3 League titles and 2 runners up in 5 years is NOT a sign of overachieving. That is the standards you have set and it is a consistent demonstration of ability and quality over a set period of time. Overachieving would be one good season in a sea of disappointment - thats the very definition of the word. When you are winning or challenging year after year after year that is NOT overachieving.
For the last two years at least the United squad, man-for-man, was not the best in the league. Ferguson's man management got them up there along with tactical know how and inside knowledge of the club. And the players gave him everything.
Everything Ferguson had Moyes lacked. And the players didn't give him everything in return.
I'm not the only one to say the players didn't give it their all for Moyes though. Paul Scholes said much the same thing, as have many others in the footballing world.
For the last two years at least the United squad, man-for-man, was not the best in the league. Ferguson's man management got them up there along with tactical know how and inside knowledge of the club. And the players gave him everything.
Everything Ferguson had Moyes lacked. And the players didn't give him everything in return.
You don't have to have the best man for man players, you need to create a team, that's where Fergie's talent lied and moyes didn't.
Not a team at top end level, anyway. He did a decent job at building a team at Everton.
And clearly showed that was his level and no more. Doesn't change the fact that saying United haven't had the best man for man players previously is irrelevant
Football was a completely different animal in 1986. Immediate success was required.
In fairness to Moyes (and other similarly sacked managers from top roles) on that particular point, it was also a lot easier to improve a club at that time. Other than the Merseyside pair the clubs were much of a muchness and no great target to surpass. Graham, Ferguson and others all took clubs who were a while without title success, lacked the professional ethic and improved them, fairly swiftly.
Man Utd were still the 3rd best side in country at that time, despite that (they were only 1.point of Liverpool the season before last). Whilst not comparing the two and acknowledging Moyes did look out of his depth at times, you could argue on the day of his first match Man Utd were again the 3rd best side and a little off the top 2.
I'm not the only one to say the players didn't give it their all for Moyes though. Paul Scholes said much the same thing, as have many others in the footballing world.
Yet how many are asking why?
The concept that the players have been overachieving by winning consistently over a long period is the bit I take issue with. The manner in which the abilities of Man Utd footballers as footballers have been utterly dismissed retrospectively in order to cover up for the ineptitude of Moyes this season just amazes me. Suddenly the best team doesn't win the league any more while at the same time the league table is apparently currently a perfect illustration of our place in the football pecking order.
I'm not the only one to say the players didn't give it their all for Moyes though. Paul Scholes said much the same thing, as have many others in the footballing world.
You've got to admit though, you've been waffling on about the same thing for two days now. It's like a massive waffle burger with a paper thin slice of meat.
You've got to admit though, you've been waffling on about the same thing for two days now. It's like a massive waffle burger with a paper thin slice of meat.
Like other people have been waffling all over about how dire Moyes has been?
You don't have to have the best man for man players, you need to create a team, that's where Fergie's talent lied and moyes didn't.
I think Fergie got the last good season out of the oldies. This season, the oldies were always going to struggle. Then chuck in RVP's injuries, Rooney's worthy but not match winning displays and a bunch of average performances from average players, it's no surprise they flopped. They did well to make the top 10!!
The concept that the players have been overachieving by winning consistently over a long period is the bit I take issue with. The manner in which the abilities of Man Utd footballers as footballers have been utterly dismissed retrospectively in order to cover up for the ineptitude of Moyes this season just amazes me. Suddenly the best team doesn't win the league any more while at the same time the league table is apparently currently a perfect illustration of our place in the football pecking order.
I don't think they've been over-achieving over a long period - I would say over the last couple of seasons maybe as certain weaknesses started to manifest that were not... or could not... be rectified (though not to the extent that they were the seventh best squad in the league). I think over the same period Manchester City and Chelsea, for numerous reasons, have underachieved somewhat comparing the man-for-man squads. The difference was United had the best manager, arguably in the world, at that point and his club and tactical knowledge plus no punches spared man management pulled his side through.
Moyes' weaknesses were horribly exposed at his time at Old Trafford. It can easily be argued that he should have been able to motivate the players and their lacklustre response is his issue to solve. Others will argue they should have pulled their socks up anyway. For whatever reason - from my point of view it was a real lack of top level experience - it didn't work out and I don't think United will make the same error in the next appointment.
Though if they hire Giggs full time it will probably (though not definitely) be a case of out of the frying pan and into the fire.
I'm not the only one to say the players didn't give it their all for Moyes though. Paul Scholes said much the same thing, as have many others in the footballing world.
They certainly didn't. I also think some of the senior players were amongst the worst.
Wouldn't like to wish any ill on anyone but it would be quite funny if when they are relaxing on their jollies a few rogue bees were to fly up their swimming trucks and sting them on their sorry arses.
I can speak from personal experience that a bee sting on the backside is indeed an eyewatering experience.
Yes *sniff*, poor Moyes what will he do with that ten million pound payoff? *sniff*
?
Whilst I am sure he isn't poor its been reported he won't get that much in terms of a pay-off due to a clause in his contracting relating to not getting Champions league football.
Sure he has some personal pride so will be disappointed.
I'm not the only one to say the players didn't give it their all for Moyes though. Paul Scholes said much the same thing, as have many others in the footballing world.
No, but then again Everton players gave there all for Moyes, and didn't really progress, Martinez came in and they look a better team and have progressed with more or less the same squad. Moyes was the problem, not the players.
For the last two years at least the United squad, man-for-man, was not the best in the league. Ferguson's man management got them up there along with tactical know how and inside knowledge of the club. And the players gave him everything.
Everything Ferguson had Moyes lacked. And the players didn't give him everything in return.
That isn't overachieving though, even in the last two years. That is a combination of exceptional international footballers (not a rag tag bunch of misfits by a long chalk) and the greatest manager we have ever seen on these shores putting together a fantastic series of achievements befitting that status.
Like other people have been waffling all over about how dire Moyes has been?
Well, the results don't lie. Opinions can be whatever you want them to be but spending over £60m and losing virtually no one of huge significance going forward should in no circumstance have resulted in a drop from clear champions down to 7th place. Not even above a Tottenham side who have been faffing all season.
No, but then again Everton players gave there all for Moyes, and didn't really progress, Martinez came in and they look a better team and have progressed with more or less the same squad. Moyes was the problem, not the players.
Im not defending Moyes or knocking Martinez but surely the additions of Barry, Lukaku, the other boy on loan that i could possibly attempt to spell and the emergence of Ross Barkley all this season is quite a significant change of personnel thats been instrumental to the season that you're having?
Im not defending Moyes or knocking Martinez but surely the additions of Barry, Lukaku, the other boy on loan that i could possibly attempt to spell and the emergence of Ross Barkley all this season is quite a significant change of personnel thats been instrumental to the season that you're having?
I'm not saying those players didn't help, and lets not forget McCarthy either as he certainly is worth a mention...would Moyes have brought those players in? probably not. But Martinez is a more positive manager, in most games I always felt that if we went behind we could still get a result, I never felt that way with Moyes, I don't know if you felt the same.
To be honest with you, Man Utd would probably have been better giving Moyes a limited transfer budget this season, as that is probably how he works best. Though I doubt the fans would have been happy about that.
To be honest with you, Man Utd would probably have been better giving Moyes a limited transfer budget this season, as that is probably how he works best. Though I doubt the fans would have been happy about that.
That type of scenario only works to a certain level which is why 6th,7th, 8th place is where moyes has spent most of his career. It would be fine for certain clubs but not for a club that has spent 20 yrs dominating league football.
Comments
For the last two years at least the United squad, man-for-man, was not the best in the league. Ferguson's man management got them up there along with tactical know how and inside knowledge of the club. And the players gave him everything.
Everything Ferguson had Moyes lacked. And the players didn't give him everything in return.
When most people get sacked all they get is a kick up the ar*e, why should anybody feel sorry for somebody being rewarded for failure?
Yes, money makes everything better.
How dare any football employee have feelings, with the kind of money that they're on?
Moyes had his one shot and failed. I doubt that he's feeling anything other than absolute shame and disappointment.
Charming.
I'm not the only one to say the players didn't give it their all for Moyes though. Paul Scholes said much the same thing, as have many others in the footballing world.
You don't have to have the best man for man players, you need to create a team, that's where Fergie's talent lied and moyes didn't.
Not a team at top end level, anyway. He did a decent job at building a team at Everton.
And clearly showed that was his level and no more. Doesn't change the fact that saying United haven't had the best man for man players previously is irrelevant
In fairness to Moyes (and other similarly sacked managers from top roles) on that particular point, it was also a lot easier to improve a club at that time. Other than the Merseyside pair the clubs were much of a muchness and no great target to surpass. Graham, Ferguson and others all took clubs who were a while without title success, lacked the professional ethic and improved them, fairly swiftly.
Man Utd were still the 3rd best side in country at that time, despite that (they were only 1.point of Liverpool the season before last). Whilst not comparing the two and acknowledging Moyes did look out of his depth at times, you could argue on the day of his first match Man Utd were again the 3rd best side and a little off the top 2.
Yet how many are asking why?
The concept that the players have been overachieving by winning consistently over a long period is the bit I take issue with. The manner in which the abilities of Man Utd footballers as footballers have been utterly dismissed retrospectively in order to cover up for the ineptitude of Moyes this season just amazes me. Suddenly the best team doesn't win the league any more while at the same time the league table is apparently currently a perfect illustration of our place in the football pecking order.
You've got to admit though, you've been waffling on about the same thing for two days now. It's like a massive waffle burger with a paper thin slice of meat.
Like other people have been waffling all over about how dire Moyes has been?
Yes his reputation is in tatters, but his payoff does soften the blow and it won't be long before he's in another job.
I doubt that the money is even a consideration. The bloke's been a Premier League manager for 12 years.
I'm sure that he'll be fine, but the whole 'money' argument doesn't negate all else, in my opinion.
I don't think they've been over-achieving over a long period - I would say over the last couple of seasons maybe as certain weaknesses started to manifest that were not... or could not... be rectified (though not to the extent that they were the seventh best squad in the league). I think over the same period Manchester City and Chelsea, for numerous reasons, have underachieved somewhat comparing the man-for-man squads. The difference was United had the best manager, arguably in the world, at that point and his club and tactical knowledge plus no punches spared man management pulled his side through.
Moyes' weaknesses were horribly exposed at his time at Old Trafford. It can easily be argued that he should have been able to motivate the players and their lacklustre response is his issue to solve. Others will argue they should have pulled their socks up anyway. For whatever reason - from my point of view it was a real lack of top level experience - it didn't work out and I don't think United will make the same error in the next appointment.
Though if they hire Giggs full time it will probably (though not definitely) be a case of out of the frying pan and into the fire.
They certainly didn't. I also think some of the senior players were amongst the worst.
Wouldn't like to wish any ill on anyone but it would be quite funny if when they are relaxing on their jollies a few rogue bees were to fly up their swimming trucks and sting them on their sorry arses.
I can speak from personal experience that a bee sting on the backside is indeed an eyewatering experience.
Whilst I am sure he isn't poor its been reported he won't get that much in terms of a pay-off due to a clause in his contracting relating to not getting Champions league football.
Sure he has some personal pride so will be disappointed.
No, but then again Everton players gave there all for Moyes, and didn't really progress, Martinez came in and they look a better team and have progressed with more or less the same squad. Moyes was the problem, not the players.
That isn't overachieving though, even in the last two years. That is a combination of exceptional international footballers (not a rag tag bunch of misfits by a long chalk) and the greatest manager we have ever seen on these shores putting together a fantastic series of achievements befitting that status.
Well, the results don't lie. Opinions can be whatever you want them to be but spending over £60m and losing virtually no one of huge significance going forward should in no circumstance have resulted in a drop from clear champions down to 7th place. Not even above a Tottenham side who have been faffing all season.
Im not defending Moyes or knocking Martinez but surely the additions of Barry, Lukaku, the other boy on loan that i could possibly attempt to spell and the emergence of Ross Barkley all this season is quite a significant change of personnel thats been instrumental to the season that you're having?
I'm not saying those players didn't help, and lets not forget McCarthy either as he certainly is worth a mention...would Moyes have brought those players in? probably not. But Martinez is a more positive manager, in most games I always felt that if we went behind we could still get a result, I never felt that way with Moyes, I don't know if you felt the same.
To be honest with you, Man Utd would probably have been better giving Moyes a limited transfer budget this season, as that is probably how he works best. Though I doubt the fans would have been happy about that.
That type of scenario only works to a certain level which is why 6th,7th, 8th place is where moyes has spent most of his career. It would be fine for certain clubs but not for a club that has spent 20 yrs dominating league football.