As you well know, that is factually incorrect. She heard OP crying / shouting for help. There was no talk of hearing him scream. The female screaming was only heard by the Stipps and Johnson/Berger prior to the fatal shots.
You are using a dishonest misrepresentation here - something done more than once by the defence (with great effect) on the judge whose grasp of the detail was embarrassingly poor.
But don't you see it does not matter. At the very least the fact that the mistake was made, shout, scream, crying out loud, whatever is sufficient to cast serious doubt on what all the ear witnesses heard.
Do you think that at that moment EVDM husband knew how significant that comment would become? He did not. I would say it was highly relevant and reliable.
now do you insist that a crack must only be made by a bat striking the door?
NO, but no other version was put to the court .
or can it also be made when ripping out panels?
Yes it could, but I doubt it would be made by sticking a finger in a bullet hole.
I'm not interested in the defence version, just your own belief about what can cause wood to crack.
Whacking it with a bat.
V said there was no scientific way to determine which came first, the bat strikes or the bullet holes. He said that the crack was caused by the bat being used to pry out the panel, not by the bat striking tha panel. Further, he said that the bat strikes could have come first and been OP trying to scare Reeva.
Why is it necessary to rehash this? It's old, and Masipa was obviously not following along with the evidence as it was presented, and she certainly didnt go back to review it.
But don't you see it does not matter. At the very least the fact that the mistake was made, shout, scream, crying out loud, whatever is sufficient to cast serious doubt on what all the ear witnesses heard.
Screaming is a unique human sound. Loaded with the raw intensity of primal fear, it reaches a pitch and volume utterly unlike any other sound made by a man or woman. It is unmistakeable. It is especially unmistakeable on a quiet, still night with windows open.
Crying / shouting is ENTIRELY different (as you and the defence) well know. Of course men and women could sound alike when crying - even when shouting. But NEVER when screaming. A woman screaming cannot be mistaken with a man screaming. And in this particular case it was not.
The defence (and you) conflate screaming/ crying / shouting - and it worked. It should not have, but it did. It was dishonest and ultimately justice is the poorer for it.
V said there was no scientific way to determine which came first, the bat strikes or the bullet holes. He said that the crack was caused by the bat being used to pry out the panel, not by the bat striking tha panel. Further, he said that the bat strikes could have come first and been OP trying to scare Reeva.
Why is it necessary to rehash this? It's old, and Masipa was obviously not following along with the evidence as it was presented, and she certainly didnt go back to review it.
I'm assuming you'll be asking the same question whenever anybody mentions the melon, or the blood trail, or the jeans, or the plastic bags, etc etc?
But don't you see it does not matter. At the very least the fact that the mistake was made, shout, scream, crying out loud, whatever is sufficient to cast serious doubt on what all the ear witnesses heard.
Do you think that at that moment EVDM husband knew how significant that comment would become? He did not. I would say it was highly relevant and reliable.
Funny, I don't remember MR. VDM ever testifying, and yet something that he said to his wife is used to discredit four other people's testimony and evidence. Good thing that this went your way Porky, you would have been inconsolable had the judge gone the other way with such recklessness. I'm glad to see that the NPA is highly likely to appeal this travesty.
They were Oscar who was screaming because he just accidentally shot Reeva. Would you not be that distraught if you had accidentally killed someone that close to you?
It is not an experiment it is what actually happened. And when it actually happened EVDM heard the screams and thought they were a woman too. But her husband identified them as Oscar's! He knew Oscar, none of the other's did.
He was so distraught that he took his phone downstairs to charge it in the kitchen, told the security guard that everything was "fine" and tried to wrap Reeva up in plastic bags.
All quite normal reactions, I expect you will argue.
Funny, I don't remember MR. VDM ever testifying, and yet something that he said to his wife is used to discredit four other people's testimony and evidence. Good thing that this went your way Porky, you would have been inconsolable had the judge gone the other way with such recklessness. I'm glad to see that the NPA is highly likely to appeal this travesty.
Yes pity EVDM was a state witness. But there you go.
He was so distraught that he took his phone downstairs to charge it in the kitchen, told the security guard that everything was "fine" and tried to wrap Reeva up in plastic bags.
All quite normal reactions, I expect you will argue.
But that is the point. There are no "normal reactions" to that kind of incident. Partly why Nel left well alone.
Screaming is a unique human sound. Loaded with the raw intensity of primal fear, it reaches a pitch and volume utterly unlike any other sound made by a man or woman. It is unmistakeable. It is especially unmistakeable on a quiet, still night with windows open.
Crying / shouting is ENTIRELY different (as you and the defence) well know. Of course men and women could sound alike when crying - even when shouting. But NEVER when screaming. A woman screaming cannot be mistaken with a man screaming. And in this particular case it was not.
The defence (and you) conflate screaming/ crying / shouting - and it worked. It should not have, but it did. It was dishonest and ultimately justice is the poorer for it.
Where on earth did you get that from?!
Reference please.
Oh and BTW why do you think Mr VDM made his comment right out of the blue like that?
Funny, I don't remember MR. VDM ever testifying, and yet something that he said to his wife is used to discredit four other people's testimony and evidence. Good thing that this went your way Porky, you would have been inconsolable had the judge gone the other way with such recklessness. I'm glad to see that the NPA is highly likely to appeal this travesty.
I thought the legal eagles who thought the judgment was wrong were limiting their criticism to that of eventualis.
Doesn't that mean that they think that OP should have been convicted for setting off to kill an intruder?
I'm assuming you'll be asking the same question whenever anybody mentions the melon, or the blood trail, or the jeans, or the plastic bags, etc etc?
Or the screaming..
OK, what about the blood trail and the screaming did Masipa get right? Nothing. And, less importantly, the melon and the jeans, what did she make of them and why should anyone care? I assume that OP will include them in his book, along with all of the bashed up stuff in his bathroom and his bedroom doors, the details that the State could not include to explain that there was violence and bashing sounds in the bathroom unrelated to the two marks on the WC door.
I do believe OP intended to kill Reeva and that the intruder story is a load of BS. I hope that the prosecution appeal and that dolus eventualis is proven, at the very least, and he is incarcerated for a very long time.
I do believe OP intended to kill Reeva and that the intruder story is a load of BS. I hope that the prosecution appeal and that dolus eventualis is proven, at the very least, and he is incarcerated for a very long time.
That very article, before laying the evidence out, says this
"The state admits that its case rests entirely on circumstantial evidence, and it is important to remember that in such circumstances, it is required to prove that their version of events - that the athlete shot and killed his girlfriend on purpose, as they argued through the locked toilet door - is the only version of events that can possibly be true. However implausible parts of Pistorius’s story may seem to be, this is very difficult task indeed."
I do believe OP intended to kill Reeva and that the intruder story is a load of BS. I hope that the prosecution appeal and that dolus eventualis is proven, at the very least, and he is incarcerated for a very long time.
Every time I read his version I never ever cease to be utterly amazed and perplexed that he got away with it.
That an intruder had dodged security and dogs and surveillance to then bang his way into the house in the dead of night , slamming windows and banging doors and locking themselves in there is utterly unbelievable . That OP heard all this banging and slamming and didn't think Reeva up for a pee. That he actually thought the illogical at the expense of the logical leaves me speechless.
Comments
now do you insist that a crack must only be made by a bat striking the door?
NO, but no other version was put to the court .
or can it also be made when ripping out panels?
Yes it could, but I doubt it would be made by sticking a finger in a bullet hole.
I'm not interested in the defence version, just your own belief about what can cause wood to crack.
Whacking it with a bat.
Debora Patta @Debora_Patta 4h
@PhilipsGrant @DavidKlatzow I think the Judge misunderstood or misinterpreted the law on dolus - justice has not been served
http://www.citypress.co.za/news/state-vs-oscar/
http://www.cbsnews.com/videos/forensic-scientist-in-disbelief-over-pistorius-verdict/
But don't you see it does not matter. At the very least the fact that the mistake was made, shout, scream, crying out loud, whatever is sufficient to cast serious doubt on what all the ear witnesses heard.
Do you think that at that moment EVDM husband knew how significant that comment would become? He did not. I would say it was highly relevant and reliable.
V said there was no scientific way to determine which came first, the bat strikes or the bullet holes. He said that the crack was caused by the bat being used to pry out the panel, not by the bat striking tha panel. Further, he said that the bat strikes could have come first and been OP trying to scare Reeva.
Why is it necessary to rehash this? It's old, and Masipa was obviously not following along with the evidence as it was presented, and she certainly didnt go back to review it.
Screaming is a unique human sound. Loaded with the raw intensity of primal fear, it reaches a pitch and volume utterly unlike any other sound made by a man or woman. It is unmistakeable. It is especially unmistakeable on a quiet, still night with windows open.
Crying / shouting is ENTIRELY different (as you and the defence) well know. Of course men and women could sound alike when crying - even when shouting. But NEVER when screaming. A woman screaming cannot be mistaken with a man screaming. And in this particular case it was not.
The defence (and you) conflate screaming/ crying / shouting - and it worked. It should not have, but it did. It was dishonest and ultimately justice is the poorer for it.
I'm assuming you'll be asking the same question whenever anybody mentions the melon, or the blood trail, or the jeans, or the plastic bags, etc etc?
Or the screaming..
Funny, I don't remember MR. VDM ever testifying, and yet something that he said to his wife is used to discredit four other people's testimony and evidence. Good thing that this went your way Porky, you would have been inconsolable had the judge gone the other way with such recklessness. I'm glad to see that the NPA is highly likely to appeal this travesty.
He was so distraught that he took his phone downstairs to charge it in the kitchen, told the security guard that everything was "fine" and tried to wrap Reeva up in plastic bags.
All quite normal reactions, I expect you will argue.
It's ok.
My last sentence was a continuation of the original convo. ;-)
Yes pity EVDM was a state witness. But there you go.
So why did Mr VDM say that?
I disagree.
I guess not eh James, seems you're selective in your baiting.
I bet you know...guon tell us.
But that is the point. There are no "normal reactions" to that kind of incident. Partly why Nel left well alone.
Where on earth did you get that from?!
Reference please.
Oh and BTW why do you think Mr VDM made his comment right out of the blue like that?
I thought the legal eagles who thought the judgment was wrong were limiting their criticism to that of eventualis.
Doesn't that mean that they think that OP should have been convicted for setting off to kill an intruder?
OK, what about the blood trail and the screaming did Masipa get right? Nothing. And, less importantly, the melon and the jeans, what did she make of them and why should anyone care? I assume that OP will include them in his book, along with all of the bashed up stuff in his bathroom and his bedroom doors, the details that the State could not include to explain that there was violence and bashing sounds in the bathroom unrelated to the two marks on the WC door.
I do believe OP intended to kill Reeva and that the intruder story is a load of BS. I hope that the prosecution appeal and that dolus eventualis is proven, at the very least, and he is incarcerated for a very long time.
Who besides you cares? He wasn't even a witness and yet Masipa made his "evidence" trump the evidence of many real witnesses.
That very article, before laying the evidence out, says this
"The state admits that its case rests entirely on circumstantial evidence, and it is important to remember that in such circumstances, it is required to prove that their version of events - that the athlete shot and killed his girlfriend on purpose, as they argued through the locked toilet door - is the only version of events that can possibly be true. However implausible parts of Pistorius’s story may seem to be, this is very difficult task indeed."
Every time I read his version I never ever cease to be utterly amazed and perplexed that he got away with it.
That an intruder had dodged security and dogs and surveillance to then bang his way into the house in the dead of night , slamming windows and banging doors and locking themselves in there is utterly unbelievable . That OP heard all this banging and slamming and didn't think Reeva up for a pee. That he actually thought the illogical at the expense of the logical leaves me speechless.
I think he phoned Stander at 3.19. Then netcare at 3.20
Then when did he have time to hit the door with the bat after running onto the balcony to call for help?