It's all flippin' complicated! A thought which has just occurred to me though. If the Warleggan's company are pushing the price of ore up to stop Carnmore, then surely that's only beneficial to the mine owners? Last night Poldark borrowed £1000 presumably to buy the ore. However he was outbid, even on his own ore, so he could pay back the £1000 (admittedly at an eye-watering interest rate ) and also made more money on his own ore? Or(e) am I completely misunderstanding everything?
The £1000 has to cover his general debts I think not just for buying the ore.
As a one-off, he would get a good price for the ore, but then with the Carnmore having to close through having no ore to smelt the other co owners (who bank with Warleggans) go bankrupt, Carnmore closes, and Poldark is back to square one of having to sell his ore to the smelting cartel - who are all in Warleggans back pocket - at below market value.
It's all flippin' complicated! A thought which has just occurred to me though. If the Warleggan's company are pushing the price of ore up to stop Carnmore, then surely that's only beneficial to the mine owners? Last night Poldark borrowed £1000 presumably to buy the ore. However he was outbid, even on his own ore, so he could pay back the £1000 (admittedly at an eye-watering interest rate ) and also made more money on his own ore? Or(e) am I completely misunderstanding everything?
No, you're right, the price of ore has gone up - but only for as long as Carnmore was in business. Now it has folded, the other smelting companies will resume their price-fixing business and the price will drop once more.
Wheal Leisure will have done well out of the temporary price rise, but not well enough to write off Ross's debts - the mine was still only just breaking even, it had been operating for about a year before it even struck copper never mind made a sale, and during that time it was running off the investment of its shareholders. Out of whatever profit is made, all shareholders will receive a dividend, the miners must be paid (and Ross pays a fair wage, which reduces his own profit), plus a mine is really expensive to run - equipment to supply, pumps to maintain, etc. So yes, the temporary price rise will have benefitted the mine - but nowhere near enough to pay off Ross's debts, still less give him capital to play with, which is why he's taken out another loan (at crippling interest) to do whatever it is he intends to do next.
ETA - The £1000 isn't to buy the ore - he can't do that, the auction is already over and the ore sold.
One thing I really missed in this adaptation that was in the book was that when Ross took out that loan, he set aside a portion of the money to loan on to one of the Carnmore shareholders who had been left bankrupt, hoping to keep the man out of debtor's prison. I found that touching, and was sorry not to see it here.
^^Ross did that in the book? That was touching. We saw the shareholder at Julia's funeral; it would have been lovely to see that. If anything it would've had made what Warleggan did to Ross - having him arrested - even more poignant.
ETA: I do love the moments when Warleggan is reflective over his actions. There are quiet moments that paint a more sympathetic picture of the man. It also makes him a rather interesting character Just when I want to punch him so badly it hurts, he becomes all solemn and reflective and I see different side to him. His uncle does my head in though.
No, you're right, the price of ore has gone up - but only for as long as Carnmore was in business. Now it has folded, the other smelting companies will resume their price-fixing business and the price will drop once more.
Thanks to you (and everyone else) for explaining the economics of it all. It's much clearer now!
One thing I really missed in this adaptation that was in the book was that when Ross took out that loan, he set aside a portion of the money to loan on to one of the Carnmore shareholders who had been left bankrupt, hoping to keep the man out of debtor's prison. I found that touching, and was sorry not to see it here.
I think that's often why it's a good idea to read the books too because adaptations leave out so much. The narrative in the books explains things - feelings etc - which either aren't put into an adaptation, or just don't translate very well in acting.
ETA: I do love the moments when Warleggan is reflective over his actions. There are quiet moments that paint a more sympathetic picture of the man. It also makes him a rather interesting character Just when I want to punch him so badly it hurts, he becomes all solemn and reflective and I see different side to him. His uncle does my head in though.
I feel the same, and I think the actor is playing the part really well. Subtle feelings flitting across his face.
The uncle has no redeeming features, but I suppose he's one generation closer to the blacksmith and perhaps remembers being much poorer. He's horrible though.
This is probably a silly thing to like but I really liked seeing the kids in the episodes regularly, especially Julia being with Demelza so much. So often on TV people have kids and then that's it they're barely ever seen ever again until they're needed occasionally to remind people that the kids exists it was nice to see Julia being toted around everywhere it seemed a lot more true to life.
I feel the same, and I think the actor is playing the part really well. Subtle feelings flitting across his face.
Yes, after his conversation on the beach where he sympathised with Ross (and Ross practically spat on the corpse of his cousin - I understand Ross was suffering and the cousin was a cheat, but it was still way harsh) he went up the driveway to Francis' place and I swear he looked for all the world like he was crying. Maybe my imagination, but at the very least he looked very distressed. And it made sense with the following scene - as someone as controlled as George would only say that to E under great emotion as it seems a totally futile declaration.
In other hands George would be a moustache-twirling cartoon (like the Uncle) but I really like this attempt at a deeper portrayal. Makes the drama more interesting.
This is probably a silly thing to like but I really liked seeing the kids in the episodes regularly, especially Julia being with Demelza so much. So often on TV people have kids and then that's it they're barely ever seen ever again until they're needed occasionally to remind people that the kids exists it was nice to see Julia being toted around everywhere it seemed a lot more true to life.
Yes, that's been a big plus. Although the ages of the kids has been a bit wonky - Geoffrey Charles in this episode looked younger than he should be (he should be about four/five at this point, but looked no older than three) and Jinny's baby last week looked the same age as Julia despite being a year older!
Oh, this episode finally confirmed which of Jinny's children exists in this adaptation: Kate, who in the books is her youngest. It's only taken...what, five episodes to find out whether her child was even a girl or a boy! If it had been Benjamin Ross that would at least have lent a bit of weight to the notion of there being rumours that Ross was the father.
I also loved hearing a bit of Cornish in Demelza's song at the beginning.
This adaptation hasn't been particularly kind toward Francis, but it has, to me at least, shown quite clearly why he feels the way he does - he has plenty of good reason for his jealousy and resentment. We saw how his father bullied him, so that he always felt inadequate - even on Charles's death bed, he was still running Francis down and comparing him unfavourably with his cousin, whose shadow Francis grew up in. That inferiority complex has been crippling for Francis. He also knows damn well he was Elizabeth's second choice, that if Ross hadn't gone off to war and been presumed dead she'd never have looked twice at him. So not only is Ross the son Francis's father wished he'd had, he's also the husband Francis's wife wishes she'd had. There was never much passion in their marriage and it died completely once Geoffrey Charles was born. So he feels second best to Ross in more ways than one. He sees Ross making a success of his business ventures (or at least appearing to) and forging a happy marriage with his kitchen maid, while the business Francis inherited goes down the toilet and his own marriage flounders. He's a weak man and his sense of inadequacy led to self-destructiveness. Just because he inherited a big house and got the girl Ross wanted first, doesn't mean he has a perfect life. He's extremely privileged compared with his tenants and miners, but that doesn't make him immune to stress, anxiety and depression - especially since he knows he has failed in the responsibilities that daunted him so when he inherited.
And George played him like a fiddle.
All very true. F's lack of self belief grows daily. His marriage was over really before it got started. Obviously Elizabeth is still in love with Ross.
And I wonder if George's envy of anybody around him - and total inability of any act of no-strings-attached altrusim - is also based on a deep seated inferiority complex. That he feels he has to own and control everybody must surely point to an innate fear of his own weaknesses.
I can see how cruel it was from Elizabeth's POV. But Ross was speaking from a place where he has lost his child because Demelza went to nurse Elizabeth and her family including her son who survived. It is possible to read that scene as Ross projecting his own anger at Elizabeth and in particular at a family who sees his wife as a piece of nothing (although Elizabeth has never felt like that toward Demelza). If it was cruel what Ross said to Elizabeth and how he said it, it is really nothing compared with the painful loss of a child.
Up thread someone said that in the book Elizabeth was still recovering to be of any help to Demelza when she became ill. So it was interesting that the producers decided to re-write that whole episode. In terms of how the "future" will be dealt there is another way to read that whole scene with Ross and Elizabeth. It was the only time Ross has been able to get at Elizabeth. Up till then he was able to tell Francis angrily in the pit concerning Elizabeth "not to rub it in his face", but he has never been able to direct his pain anger and loss at Elizabeth. It seethes with venom, yes, but it also conceals a truth about Ross's feelings: he may still love Elizabeth, but he remains powerless to do anything about it.
A very ineresting theory. A bit churlish for somebody like Ross to want to hurt her after so much has happened but yes, perhaps he still harbours a burning sense of injured pride. He must, though, sense that she still loves him. She keeps popping up, "I was just passing this way.."
On another note, Demelza is perfect for Ross. They both have a great heart and a desire to help others. I think he'd have been unhappy with E.
Another point about the mines and the smelting works is that the smelting works shareholders weren't necessarily all mine owners, so they had no copper to send for smelting, and other mine owners didn't necessarily know who the shareholders of the Carnmore Copper Company were, or that it even existed before that first auction even if they would have been able offer them their copper rather than send t to auction. The whole point of any auction is to get the best price.
As for the illness, there are several illness it could be because illnesses were described by symptoms then rather than being named:
Dr Choake describes it as malignant sore throat - diphtheria.
Dwight Enys refers to it as morbus strangulatorius, which is a life threatening infection of the cells of the mouth and throat giving a feeling of being strangled and a fever.
It's also been referred to as putrid fever (typhus) or malignant fever (yellow fever).
Really nasty then, whatever it was, long before the advent of anti-biotics.
A very ineresting theory. A bit churlish for somebody like Ross to want to hurt her after so much has happened but yes, perhaps he still harbours a burning sense of injured pride. He must, though, sense that she still loves him. She keeps popping up, "I was just passing this way.."
On another note, Demelza is perfect for Ross. They both have a great heart and a desire to help others. I think he'd have been unhappy with E.
And Elizabeth was very high maintenance - she wouldn't have mucked in baking bread, making pies, feeding animals, working in the fields etc like Demelza did!
Poor Ross would have found her a bit of a liability if he had married her. Probably doesn't stop him daydreaming, though....
And Elizabeth was very high maintenance - she wouldn't have mucked in baking bread, making pies, feeding animals, working in the fields etc like Demelza did!
Poor Ross would have found her a bit of a liability if he had married her. Probably doesn't stop him daydreaming, though....
She is certainly accustomed to a certain standard of living. But I sometimes wonder if this Elizabeth ( i.e this adapted Elizabeth as opposed to the Elizabeth in the novels) would have turned her nose up at living in more reduced circumstances. The point being that she would have Ross by her side, a man who is far more industrious than Francis and more 'get-up-and-go' about him. Also when Francis lost his inheritance, she was pretty defiant and determined not to let the event bring them down. What she would have done if George hadn't reduced their debt, I have no idea. Perhaps it's all show and you're right, she would've been a liability. But I'm only basing my opinion by this adaptation, and this confusion is only equalled by the mixed messages that comes off Elizabeth as a character. Apart from being a great love of Ross's (and having a mother who desired a good match for her daughter, not to mention the status and wealth that came with being Francis's wife), I really don't know what she is about. She's all wide-eyed and pretty and not much else for me.
I have really enjoyed watching this every Sunday. I love the actors and the lovely scenery but haven't seen many references to the beautiful music that has been the background to the series, it's beautiful and haunting and very fitting I think.
I have really enjoyed watching this every Sunday. I love the actors and the lovely scenery but haven't seen many references to the beautiful music that has been the background to the series, it's beautiful and haunting and very fitting I think.
Can we please not have references to the books that are borderline spoiler.
Many of us are watching this for the first time, and we're taking the story from the adaptation.
"You need to read the books". No I don't. I haven't the time to trudge through the serialized tomes thanks.
I think this adaptation is doing a better job than the first adaptation of showing just how trapped a woman like Elizabeth would have been at that time. The most important decision she could make in that time would be over whom she would marry but marrying without familial approval could lead to ostracism and marrying for love could lead to genteel poverty or destitution. She may not have just rejected Ross because of her fear of slumming it but because of more practical considerations for the future. How would they feed their children? How would they pay for doctors? If Ross died young, as people often did back then, how would she and any children make a living?
Failure to marry at all would have lead to a future as a dependent maiden aunt, with no life of her own, constantly expected to care and tend to other people and their needs. Once married a woman was stuck with her husband regardless. Someone on another site said 'Why doesn't Elizabeth just divorce Francis?' Well, legally she can't divorce him and, if she leaves him, he owns all her property and has sole rights over Geoffrey Francis. She has no way to earn her own living and would be considered too high-status even for a job as a governess or school teacher.
Given what is to happen to Elizabeth I see her as a victim of a society and legal system which gives her little option but to be dependent on, often unworthy, men, with her own wishes playing very little part in her own fate.
Failure to marry at all would have lead to a future as a dependent maiden aunt, with no life of her own, constantly expected to care and tend to other people and their needs.
And this was the life which Verity was expected to fulfill, but she rebelled. Good on her!
Once married a woman was stuck with her husband regardless. Someone on another site said 'Why doesn't Elizabeth just divorce Francis?' Well, legally she can't divorce him and, if she leaves him, he owns all her property and has sole rights over Geoffrey Francis. She has no way to earn her own living and would be considered too high-status even for a job as a governess or school teacher.
Given what is to happen to Elizabeth I see her as a victim of a society and legal system which gives her little option but to be dependent on, often unworthy, men, with her own wishes playing very little part in her own fate.
It's amazing how ignorant people can be of how it used to be in the past. Or perhaps they just think that it could be re-written to fit in with how things are today.
I'm always grateful for being a woman born now rather than in the past.
Under the Divorce Reform Act of 1857 she could have divorced him, but only for adultery. Either could divorce for that reason, but the person with whom adultery had been committed had to be named and might have to pay damages. Don't know whether going to a prostitute was considered adultery or not, but probably not.
Marriages could be annulled for non-consummation, but as Elizabeth had given birth, that could not be.
They could be judicially separated, but neither could re-marry. They could then divorce on various grounds after two years.
If either of them left the marital home, a court could order the restitution of conjugal rights - there being no rape in marriage until the 1970s.
The Divorce Act of 1857 did help the situation, but I believe Poldark is currently in the 1790's and at that time there was no realistic opportunity to dissolve a marriage.
Comments
The £1000 has to cover his general debts I think not just for buying the ore.
As a one-off, he would get a good price for the ore, but then with the Carnmore having to close through having no ore to smelt the other co owners (who bank with Warleggans) go bankrupt, Carnmore closes, and Poldark is back to square one of having to sell his ore to the smelting cartel - who are all in Warleggans back pocket - at below market value.
No wonder they're not best chums.... :-)
Wheal Leisure will have done well out of the temporary price rise, but not well enough to write off Ross's debts - the mine was still only just breaking even, it had been operating for about a year before it even struck copper never mind made a sale, and during that time it was running off the investment of its shareholders. Out of whatever profit is made, all shareholders will receive a dividend, the miners must be paid (and Ross pays a fair wage, which reduces his own profit), plus a mine is really expensive to run - equipment to supply, pumps to maintain, etc. So yes, the temporary price rise will have benefitted the mine - but nowhere near enough to pay off Ross's debts, still less give him capital to play with, which is why he's taken out another loan (at crippling interest) to do whatever it is he intends to do next.
ETA - The £1000 isn't to buy the ore - he can't do that, the auction is already over and the ore sold.
One thing I really missed in this adaptation that was in the book was that when Ross took out that loan, he set aside a portion of the money to loan on to one of the Carnmore shareholders who had been left bankrupt, hoping to keep the man out of debtor's prison. I found that touching, and was sorry not to see it here.
ETA: I do love the moments when Warleggan is reflective over his actions. There are quiet moments that paint a more sympathetic picture of the man. It also makes him a rather interesting character Just when I want to punch him so badly it hurts, he becomes all solemn and reflective and I see different side to him. His uncle does my head in though.
Thanks to you (and everyone else) for explaining the economics of it all. It's much clearer now!
I think that's often why it's a good idea to read the books too because adaptations leave out so much. The narrative in the books explains things - feelings etc - which either aren't put into an adaptation, or just don't translate very well in acting.
I feel the same, and I think the actor is playing the part really well. Subtle feelings flitting across his face.
The uncle has no redeeming features, but I suppose he's one generation closer to the blacksmith and perhaps remembers being much poorer. He's horrible though.
Yes, after his conversation on the beach where he sympathised with Ross (and Ross practically spat on the corpse of his cousin - I understand Ross was suffering and the cousin was a cheat, but it was still way harsh) he went up the driveway to Francis' place and I swear he looked for all the world like he was crying. Maybe my imagination, but at the very least he looked very distressed. And it made sense with the following scene - as someone as controlled as George would only say that to E under great emotion as it seems a totally futile declaration.
In other hands George would be a moustache-twirling cartoon (like the Uncle) but I really like this attempt at a deeper portrayal. Makes the drama more interesting.
Oh, this episode finally confirmed which of Jinny's children exists in this adaptation: Kate, who in the books is her youngest. It's only taken...what, five episodes to find out whether her child was even a girl or a boy! If it had been Benjamin Ross that would at least have lent a bit of weight to the notion of there being rumours that Ross was the father.
I also loved hearing a bit of Cornish in Demelza's song at the beginning.
And Ross's response - "Maybe the Patagonians were better fed than these miners".
All very true. F's lack of self belief grows daily. His marriage was over really before it got started. Obviously Elizabeth is still in love with Ross.
And I wonder if George's envy of anybody around him - and total inability of any act of no-strings-attached altrusim - is also based on a deep seated inferiority complex. That he feels he has to own and control everybody must surely point to an innate fear of his own weaknesses.
A very ineresting theory. A bit churlish for somebody like Ross to want to hurt her after so much has happened but yes, perhaps he still harbours a burning sense of injured pride. He must, though, sense that she still loves him. She keeps popping up, "I was just passing this way.."
On another note, Demelza is perfect for Ross. They both have a great heart and a desire to help others. I think he'd have been unhappy with E.
As for the illness, there are several illness it could be because illnesses were described by symptoms then rather than being named:
Dr Choake describes it as malignant sore throat - diphtheria.
Dwight Enys refers to it as morbus strangulatorius, which is a life threatening infection of the cells of the mouth and throat giving a feeling of being strangled and a fever.
It's also been referred to as putrid fever (typhus) or malignant fever (yellow fever).
Really nasty then, whatever it was, long before the advent of anti-biotics.
And Elizabeth was very high maintenance - she wouldn't have mucked in baking bread, making pies, feeding animals, working in the fields etc like Demelza did!
Poor Ross would have found her a bit of a liability if he had married her. Probably doesn't stop him daydreaming, though....
She is certainly accustomed to a certain standard of living. But I sometimes wonder if this Elizabeth ( i.e this adapted Elizabeth as opposed to the Elizabeth in the novels) would have turned her nose up at living in more reduced circumstances. The point being that she would have Ross by her side, a man who is far more industrious than Francis and more 'get-up-and-go' about him. Also when Francis lost his inheritance, she was pretty defiant and determined not to let the event bring them down. What she would have done if George hadn't reduced their debt, I have no idea. Perhaps it's all show and you're right, she would've been a liability. But I'm only basing my opinion by this adaptation, and this confusion is only equalled by the mixed messages that comes off Elizabeth as a character. Apart from being a great love of Ross's (and having a mother who desired a good match for her daughter, not to mention the status and wealth that came with being Francis's wife), I really don't know what she is about. She's all wide-eyed and pretty and not much else for me.
No, I'm talking about George.
I am guessing that Ross does not swing.
It was very emotional
Good posting. Well said.
Failure to marry at all would have lead to a future as a dependent maiden aunt, with no life of her own, constantly expected to care and tend to other people and their needs. Once married a woman was stuck with her husband regardless. Someone on another site said 'Why doesn't Elizabeth just divorce Francis?' Well, legally she can't divorce him and, if she leaves him, he owns all her property and has sole rights over Geoffrey Francis. She has no way to earn her own living and would be considered too high-status even for a job as a governess or school teacher.
Given what is to happen to Elizabeth I see her as a victim of a society and legal system which gives her little option but to be dependent on, often unworthy, men, with her own wishes playing very little part in her own fate.
And this was the life which Verity was expected to fulfill, but she rebelled. Good on her!
It's amazing how ignorant people can be of how it used to be in the past. Or perhaps they just think that it could be re-written to fit in with how things are today.
I'm always grateful for being a woman born now rather than in the past.
Marriages could be annulled for non-consummation, but as Elizabeth had given birth, that could not be.
They could be judicially separated, but neither could re-marry. They could then divorce on various grounds after two years.
If either of them left the marital home, a court could order the restitution of conjugal rights - there being no rape in marriage until the 1970s.
1990s, if talking about British law.