His best game ever was probably in the CL Final win so for that I think he deserves a bit of respect. Has also contributed to numerous trophies.
However, I agree his time has run but he still has two years left unless Chelsea want to pay that up which I somehow doubt they will.
His best game ever was probably in the CL Final win so for that I think he deserves a bit of respect. Has also contributed to numerous trophies.
However, I agree his time has run but he still has two years left unless Chelsea want to pay that up which I somehow doubt they will.
Yes, as a backs-to-the-wall defender he was great. But there were some unlikely heroes in that game, even the much maligned BosIngwa rose to the occasion.
But do we really need a player who's main strengths are so limited ? Hopefully we're not going to find ourselves in situations where we are being so comprehensively outplayed too often ?
I actually think he's probably a better player than we've seen at Chelsea. We tried to turn him into something he wasn't, a kind of replacement for Makelele. Playing further foward for the Nigerian national side he looks a different player, but of course that has generally been against weaker opposition.
Our transfer market dealings are doing my head in. Buying Filipe Luis for 17million last year then selling him for a loss a year later when we already had Ryan Bertrand and Patrick van Aanholt as back up. Now we're looking at some £17million 22 year old I've never heard of from german football when we have Ake and Aina as cover. I can barely get my head round having a 3rd choice striker in Falcao on 140k a week when we have Bamford, Solanke and Brown. Even the pursuit of John Stones seems another case of us not looking at what we have before spunking a load of money for no reason. Christensen, Omeruo are a similar age and already paid for, Omeruo is a full international.
Saying all that, it's not my money and really looking forward to defending the title. Just frustrates me that we're so wasteful.
Our transfer market dealings are doing my head in. Buying Filipe Luis for 17million last year then selling him for a loss a year later when we already had Ryan Bertrand and Patrick van Aanholt as back up. Now we're looking at some £17million 22 year old I've never heard of from german football when we have Ake and Aina as cover. I can barely get my head round having a 3rd choice striker in Falcao on 140k a week when we have Bamford, Solanke and Brown. Even the pursuit of John Stones seems another case of us not looking at what we have before spunking a load of money for no reason. Christensen, Omeruo are a similar age and already paid for, Omeruo is a full international.
Saying all that, it's not my money and really looking forward to defending the title. Just frustrates me that we're so wasteful.
Just because someone is 3rd choice or "backup" that doesn't mean they don't have to be at a certain standard.
Bamford is just about good enough to be 1st choice (I would say 2nd choice) at a team that will more then likely be relegated this season and Solanke and Brown are not even near that standard. Even if they paid us 190k per week to be 3rd choice paying 140k to Falcao makes more sense.
Stones is streets and street ahead of Christensen and Omerou being a full international in a team that would prob struggle to beat our under 21's is not really saying anything.
Luis would still would have been with us this season if was anyone else who came in with a offer for him and he is a million miles ahead of Bertrand and a different universe to Vanaanolt.
Ake might be ready for a 3rd or 4th choice place (and its a big if) if we can get someone in who is ready to be 3rd or 2nd choice place then it would be worth getting someone in until he is ready, A 22 year old should keep his value so when Ake is ready we wont lose too much money
Stones has barely broken into the Everton first XI and is riding high on being English. Next season might be big for him at Everton if he stays but he has done absolutely nothing to merit a £30million price tag. If we bought him now he would be behind Terry, Cahill and Zouma so why bother. If he manages to establish himself this season at Everton he might be worth the cash, but at the moment no way.
Ake might be ready for a 3rd or 4th choice place (and its a big if) if we can get someone in who is ready to be 3rd or 2nd choice place then it would be worth getting someone in until he is ready, A 22 year old should keep his value so when Ake is ready we wont lose too much money
You said a similar thing about Stones and Kalas last week, but don't kid yourself. If Stones and Rahman are brought in at considerable expense then we can forget Kalas and Ake ever being given a proper opportunity to stake a place in the squad, even in a year or two when they'd supposedly be more ready for it. They'll be the ones getting moved on, not the expensive signings. Neither Kalas or Ake have looked out of their depth when they have been afforded a rare appearance, which is more than can be said for the much more experienced Cuadrado!
Stones has barely broken into the Everton first XI and is riding high on being English. Next season might be big for him at Everton if he stays but he has done absolutely nothing to merit a £30million price tag. If we bought him now he would be behind Terry, Cahill and Zouma so why bother. If he manages to establish himself this season at Everton he might be worth the cash, but at the moment no way.
Barely breaking in to Evertons first XI is leaps ahead of anything we have at the moment. If transfer fees was based on a set formula then I would agree he has not done anything to warrant a fee like that but they are just random numbers plucked out of the air. We need someone of a certain level to be behind JT,Gary and Zouma. JT is getting to the age where a injury that should mean you miss a week ends up meaning you miss a month and then we only have Zouma and Cahill and at our level that is not going to cut it. Having someone who is good enough for our first team in that role would be a waste of time same as having some youngster who is not ready. We need someone in between those two levels and Stone is as good a choice as anyone
You said a similar thing about Stones and Kalas last week, but don't kid yourself. If Stones and Rahman are brought in at considerable expense then we can forget Kalas and Ake ever being given a proper opportunity to stake a place in the squad, even in a year or two when they'd supposedly be more ready for it. They'll be the ones getting moved on, not the expensive signings. Neither Kalas or Ake have looked out of their depth when they have been afforded a rare appearance, which is more than can be said for the much more experienced Cuadrado!
As long as the player who stays is performing it don't matter who is moved on. If Stone and Rahman are bought in and perform we win if they don't and we ship them out and one of the youth team take their place we still win. You have to play the percentage game and at the level we are at the percentage numbers might be small but they are the difference between finishing 1st and finishing 4th (more so this season as I think the difference between the two places will be single figures).
As long as the player who stays is performing it don't matter who is moved on. If Stone and Rahman are bought in and perform we win if they don't and we ship them out and one of the youth team take their place we still win. You have to play the percentage game and at the level we are at the percentage numbers might be small but they are the difference between finishing 1st and finishing 4th (more so this season as I think the difference between the two places will be single figures).
I still think a combined cost of more than £50m (if we buy Stones at the figure Everton appear to want) for Rahman and Stones is excessive. For that sort of money you would normally expect (forgetting the Cuadrado experience) players who are ready to step straight into the team immediately if required. I'm not sure we'd be trusting either of those two against top class opposition, not just yet anyway.
But if they prove to be as good as Azpilicueta and Zouma, I won't be complaining. But it's worth pointing out that Dave and Happy only cost us £19m combined.
As long as the player who stays is performing it don't matter who is moved on. If Stone and Rahman are bought in and perform we win if they don't and we ship them out and one of the youth team take their place we still win. You have to play the percentage game and at the level we are at the percentage numbers might be small but they are the difference between finishing 1st and finishing 4th (more so this season as I think the difference between the two places will be single figures).
It does matter who is moved on if we've spent around £50m on a couple of players when we might not have needed to do so if we'd had a proper look at what we already have.
You realise what you've been saying lately is contradictory, right? One moment you're saying that we have to stop throwing money around all the time and look to work with and improve what we have, then the next you're all for spending over-inflated fees on the likes of Stones.
It does matter who is moved on if we've spent around £50m on a couple of players when we might not have needed to do so if we'd had a proper look at what we already have.
You realise what you've been saying lately is contradictory, right? One moment you're saying that we have to stop throwing money around all the time and look to work with and improve what we have, then the next you're all for spending over-inflated fees on the likes of Stones.
We don't have the luxury of having time to look at players and seeing what they might do. Never said we should stop chucking money around but it has to be more sensible for example spending 49m on Sterling or even more on Pogba makes no sense.
Yes we need to improve what we have BUT at the same time what we have has to be at a certain level first and non of our youth are at the level yet, Stones is not at that level yet neither but he is ahead of the players we do have.
Our youth players are just not good enough at the moment they lack competitive game time. We cannot afford to have players who don't have league experience (and am not talking about a couple of games where they come on as a sub or games after we have won the league) some need to be loaned out to gain experience and some need to spend more time with the squad to see what it takes to be even a fringe player at Chelsea
We don't have the luxury of having time to look at players and seeing what they might do. Never said we should stop chucking money around but it has to be more sensible for example spending 49m on Sterling or even more on Pogba makes no sense.
Yes we need to improve what we have BUT at the same time what we have has to be at a certain level first and non of our youth are at the level yet, Stones is not at that level yet neither but he is ahead of the players we do have.
Our youth players are just not good enough at the moment they lack competitive game time. We cannot afford to have players who don't have league experience (and am not talking about a couple of games where they come on as a sub or games after we have won the league) some need to be loaned out to gain experience and some need to spend more time with the squad to see what it takes to be even a fringe player at Chelsea
It's a good thing Vialli and Ranieri didn't share your view on things when they gave John Terry an opportunity, otherwise he would have been deemed not good enough due to a lack of competitive playing time and never had a look-in either.
Stones is one of those players that you buy now and worry about the fee later purely because of what he could become.
If he develops as he should he is your defensive leader sorted for the next decade. Thats tough to put a price on. Also if you dont sign him someone else will.
Of course he may not work out but thats the chance you take.
Stones is one of those players that you buy now and worry about the fee later purely because of what he could become.
If he develops as he should he is your defensive leader sorted for the next decade. Thats tough to put a price on. Also if you dont sign him someone else will.
Of course he may not work out but thats the chance you take.
If we forget the fee for a moment then Stones probably wouldn't be a bad addition to the squad but the way I see it is that we already have Zouma who has the potential for what you're saying.
In a time when we appear to be looking to tighten our belts more in view of a stadium redevelopment on the horizon, we have other positions in the team that are in more need of addressing.
I'd forgotten all about Kalas. He performed brilliantly at Anfield and seems to have been discarded as he didn't cost us a trillion pounds. What have I missed about Stones, he's young, he's English, his name is John like our captain and they want more for him than we got for Lukaku.
People were talking about 50 million for Ross Barkley last season and are now glad that never happened. Christensen has got a full Danish cap recently and everyone speaks very highly of him. Omeruo played in the world cup last year in a team that got out of their group and has been a first XI player for them since he was 19. Stones was rubbish in the U21 matches I watched and is not a guaranteed starter for club or country. I don't think he's significantly better than Omeruo or Christensen, he's had playing time as he only had Distin to shift rather than John Terry or Gary Cahill.
We're in danger of assembling amazing youth squads and then seeing them move on for nothing as they never get a chance with us. If someone has decided the players aren't good enough we should move them on as we're wasting their time and our money.
Stones is one of those players that you buy now and worry about the fee later purely because of what he could become.
If he develops as he should he is your defensive leader sorted for the next decade. Thats tough to put a price on. Also if you dont sign him someone else will.
Of course he may not work out but thats the chance you take.
Everton have taken the chance on him. He cost them £3million and needs to do more to earn a move up. If someone else buys him in the meantime I'd be okay with that.
It's a good thing Vialli and Ranieri didn't share your view on things when they gave John Terry an opportunity, otherwise he would have been deemed not good enough due to a lack of competitive playing time and never had a look-in either.
But he was good enough for where we was at the time. Even with lack of playing time etc. We are totally different club in a totally different league in a totally different sport then those days.
We are now a team that is expected to win the title ever season and win champions leagues.
What we need to do is not try and try and recreate JT's story but recreate Matic's story but without the sale and buy back.
Now if we had a B team in the lower leagues we could have do it that way but we have not so we have to do it via loans etc.
Chelsea's 3rd and 4th choices should walk into most teams in the premiership without any trouble. That's where our players need to be. Even those who never get a game need to be at a higher level or at the same level as most players in the league.
If you are taking a players place in the team due to injury etc then you need to at least be within a stones throw of the player place you are taking level.
But he was good enough for where we was at the time. Even with lack of playing time etc. We are totally different club in a totally different league in a totally different sport then those days.
We are now a team that is expected to win the title ever season and win champions leagues.
What we need to do is not try and try and recreate JT's story but recreate Matic's story but without the sale and buy back.
Now if we had a B team in the lower leagues we could have do it that way but we have not so we have to do it via loans etc.
Chelsea's 3rd and 4th choices should walk into most teams in the premiership without any trouble. That's where our players need to be. Even those who never get a game need to be at a higher level or at the same level as most players in the league.
If you are taking a players place in the team due to injury etc then you need to at least be within a stones throw of the player place you are taking level.
I absolutely agree with you there. But I'd argue that Stones doesn't fall into that category of player...yet. Yes, I know he's already picked up a few England caps, but any promising young English player appears to get those by default these days.
I've watched him a few times and don't deny that he looks very promising. But he's got a long way to go to live up to all the hype.
We heard the same about Phil Jones, Fergie even said that he would become the greatest United player ever ! Jones has remained a decent player, but nothing more. He now has to fight Smalling and Evans for a place, and I don't think we'd want any of those three.
I'm not against taking a calculated risk on a promising young player, but if we go to Everton's apparent asking price of around £35m, it just doesn't represent value for money.
I absolutely agree with you there. But I'd argue that Stones doesn't fall into that category of player...yet. Yes, I know he's already picked up a few England caps, but any promising young English player appears to get those by default these days.
I've watched him a few times and don't deny that he looks very promising. But he's got a long way to go to live up to all the hype.
We heard the same about Phil Jones, Fergie even said that he would become the greatest United player ever ! Jones has remained a decent player, but nothing more. He now has to fight Smalling and Evans for a place, and I don't think we'd want any of those three.
I'm not against taking a calculated risk on a promising young player, but if we go to Everton's apparent asking price of around £35m, it just doesn't represent value for money.
Spot on Richmond. We'd be taking a punt on Stones and if we're spending around £35m on a centre-back if should be someone that's top drawer now, not one that just has the potential to be.
Not a bad game,. I watched it in a pub, there didn't seem to be a great deal of interest to be honest. Disappointed with the result..obviously. But I thought we looked the better team throughout, and going foward into the real season's games that's probably more important than the result.
Willian was impressive in my opinion, and it's a pity our best chances in the first half fell to Ramires. Arsenal have won the bragging rights for this game, but I'd prefer to look at the overall performance and we still look the best bet over 38 games.
Comments
However, I agree his time has run but he still has two years left unless Chelsea want to pay that up which I somehow doubt they will.
Yes, as a backs-to-the-wall defender he was great. But there were some unlikely heroes in that game, even the much maligned BosIngwa rose to the occasion.
But do we really need a player who's main strengths are so limited ? Hopefully we're not going to find ourselves in situations where we are being so comprehensively outplayed too often ?
I actually think he's probably a better player than we've seen at Chelsea. We tried to turn him into something he wasn't, a kind of replacement for Makelele. Playing further foward for the Nigerian national side he looks a different player, but of course that has generally been against weaker opposition.
Saying all that, it's not my money and really looking forward to defending the title. Just frustrates me that we're so wasteful.
Check out Rodgers and lvg
Just because someone is 3rd choice or "backup" that doesn't mean they don't have to be at a certain standard.
Bamford is just about good enough to be 1st choice (I would say 2nd choice) at a team that will more then likely be relegated this season and Solanke and Brown are not even near that standard. Even if they paid us 190k per week to be 3rd choice paying 140k to Falcao makes more sense.
Stones is streets and street ahead of Christensen and Omerou being a full international in a team that would prob struggle to beat our under 21's is not really saying anything.
Luis would still would have been with us this season if was anyone else who came in with a offer for him and he is a million miles ahead of Bertrand and a different universe to Vanaanolt.
Ake might be ready for a 3rd or 4th choice place (and its a big if) if we can get someone in who is ready to be 3rd or 2nd choice place then it would be worth getting someone in until he is ready, A 22 year old should keep his value so when Ake is ready we wont lose too much money
You said a similar thing about Stones and Kalas last week, but don't kid yourself. If Stones and Rahman are brought in at considerable expense then we can forget Kalas and Ake ever being given a proper opportunity to stake a place in the squad, even in a year or two when they'd supposedly be more ready for it. They'll be the ones getting moved on, not the expensive signings. Neither Kalas or Ake have looked out of their depth when they have been afforded a rare appearance, which is more than can be said for the much more experienced Cuadrado!
Barely breaking in to Evertons first XI is leaps ahead of anything we have at the moment. If transfer fees was based on a set formula then I would agree he has not done anything to warrant a fee like that but they are just random numbers plucked out of the air. We need someone of a certain level to be behind JT,Gary and Zouma. JT is getting to the age where a injury that should mean you miss a week ends up meaning you miss a month and then we only have Zouma and Cahill and at our level that is not going to cut it. Having someone who is good enough for our first team in that role would be a waste of time same as having some youngster who is not ready. We need someone in between those two levels and Stone is as good a choice as anyone
As long as the player who stays is performing it don't matter who is moved on. If Stone and Rahman are bought in and perform we win if they don't and we ship them out and one of the youth team take their place we still win. You have to play the percentage game and at the level we are at the percentage numbers might be small but they are the difference between finishing 1st and finishing 4th (more so this season as I think the difference between the two places will be single figures).
I still think a combined cost of more than £50m (if we buy Stones at the figure Everton appear to want) for Rahman and Stones is excessive. For that sort of money you would normally expect (forgetting the Cuadrado experience) players who are ready to step straight into the team immediately if required. I'm not sure we'd be trusting either of those two against top class opposition, not just yet anyway.
But if they prove to be as good as Azpilicueta and Zouma, I won't be complaining. But it's worth pointing out that Dave and Happy only cost us £19m combined.
It does matter who is moved on if we've spent around £50m on a couple of players when we might not have needed to do so if we'd had a proper look at what we already have.
You realise what you've been saying lately is contradictory, right? One moment you're saying that we have to stop throwing money around all the time and look to work with and improve what we have, then the next you're all for spending over-inflated fees on the likes of Stones.
We don't have the luxury of having time to look at players and seeing what they might do. Never said we should stop chucking money around but it has to be more sensible for example spending 49m on Sterling or even more on Pogba makes no sense.
Yes we need to improve what we have BUT at the same time what we have has to be at a certain level first and non of our youth are at the level yet, Stones is not at that level yet neither but he is ahead of the players we do have.
Our youth players are just not good enough at the moment they lack competitive game time. We cannot afford to have players who don't have league experience (and am not talking about a couple of games where they come on as a sub or games after we have won the league) some need to be loaned out to gain experience and some need to spend more time with the squad to see what it takes to be even a fringe player at Chelsea
It's a good thing Vialli and Ranieri didn't share your view on things when they gave John Terry an opportunity, otherwise he would have been deemed not good enough due to a lack of competitive playing time and never had a look-in either.
If he develops as he should he is your defensive leader sorted for the next decade. Thats tough to put a price on. Also if you dont sign him someone else will.
Of course he may not work out but thats the chance you take.
If we forget the fee for a moment then Stones probably wouldn't be a bad addition to the squad but the way I see it is that we already have Zouma who has the potential for what you're saying.
In a time when we appear to be looking to tighten our belts more in view of a stadium redevelopment on the horizon, we have other positions in the team that are in more need of addressing.
People were talking about 50 million for Ross Barkley last season and are now glad that never happened. Christensen has got a full Danish cap recently and everyone speaks very highly of him. Omeruo played in the world cup last year in a team that got out of their group and has been a first XI player for them since he was 19. Stones was rubbish in the U21 matches I watched and is not a guaranteed starter for club or country. I don't think he's significantly better than Omeruo or Christensen, he's had playing time as he only had Distin to shift rather than John Terry or Gary Cahill.
We're in danger of assembling amazing youth squads and then seeing them move on for nothing as they never get a chance with us. If someone has decided the players aren't good enough we should move them on as we're wasting their time and our money.
Everton have taken the chance on him. He cost them £3million and needs to do more to earn a move up. If someone else buys him in the meantime I'd be okay with that.
But he was good enough for where we was at the time. Even with lack of playing time etc. We are totally different club in a totally different league in a totally different sport then those days.
We are now a team that is expected to win the title ever season and win champions leagues.
What we need to do is not try and try and recreate JT's story but recreate Matic's story but without the sale and buy back.
Now if we had a B team in the lower leagues we could have do it that way but we have not so we have to do it via loans etc.
Chelsea's 3rd and 4th choices should walk into most teams in the premiership without any trouble. That's where our players need to be. Even those who never get a game need to be at a higher level or at the same level as most players in the league.
If you are taking a players place in the team due to injury etc then you need to at least be within a stones throw of the player place you are taking level.
I absolutely agree with you there. But I'd argue that Stones doesn't fall into that category of player...yet. Yes, I know he's already picked up a few England caps, but any promising young English player appears to get those by default these days.
I've watched him a few times and don't deny that he looks very promising. But he's got a long way to go to live up to all the hype.
We heard the same about Phil Jones, Fergie even said that he would become the greatest United player ever ! Jones has remained a decent player, but nothing more. He now has to fight Smalling and Evans for a place, and I don't think we'd want any of those three.
I'm not against taking a calculated risk on a promising young player, but if we go to Everton's apparent asking price of around £35m, it just doesn't represent value for money.
Begovic, Zouma, Mikel, Oscar, Cuadrado, Moses, Falcao
Costa's missing because of his hamstring FFS.
Spot on Richmond. We'd be taking a punt on Stones and if we're spending around £35m on a centre-back if should be someone that's top drawer now, not one that just has the potential to be.
Willian was impressive in my opinion, and it's a pity our best chances in the first half fell to Ramires. Arsenal have won the bragging rights for this game, but I'd prefer to look at the overall performance and we still look the best bet over 38 games.