Windows Blue first look

13

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  • neo_walesneo_wales Posts: 13,625
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    John259 wrote: »
    Dual booting with 7 and 8 is possible but quite complicated to set up unless you're an expert.

    You could think of Windows 8 itself performing the two roles with Metro mode and Desktop mode.

    John, its easy enough to do, MS have a good video on how to do it, its not rocket science.
  • d'@ved'@ve Posts: 45,452
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    John259 wrote: »
    If dual booting is being set up on a computer which came with Win8 installed, is UEFI a complication?
    Not in my case, though I installed W8 myself.

    Why would it be? MS don't use UEFI for nefarious purposes as far as I know.
  • TheBigMTheBigM Posts: 13,125
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    Stupid question I suppose but can't 7 and 8 exist side by side, as 7 fulfils the mouse/desktop role, and 8 fills the tablet/phone role (albeit with a bit of tweaking by some).

    Well's that what 8 is already. You've got the tablet phone side AND the desktop side all built into one. You wouldn't want to reboot your whole machine just to switch environments would you?

    With windows 8, the desktop tile takes you into a land that is very similar to windows 7.
  • John259John259 Posts: 28,327
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    d'@ve wrote: »
    Why would it be?
    UEFI locks a computer to operating systems which have the necessary keys. This was perceived as a likely serious problem with Linux although I think it has now been resolved. I don't know if it's a problem with Win7, I'm only conjecturing that it might be, and even then it might be possible to disable UEFI to get round it. Just another potential complication in what for normal users would be an extremely daunting project.
  • neo_walesneo_wales Posts: 13,625
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    TheBigM wrote: »
    Well's that what 8 is already. You've got the tablet phone side AND the desktop side all built into one. You wouldn't want to reboot your whole machine just to switch environments would you?

    With windows 8, the desktop tile takes you into a land that is very similar to windows 7.

    Blooming good post there chap, spot on.
  • d'@ved'@ve Posts: 45,452
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    John259 wrote: »
    UEFI locks a computer to operating systems which have the necessary keys. This was perceived as a likely serious problem with Linux although I think it has now been resolved. I don't know if it's a problem with Win7, I'm only conjecturing that it might be, and even then it might be possible to disable UEFI to get round it. Just another potential complication in what for normal users would be an extremely daunting project.

    I've seen your posts on this subject before, but I don't think it happens. Unless and until it does, I can't see that it's a problem. Just because it could be done by MS doesn't mean it ever will.

    My only interaction with UEFI is its marvellous ability to allow hard drives bigger than 2 TB! :)
  • cnbcwatchercnbcwatcher Posts: 56,681
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    Stupid question I suppose but can't 7 and 8 exist side by side, as 7 fulfils the mouse/desktop role, and 8 fills the tablet/phone role (albeit with a bit of tweaking by some).

    That's what they should have done. They should have continued selling Windows 7 for desktop and laptop users and kept Windows 8 for the tablet/touchscreen computers. I was in PC World earlier and the more I play with W8 the more crap I think it is.
  • John259John259 Posts: 28,327
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    They should have continued selling Windows 7 for desktop and laptop users
    Tesco Direct currently have a lot of Windows 7 laptop models on sale, considerably more than they had a month or two ago. I wonder if that's a reaction to customer demand?
  • DotNetWillDotNetWill Posts: 4,564
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    John259 wrote: »
    UEFI locks a computer to operating systems which have the necessary keys. This was perceived as a likely serious problem with Linux although I think it has now been resolved. I don't know if it's a problem with Win7, I'm only conjecturing that it might be, and even then it might be possible to disable UEFI to get round it. Just another potential complication in what for normal users would be an extremely daunting project.

    Close but no cigar, you don't "disable UEFI" to get around it at all. UEFI has replaced the traditional BIOS so disabling it would effectively your PC in to a brick.

    UEFI enabled devices have a feature that will only run a signed a boot loader. This means the motherboard manufacturers have to load certificates that will be trusted directly into the firmware on the motherboard. Some Linux distros have managed to get their certs on there so they will boot with no problem, others have not.

    On x86 platforms part of the Windows Hardware certification says that the loading of only of signed boot loaders should be optional but they insist that if you ship Win8 it is enabled by default. The hardware certification for ARM devices says it shouldn't, this is inline with industry practice for ARM (think Android/iOS).

    And no it's not a problem with Win7 since MS have their certs in motherboard firmware.

    It's not at all a complication, it's very likely it's going to be a problem.
  • John259John259 Posts: 28,327
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    There's a lot of very conflicting and vague comments on this subject on various web sites. Some people say that the Secure Boot feature of UEFI must be disabled in order to convert a computer from Windows 8 to Windows 7. Some people even claim that some computer manufacturers make it impossible to disable Secure Boot, thus preventing the computer from running anything other than Windows 8 - but I wonder if the people making those claims have merely failed to discover how to do it. Similarly there are conflicting opinions regarding whether all this is a evil lock-in plan by Microsoft or a genuine attempt to reduce the risk of malicious software being installed.
  • StigStig Posts: 12,446
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    John259 wrote: »
    Similarly there are conflicting opinions regarding whether all this is a evil lock-in plan by Microsoft or a genuine attempt to reduce the risk of malicious software being installed.

    The tin-foil hat brigade have lots of conspiracy theories, no doubt.

    Secure boot makes a lot of sense for some users who would rather not have the security bypassed by anyone with a suitable USB stick or CD-ROM to boot from. However, for those users who want the freedom to use whatever obscure Linux distro they wish, it could be a problem, so should be able to be switched off.
  • d'@ved'@ve Posts: 45,452
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    Stig wrote: »
    The tin-foil hat brigade have lots of conspiracy theories, no doubt.

    Secure boot makes a lot of sense for some users who would rather not have the security bypassed by anyone with a suitable USB stick or CD-ROM to boot from. However, for those users who want the freedom to use whatever obscure Linux distro they wish, it could be a problem, so should be able to be switched off.

    So are you and John259 saying that secure boot is a problem or potential problem only on new PCs that come with Windows pre-installed?
  • StigStig Posts: 12,446
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    d'@ve wrote: »
    So are you and John259 saying that secure boot is a problem or potential problem only on new PCs that come with Windows pre-installed?
    It's a potential problem with any new PC which has UEFI.

    A good article here:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unified_Extensible_Firmware_Interface#Secure_boot_2
  • John259John259 Posts: 28,327
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    d'@ve wrote: »
    So are you and John259 saying that secure boot is a problem or potential problem only on new PCs that come with Windows pre-installed?
    According to what I've read, computers bearing a "certified for Windows 8" sticker must have Secure Boot implemented and by default enabled. There are contradictory comments regarding whether or not that causes problems with converting them to Windows 7, and I haven't found anything meaningful regarding converting a Windows 8 computer to dual boot 8 and 7. FWIW some people suggest that running one of the operating systems in a virtual machine might be a better option than dual booting.

    Some of the contradictions might be because some comments were written while Windows 8 was still being beta tested and/or before the Linux fixes for Secure Boot were developed.

    Apologies if I've been crying wolf here, but a lot of what I've read says or at least suggests that Secure Boot does cause problems in some circumstances.
  • d'@ved'@ve Posts: 45,452
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    Stig wrote: »
    It's a potential problem with any new PC which has UEFI.

    A good article here:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unified_Extensible_Firmware_Interface#Secure_boot_2

    Thanks.

    Glad my UEFI-BIOS mobo was built before any of this nonsense started then, and that it should be good for another decade before I'll want or need to replace it. That should give the industry and European competition watchdogs plenty of time to sort out any major restrictive issues arising.
  • Kolin KlingonKolin Klingon Posts: 4,296
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    Stig wrote: »

    Love the way he is aimlessly dragging his finger over the touch screen and nothing happens.

    I'll stick to a mouse, keyboard and Windows 7.

    When will they get rid of the kiddie blocks?
  • gamercraiggamercraig Posts: 6,069
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    Love the way he is aimlessly dragging his finger over the touch screen and nothing happens.

    I'll stick to a mouse, keyboard and Windows 7.

    When will they get rid of the kiddie blocks?

    Same here. Why on earth a touch-screen OS has to be forced onto desktop/laptop users is beyond my comprehension. Apple manage easily enough by having both, and while OSX has become more iOS-ified slightly each time, it is still a desktop OS in its own right, usable with a mouse and keyboard.

    It takes longer to do things with a mouse and keyboard on W8 than it does on W7, which is not progress
  • cnbcwatchercnbcwatcher Posts: 56,681
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    When will they get rid of the kiddie blocks?

    Hopefully they'll change it back in Windows 9. Who the hell was responsible for Windows 8 anyway? Was it someone who liked Lego and crayons?
  • d'@ved'@ve Posts: 45,452
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    Who the hell was responsible for Windows 8 anyway? Was it someone who liked Lego and crayons?

    It was someone who got the sack last year, wasn't it? :cool:
  • cnbcwatchercnbcwatcher Posts: 56,681
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    d'@ve wrote: »
    It was someone who got the sack last year, wasn't it? :cool:

    That Sinofsky (is that how you spell his name) guy?
  • DJGMDJGM Posts: 3,934
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    Steven Sinofsky wasn't actually sacked by Microsoft, he decided to leave the company.
  • cnbcwatchercnbcwatcher Posts: 56,681
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    DJGM wrote: »
    Steven Sinofsky wasn't actually sacked by Microsoft, he decided to leave the company.

    I thought he was sacked :confused:
  • DJGMDJGM Posts: 3,934
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    I thought he was sacked :confused:
    Nope, that was just a rumour. Here's a line from an e-mail Steve Ballmer (CEO) sent to all Microsoft employees . . .
    As we enter this new era, and with the successful launch of Windows 8
    and Surface behind us, Steven Sinofsky has decided to leave the company.

    . . . and a line from Steven Sinofsky himself from an e-mail he sent to all Microsoft shortly after the one from Ballmer . . .
    After more than 23 years working on a wide range of Microsoft products, I have decided
    to leave the company to seek new opportunities that build on these experiences.

    More here:
    Microsoft Shocker: Windows President Steven Sinofsky Out (Updated)
    The full transcripts of both e-mails are in the Update segment directly below the main part of the article.
  • DotNetWillDotNetWill Posts: 4,564
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    d'@ve wrote: »
    It was someone who got the sack last year, wasn't it? :cool:

    He left, rumours I've seen it's more over internal politics. And the woman who basically lead the design on Metro stepped up into her influence after he left. So Metro is here to stay.
  • John259John259 Posts: 28,327
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    DotNetWill wrote: »
    And the woman who basically lead the design on Metro stepped up into her influence after he left. So Metro is here to stay.
    This is I think the same woman who was responsible for the ribbon bar in Office.
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