the already impossible to pay back debt, presumably Greece were only lent money because the banks were promised a profit on the loans to Greece irrespective if Greece defaulted or not, and the IMF and EU have been true to their word so far. The Greek economy and living standards are now being compared to the great depression of 1930s, yet the next 5 years are meant to be worse. Hmm, wonder why they just voted for bankruptcy
The bottom line is even if they cancel out all the debt they will still need to cut back, they will still need to borrow money but it will cost them even higher rates of interest. So they will have to cut back even more than with austerity you do understand this ?
Going forward yes. But currently Greece are running a primary budget surplus i.e. without interest and debt repayments the govt is now bringing in more money than it spends. Further austerity is needed to meet terms of bail out deal, which will kill the already barely alive economy. Last 6 or 7 paras: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/16/opinion/paul-krugman-weimar-on-the-aegean.html?_r=0
Greece has very different problems from just about every other country that has been in this sort of trouble. There is no point making comparisons, there aren't any valid ones. The other countries have tended to have a one-off type of issue. Greece has ingrained systematic problems that they don't want to go away.
Any surplus has been achieved because of the conditions imposed upon them. Once the leash is off, they will return to the bad old ways. What can they spend the surplus on? They need foreign currency to purchase imports.
Comments
They're already looking after more than their fair share.
Well they can look after more seeing as they are in debt.
Their fair share is without the debt burden.
They can't look after their own people, let alone the thousands of refugees turning up on their shores. I suppose they'll just have to turn a blind eye as those refugees make their way across the border into other EU countries around them. Or maybe even as far as Calais, or further....
Problem is I do read history books and not just 1 story in a paper
The prime concern at the time was soviet Russian to the east of the country. To combat the growing Russian presence the allied powers needed a strong Germany which had once been a power house of Europe. The debt write off had nothing to do with compassion and benevolence it was to do with security. I doubt the debts would have been written of to anything like that level had Germany not been split into East and West.
I would also like to point out Greece is not Germany. I don't mean that in a fact sense but in any other aspect. Germany had a strong economical position prior to the war due in part to their central location in Europe. They are a main transfer of goods going east to west and west to east. They have a number of highly industrial sectors and one of the highest productivity rates in the world.
Now if you contrast that to Greece and this is nothing against the people but the fact is the economy is weak. The governments and general level of corruption is high across the country. It has little in the way of major exports or natural resources. The main stay of the economic is tourism which is volatile at the best of times.
Greece before joining the EU was in debt and have massive problems. Actually Greece inside the Euro gave it stability and access to cheap funds. The cost of borrowing was much less.
This may shock you but under the EU the people of Greece benefited. Interest rates fell, wages increased pension rates went up etc. If they leave the EU all that goes out the window. they return to the high interest, low wages, high unemployment they had before they joined the EU.
The austerity they have now is still better than what they will have if they leave the EU. They are not going to make Greece an economic powerhouse like Germnay, they dont have the oil Russian had to get out its default.
The bottom line is even if they cancel out all the debt they will still need to cut back, they will still need to borrow money but it will cost them even higher rates of interest. So they will have to cut back even more than with austerity you do understand this ?
Well no-ones asked them, presumably their governments would not like the answer
OXI!!!!!!
We have all won tonight not only the greeks
They paid it back though.
This is literally not gonna happen.
Nice wishful thinking, but not a cat in hells change.
tourism has been very sluggish in Greece this year. The locals were complaininG hOw quiet it was as compared to normal. The streets & bars were empty when they should have been busy or full. Hardly a British accent was heard anywhere I visited. Lotsa Germans werearound but given the anti German feeling that must be felt in Greece right now, if I was German I'd think twice about visiting right now.
I know people who are changing their plans to go to Greece this summer. Some will switch their plans & some will pull out. Who'd want to go to a country that volatile with banks with no money & no services etc.
Indeed. This is the beginning of the end for the status quo.
Best bit of news we've had for weeks, congratulations to the Greek people
Really, and thats a bad thing?
Though this happened the Marshall Aid plan in addition was either the greatest foreign policy move by the US, which bought loyalty whilst also ensuring Britain, France and West Germany towed the line.......or the worst in that it ensured Europen security dependend on American investment, spply of arms even in some respects sharing of nuclear technology. The yanks extracted a high price for their involvement in WW2, they basically shafted Europe by ensuring commodities were traded in dollars as opposed to sterling.
America didn't go into this without motives, they knew what was up for grabs when surrender was delcared that November morning. Forever since has Europe been in hoc to them.
Back to the present day....
I admire what the people of Greece has done, not merely by voting down the bailout but also the finger to the status quo. Greece are going to run into problems whether they leave or stay in the Euro that much we can agree. I have been waiting for an uprising of sorts to happen in the EU never mind the Eurozone. This I think will be the straw that broke the camels back, the far left and right of Italy, Spain and Portugal will be following this very closes. Frau Merkel will be shitting herself as to how she can navigate this mess. Hollande will predictably take a more Pro France line on this, necessitating Merkel seeks shelter. France, Italy and Spain will be the countries to watch, doens't matter how big Germany's economic boots are, if they even splinter or break it will all come down with a thud. Economically I think the Eurozone will broadly remain flat, not really growing or contracting.
I also think this will give Cameron the ammunition he needs for his plans and the EU referendum. Greece may have just about put the kybosh on "Ever closer union" unintentionally. I hope what does come from this is an EU that listens and responds to the views of member states more concilliatory. I hope this is the wake up call the EU needs to get back to the business of a single market and not interfering in domestic markets over where it has too much power.
One anecdote I got from a colleague, when Syriza came to power the printing presses in Greece were being warmed up in the event of a Eurozone exit......apparently they can roll out the New Drachma within a matter of days not weeks.
You seem to think we all like the status quo.
I want the economy to catastrophically burn to the ground. That's the only way we'll ever get any sort of change.
Exactly. I'm not on the Right & am no fan of austerity but even from my position the nativity being displayed online & on social media tonight is shocking.
Bet you won't all be so rose tinted spectacles in a few days once the Greek gov are launching crackdowns on their own people to stop them looting.
It's just s matter of time before the mood turns very ugly over there. They have 2 unpleasant choices to chose between-I'm not sure theyve gone for the better option.
Before things can get better they have to get a whole lot worse.
This is just the way it has to happen. Capitalism is failing and there can be no smooth transition.
Yes but I think people are thinking Greece will be OKish in a coupl of years or so. This is unchartered waters & Greece may not recover for decades, if not ever.
And don't expect the tourism industry to help.i was in Greece recently
tourist numbers were already down even before this current crisis this week
I don't think anybody is thinking that.
It's going to take a long time for the tentacles of capitalism, fractional reserve banking and corporate corruption to be hacked apart.
This is still a fantastic start though. God speed to the Greeks - the architects, and now saviours of modern democracy
No one on this board has suggested either option will be easy for Greece. Should they leave there will be an immense short term cost, however it is recognised in about 5-7 years they could come out the other end better off. Yet they could continue with the bailout and reform their economy.....though they would be damned for a generation paying back money they can't afford....they are paying back debt with debt......
Leaving the Euro is the only logical option if the Troika doesn't offer debt relief and restructuring.
What other choices are there?
Excellent post. It's not that different from individuals being so overwhelmed with debt they declare themselves bankrupt knowing this will make their life very very difficult for the next few years but at least put a finite end to the long term misery.
60% youth unemployment, proper austerity resulting in 25% shrinking of the economy (which then makes the national debt even bigger in proportion to money in - or GDP). And the next 5 years guaranteed to be far worse than the previous 5 years of austerity so far. And bankers just making money out of their misery, because the bail outs only go to make the repayments on the already impossible to pay back debt, presumably Greece were only lent money because the banks were promised a profit on the loans to Greece irrespective if Greece defaulted or not, and the IMF and EU have been true to their word so far. The Greek economy and living standards are now being compared to the great depression of 1930s, yet the next 5 years are meant to be worse. Hmm, wonder why they just voted for bankruptcy
Going forward yes. But currently Greece are running a primary budget surplus i.e. without interest and debt repayments the govt is now bringing in more money than it spends. Further austerity is needed to meet terms of bail out deal, which will kill the already barely alive economy. Last 6 or 7 paras:
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/16/opinion/paul-krugman-weimar-on-the-aegean.html?_r=0
Alternatively default/bankruptcy turned out the better option for Argentina, although they may have had more things going for them than Greece. Or they may not, hence their desperation for some of that Falkland Islands oil. See point 5
http://jubileedebt.org.uk/reports-briefings/briefing/six-key-points-greek-debt-weeks-election
Any surplus has been achieved because of the conditions imposed upon them. Once the leash is off, they will return to the bad old ways. What can they spend the surplus on? They need foreign currency to purchase imports.