i said nothing like boo meltzer, just asked if you thought like that before or after reading his article.
was not aware of that susan komen stuff, not nice to see. more money should go towards finding a cure i agree
as for the LGBT stuff i wonde rif darren young would welcome a gimmick about his lifestyle?
Yeah, I made a post to Alexi saying something similar before I read the Meltzer article.
I don't see how WWE can do any LGBT stuff properly. I can just imagine them going to some shithole in South Carolina or something, running an angle where some heel bad mouths Darren Young and then the guy getting cheered by rednecks. Not good for him or for the company's reputation.
But I would be pretty sensitive to anything they do. Even like saying 'his lifestyle' is one of those wee things because his lifestyle is probably the same as any other wrestler i.e. being on the road all the time.
Awareness is BS. Everyone is aware of cancer. Donate money to an actual research centre that is trying to find a cure rather than some company trying to profit from the disease.
This
Susan G Komen are a nasty organisation and a great example of the kind of "charity" which, sadly, gives charities a bad name.
Yeah, I made a post to Alexi saying something similar before I read the Meltzer article.
I don't see how WWE can do any LGBT stuff properly. I can just imagine them going to some shithole in South Carolina or something, running an angle where some heel bad mouths Darren Young and then the guy getting cheered by rednecks. Not good for him or for the company's reputation.
But I would be pretty sensitive to anything they do. Even like saying 'his lifestyle' is one of those wee things because his lifestyle is probably the same as any other wrestler i.e. being on the road all the time.
no offence meant re lifestyle
i would like it if we were not in pg era if darren young was allowed to give his real personal retort to redneck fans, would be good tv.
but yeh i wonder if he would be a heel or face on tv if they pushed him as gay and proud? does make you think.
i would like it if we were not in pg era if darren young was allowed to give his real personal retort to redneck fans, would be good tv.
but yeh i wonder if he would be a heel or face on tv if they pushed him as gay and proud? does make you think.
Oh, none taken. Just meant it as an example of how careful they would have to be.
Him ripping in some rednecks might be funny and would probably get them some serious buzz in the media but I share your concerns about him being heel or face. Can they really make it a heel move for him just to be gay? They've done it in the past, but all the gay characters they've had in the past have been portrayed as freaks. WWE don't really let heels get proper heat any more either so it's unlikely that someone is gonna bad mouth him in a promo or anything. So it's hard to see what story they would tell.
Oh, none taken. Just meant it as an example of how careful they would have to be.
Him ripping in some rednecks might be funny and would probably get them some serious buzz in the media but I share your concerns about him being heel or face. Can they really make it a heel move for him just to be gay? They've done it in the past, but all the gay characters they've had in the past have been portrayed as freaks. WWE don't really let heels get proper heat any more either so it's unlikely that someone is gonna bad mouth him in a promo or anything. So it's hard to see what story they would tell.
the hassan booking is still a low point for them, maybe they want to go 1 step further?
i think best thing would be maybe a diva asks him out backstage and hes like im gay and they are like cool and then its never made into storyline but the universe know about him and if any one out there can take motiviation from him being a wwe wrestler then thats a good thing.
the hassan booking is still a low point for them, maybe they want to go 1 step further?
i think best thing would be maybe a diva asks him out backstage and hes like im gay and they are like cool and then its never made into storyline but the universe know about him and if any one out there can take motiviation from him being a wwe wrestler then thats a good thing.
Oh God, that Hassan thing was terrible. He began as someone saying that he suffered from racism because people assumed he was a terrorist just for being a Muslim and this somehow made him a heel! Then they turned him into an ACTUAL TERRORIST. I don't know if this reflects worse on WWE or their audience.
I see Eva Marie had her first match back at NXT against Cassie. Link is below if you want to see. She has improved but lets be honest, she could only improve as before she was awful. For me she has to RUN at the ropes, as right now she is just walking to the ropes and it looks silly.
Oh God, that Hassan thing was terrible. He began as someone saying that he suffered from racism because people assumed he was a terrorist just for being a Muslim and this somehow made him a heel! Then they turned him into an ACTUAL TERRORIST. I don't know if this reflects worse on WWE or their audience.
to be fair the first promo he did where he said he was a muslim got booed right away
In theory WWE were actually telling quite a sophisticated story with Hassan.
Young Muslim man encounters institutional racism post-9/11 and attempts to speak out about it. These attempts are not well received and makes him increasingly angry with America which pushes him toward anti-American rhetoric which brings him into the orbit of terrorism...
I wouldn't at all suggest they did a good job at telling that story and there's certainly a point to be made that WWE is the wrong venue for that story but there was something there.
The only way to know is by asking Darren Young. I don't think he would go for it.
I'm going to assume I'm happy I didn't see this before you apparently edited it. Anyway...
I think you might be wrong on this. Since coming out Darren Young has done a lot of work with various gay charities, campaigns and groups (especially within schools aimed at reducing homophobic bullying). I suspect he might be very willing to embrace his sexuality on screen. Its a hugely important thing.
In theory WWE were actually telling quite a sophisticated story with Hassan.
Young Muslim man encounters institutional racism post-9/11 and attempts to speak out about it. These attempts are not well received and makes him increasingly angry with America which pushes him toward anti-American rhetoric which brings him into the orbit of terrorism...
I wouldn't at all suggest they did a good job at telling that story and there's certainly a point to be made that WWE is the wrong venue for that story but there was something there.
BIB - nail. on. head.
And it's exactly the same with any attempt to do an LGBT storyline, a racism storyline, an abortion storyline, a drug abuse storyline or whatever other serious ideas there might be out there. WWE is a PANTOMIME. It is, always has been, and always will be, filled with pantomime villains, pantomime heroes/heroins and pantomime storylines. In the year 2015 and one of the main villains is a Russian (or Bulgarian) who hates America. Heat is still drawn by talking in a foreign language.
Have we entered a time warp? No; these are just the limitations of the wrestling business. When WWE tries to deal with more serious issues, it at best comes across as a particularly bizarre episode of Jerry Springer (see: The Attitude Era), and at worst insensitive and crass.
I absolutely do not buy the notion that WWE can't do gay characters because its pantomime.
Because the gay characters that feature in pantomime are well drawn, forward-thinking and not anchronistic at all?
Stop acting as though wrestling is Breaking Bad. It has more in common with The X-Factor. It's a light entertainment show and just cannot handle serious issues with any degree of decorum or subtlety.
Anyone catch Eva Marie match last night on nxt I know she gets rough time on here but I thought she did ok. She needs more speed to her offense especially her finisher.
Anyone catch Eva Marie match last night on nxt I know she gets rough time on here but I thought she did ok. She needs more speed to her offense especially her finisher.
Yep posted the link above to her match. Agree with you, her speed is her main downfall right now. She walks to the ropes and it looks so stupid. Bit more work and she will get it.
Because the gay characters that feature in pantomime are well drawn, forward-thinking and not anchronistic at all?
Stop acting as though wrestling is Breaking Bad. It has more in common with The X-Factor. It's a light entertainment show and just cannot handle serious issues with any degree of decorum or subtlety.
Who is arguing that wrestling is Breaking Bad? How about you stop arguing against extreme varients of a point no one is making (except maybe hazy).
Also I'd point out that light entertainment shows (like The X Factor) are perfectly capable of dealing with homosexuality and have several times at this point so you're somewhat shooting yourself in the foot there.
Yep posted the link above to her match. Agree with you, her speed is her main downfall right now. She walks to the ropes and it looks so stupid. Bit more work and she will get it.
Kelly Kelly was a champion without ever hitting the ropes so that isn't unique to Eva. AJ lee was awful at rope running sometimes too
Who is arguing that wrestling is Breaking Bad? How about you stop arguing against extreme varients of a point no one is making (except maybe hazy).
Also I'd point out that light entertainment shows (like The X Factor) are perfectly capable of dealing with homosexuality and have several times at this point so you're somewhat shooting yourself in the foot there.
It's of course an extreme example, but you are ascribing aesthetic values to the product that don't exist in it because they can't exist in it.
This notion that Darren Young will come out, talk about his sexuality and be greeted by a considerate and moderate response by the ever-discerning live audience is, put simply, nonsense. The X-Factor audience cannot be compared with the audience who goes to a live wrestling event. WWE could go in several directions:
- Darren Young's character as the face, facing up against the homophobic bullies of the locker-room: Probably the most morally acceptable storyline, but crossing dangerous territory by ascribing homophobic behaviour to other characters. Also reliant on the good grace of WWE's paying audiences to accept this
- Darren Young's character as a moany and whiney heel (ala Muhammad Hassan) - This would fail for the same reasons the Hassan angle did
Do you really need a reminder of what happened the last time WWE did a gay angle?
The world and attitudes have changed a lot in 13 years. And one would assume that WWE wouldn't try and play this off for cheap comedy in 2015.
Hopefully not. But they sure as hell couldn't play it off as drama.
I do find it amusing that when Billy Corgan joined the TNA creative team and said similar things about wrestling storylines, he was largely derided for it. Yet here we have a few people saying WWE should do it! You couldn't make it up.
Hopefully not. But they sure as hell couldn't play it off as drama.
I do find it amusing that when Billy Corgan joined the TNA creative team and said similar things about wrestling storylines, he was largely derided for it. Yet here we have a few people saying WWE should do it! You couldn't make it up.
I don't see why you seem to think that all wrestling fans are some sort of hive mind though. Was it the same people criticising Corgan that are advocating WWE doing the same?
I understand your concerns more than anyone, I assure you. But I don't think it's necessarily to do with the medium of the business itself as much as it is with the attitudes of those who run it. I don't see why aiming to tell more sophisticated, nuanced and serious stories is something that WWE shouldn't be aiming to do in the long term. I don't see why having a more genuinely diverse roster that is presented properly is something they shouldn't aim to do either. If they want to actually be relevant beyond the seemingly shrinking wrestling bubble, then they have to do something. And if Stephanie wants to keep playing her modern feminist businesswoman gimmick, then they may head that way in the next ten years or so.
Comments
Yeah, I made a post to Alexi saying something similar before I read the Meltzer article.
I don't see how WWE can do any LGBT stuff properly. I can just imagine them going to some shithole in South Carolina or something, running an angle where some heel bad mouths Darren Young and then the guy getting cheered by rednecks. Not good for him or for the company's reputation.
But I would be pretty sensitive to anything they do. Even like saying 'his lifestyle' is one of those wee things because his lifestyle is probably the same as any other wrestler i.e. being on the road all the time.
This
Susan G Komen are a nasty organisation and a great example of the kind of "charity" which, sadly, gives charities a bad name.
no offence meant re lifestyle
i would like it if we were not in pg era if darren young was allowed to give his real personal retort to redneck fans, would be good tv.
but yeh i wonder if he would be a heel or face on tv if they pushed him as gay and proud? does make you think.
Oh, none taken. Just meant it as an example of how careful they would have to be.
Him ripping in some rednecks might be funny and would probably get them some serious buzz in the media but I share your concerns about him being heel or face. Can they really make it a heel move for him just to be gay? They've done it in the past, but all the gay characters they've had in the past have been portrayed as freaks. WWE don't really let heels get proper heat any more either so it's unlikely that someone is gonna bad mouth him in a promo or anything. So it's hard to see what story they would tell.
the hassan booking is still a low point for them, maybe they want to go 1 step further?
i think best thing would be maybe a diva asks him out backstage and hes like im gay and they are like cool and then its never made into storyline but the universe know about him and if any one out there can take motiviation from him being a wwe wrestler then thats a good thing.
That was one hell of an edit.
Oh God, that Hassan thing was terrible. He began as someone saying that he suffered from racism because people assumed he was a terrorist just for being a Muslim and this somehow made him a heel! Then they turned him into an ACTUAL TERRORIST. I don't know if this reflects worse on WWE or their audience.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Az3HQcreGo
to be fair the first promo he did where he said he was a muslim got booed right away
world we live in
Young Muslim man encounters institutional racism post-9/11 and attempts to speak out about it. These attempts are not well received and makes him increasingly angry with America which pushes him toward anti-American rhetoric which brings him into the orbit of terrorism...
I wouldn't at all suggest they did a good job at telling that story and there's certainly a point to be made that WWE is the wrong venue for that story but there was something there.
I think you might be wrong on this. Since coming out Darren Young has done a lot of work with various gay charities, campaigns and groups (especially within schools aimed at reducing homophobic bullying). I suspect he might be very willing to embrace his sexuality on screen. Its a hugely important thing.
BIB - nail. on. head.
And it's exactly the same with any attempt to do an LGBT storyline, a racism storyline, an abortion storyline, a drug abuse storyline or whatever other serious ideas there might be out there. WWE is a PANTOMIME. It is, always has been, and always will be, filled with pantomime villains, pantomime heroes/heroins and pantomime storylines. In the year 2015 and one of the main villains is a Russian (or Bulgarian) who hates America. Heat is still drawn by talking in a foreign language.
Have we entered a time warp? No; these are just the limitations of the wrestling business. When WWE tries to deal with more serious issues, it at best comes across as a particularly bizarre episode of Jerry Springer (see: The Attitude Era), and at worst insensitive and crass.
Because the gay characters that feature in pantomime are well drawn, forward-thinking and not anchronistic at all?
Stop acting as though wrestling is Breaking Bad. It has more in common with The X-Factor. It's a light entertainment show and just cannot handle serious issues with any degree of decorum or subtlety.
Yep posted the link above to her match. Agree with you, her speed is her main downfall right now. She walks to the ropes and it looks so stupid. Bit more work and she will get it.
Better leave that sort of stuff to EastEnders.
Also I'd point out that light entertainment shows (like The X Factor) are perfectly capable of dealing with homosexuality and have several times at this point so you're somewhat shooting yourself in the foot there.
Kelly Kelly was a champion without ever hitting the ropes so that isn't unique to Eva. AJ lee was awful at rope running sometimes too
It's of course an extreme example, but you are ascribing aesthetic values to the product that don't exist in it because they can't exist in it.
This notion that Darren Young will come out, talk about his sexuality and be greeted by a considerate and moderate response by the ever-discerning live audience is, put simply, nonsense. The X-Factor audience cannot be compared with the audience who goes to a live wrestling event. WWE could go in several directions:
- Darren Young's character as the face, facing up against the homophobic bullies of the locker-room: Probably the most morally acceptable storyline, but crossing dangerous territory by ascribing homophobic behaviour to other characters. Also reliant on the good grace of WWE's paying audiences to accept this
- Darren Young's character as a moany and whiney heel (ala Muhammad Hassan) - This would fail for the same reasons the Hassan angle did
Do you really need a reminder of what happened the last time WWE did a gay angle?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKiAFepJNi4
No, it's best to keep WWE storylines simple rather than encroaching on territory they can't hope to do justice to.
Hopefully not. But they sure as hell couldn't play it off as drama.
I do find it amusing that when Billy Corgan joined the TNA creative team and said similar things about wrestling storylines, he was largely derided for it. Yet here we have a few people saying WWE should do it! You couldn't make it up.
ironically the same people who say stuff like "that was a good raw" every week in the current era mind you
low standards would help right now i guess.
I don't see why you seem to think that all wrestling fans are some sort of hive mind though. Was it the same people criticising Corgan that are advocating WWE doing the same?
I understand your concerns more than anyone, I assure you. But I don't think it's necessarily to do with the medium of the business itself as much as it is with the attitudes of those who run it. I don't see why aiming to tell more sophisticated, nuanced and serious stories is something that WWE shouldn't be aiming to do in the long term. I don't see why having a more genuinely diverse roster that is presented properly is something they shouldn't aim to do either. If they want to actually be relevant beyond the seemingly shrinking wrestling bubble, then they have to do something. And if Stephanie wants to keep playing her modern feminist businesswoman gimmick, then they may head that way in the next ten years or so.