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"Patients should be omitted from NHS dentistry if they have poor dental hygiene"

raidon04raidon04 Posts: 3,448
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In light of the new Governmental proposals on the way the NHS is run (expected in 2011), Dentist Professor Jimmy Steele has claimed that the Governmental should change NHS Dentistry to deny patients from having dental treatment on the NHS if they follow poor dental hygiene.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-12042614

So, what do you think? Is this going back on the universality of the NHS? or is this an intelligent way to cut costs of the NHS and a good tool of persuasion for patients?
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    [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 13,672
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    That's all well and good but how will they define, and how will dentists interpret "poor" hygiene?

    If you then boot out those with poor hygiene then the cost to the NHS will probably go up as they will have higher levels of other diseases like heart disease

    I think it too complicated and full of so many "unknowns" (known-, and unknown-unknowns) to be of any use. But I agree with the sentiment behind it.
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    John_ElwayJohn_Elway Posts: 5,121
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    Patients should be awarded a prize if they find an NHS dentistry :D
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    Biffo the BearBiffo the Bear Posts: 25,859
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    should not get expensive dental treatment on the NHS

    Bugger me, you're telling me that there ISN'T expensive dental treatment on the NHS out there somewhere?
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    tingramretrotingramretro Posts: 10,974
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    John_Elway wrote: »
    Patients should be awarded a prize if they find an NHS dentistry :D

    There are three in Ipswich, which have always been willing to take on new patients since I've lived in/near the town. Thats about twelve years. Some areas do not have a problem.
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    jmclaughjmclaugh Posts: 63,999
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    I'm not sure an NHS dentist is as universal as some think but anyway assuming you have found one it seems rather churlish to then be told sorry we won't treat you as you aren't cleaning your teeth properly. Anyway isn't dental hygiene done by hygienists who afaik aren't covered by NHS charges because if they are they are bloody extortionist.
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    psionicpsionic Posts: 20,188
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    Windy999 wrote: »
    That's all well and good but how will they define, and how will dentists interpret "poor" hygiene?

    If you then boot out those with poor hygiene then the cost to the NHS will probably go up as they will have higher levels of other diseases like heart disease

    I think it too complicated and full of so many "unknowns" (known-, and unknown-unknowns) to be of any use. But I agree with the sentiment behind it.
    As you say, if they refuse treatment to those with relatively minor ailments the costs will increase when they become, or lead to serious or life threatening ailments.

    Many of the tabloids tell us it's hard enough to find an NHS dentist anyway. Apparently a postcode lottery, where people are pulling out their own teeth with pliers, if that is to be believed.
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    jassijassi Posts: 7,895
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    If NHS dentistry retricted itself to basic fillings and extractions it wouldn't be expensive.

    Most of the rest is just cosmetic.
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    Bea*Bea* Posts: 427
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    The vast majority of people who use NHS dentists are people who can't afford to pay for dental care. The majority of people with poor dental hygiene again would be poorer people, due to diet etc. So no, I would not support this as I see it as an attack on the vulnerable.
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    PoliticoRNPoliticoRN Posts: 5,519
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    So the very people who most need NHS dentistry are the first to be excluded?

    Great joined up thinking there.
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    OLD HIPPY GUYOLD HIPPY GUY Posts: 28,199
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    What next?...sick people won't get treatment.........because they are sick?
    :rolleyes:
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    jim_ukjim_uk Posts: 13,280
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    John_Elway wrote: »
    Patients should be awarded a prize if they find an NHS dentistry :D

    A bonus award should given for those who manage to actually get treated before dying of old age.
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    PoliticoRNPoliticoRN Posts: 5,519
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    I have a retained root - caused by previous bad dentistry.

    I fear the dentist like nothing else on, or off, earth and freely admit that I had not maintained contact with my dentist.

    Finally had enough of it and went to try and get it sorted. He took out out two other teeth, that he assured me were going to cause me problems, but which had not so far and referred me to a different dental surgery, one that does in-house minor surgery to have the retained root removed.

    I live right next to several county borders and the differing health group jurisdiction oftem make getting treatment for some things quite difficult. The surgery he referred me to is 35 miles away, with no direct transport links and I have no car. By public transport it will take me around 4 hours to make that journey, and cost around £45. Money I simply don't have as I am on JSA.

    So I asked if the minor surgery could be done somewhere more accessible - the answer is no. And until I have the retained root out at their designated partner surgery I can't get any more routine preventative treatment.
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    Turnbull2000Turnbull2000 Posts: 7,588
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    There's still NHS dentists is there??
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    PoliticoRNPoliticoRN Posts: 5,519
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    There's still NHS dentists is there??

    Yes, took me 18 months to get one though.
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    Bea*Bea* Posts: 427
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    PoliticoRN wrote: »
    I have a retained root - caused by previous bad dentistry.

    I fear the dentist like nothing else on, or off, earth and freely admit that I had not maintained contact with my dentist.

    Finally had enough of it and went to try and get it sorted. He took out out two other teeth, that he assured me were going to cause me problems, but which had not so far and referred me to a different dental surgery, one that does in-house minor surgery to have the retained root removed.

    I live right next to several county borders and the differing health group jurisdiction oftem make getting treatment for some things quite difficult. The surgery he referred me to is 35 miles away, with no direct transport links and I have no car. By public transport it will take me around 4 hours to make that journey, and cost around £45. Money I simply don't have as I am on JSA.

    So I asked if the minor surgery could be done somewhere more accessible - the answer is no. And until I have the retained root out at their designated partner surgery I can't get any more routine preventative treatment.

    Is there a dental teaching hospital near you?
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    ThinWhitePukeThinWhitePuke Posts: 358
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    Sets a dangerous precedent, first people with poor hygiene denied dental treatment and then drinkers, smokers, junk food eaters, sportsmen, motor cyclists being denied NHS hospital treatment.

    So I don't think this is a good idea
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    jassijassi Posts: 7,895
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    PoliticoRN wrote: »
    So the very people who most need NHS dentistry are the first to be excluded?

    Great joined up thinking there.

    Yeah, looks that way :rolleyes:

    I think they were talking about the more expensive work - presumably the bog standard treatment would still be offered - if you could find a dentist willing to do it.
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    Bea*Bea* Posts: 427
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    Sets a dangerous precedent, first people with poor hygiene denied dental treatment and then drinkers, smokers, junk food eaters, sportsmen, motor cyclists being denied NHS hospital treatment.

    So I don't think this is a good idea

    Labour already tried to do it with smokers and people who are obese, didn't they?
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    tingramretrotingramretro Posts: 10,974
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    jim_uk wrote: »
    A bonus award should given for those who manage to actually get treated before dying of old age.

    I can usually get an appointment. The basic procedure is: phone up, say 'can I have an appointment next week' and they say 'what day'. I can't imagine Ipswich is the only town in Britain where there is no shortage of NHS dentists so I can only assume a lot of people are just unlucky.
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    thenetworkbabethenetworkbabe Posts: 45,624
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    Bea* wrote: »
    Is there a dental teaching hospital near you?

    Not as reliable as one might think - I spent a year going to Guys with a gum problem - umpteen diagnosticians, supervisors and students plus a Professor missed somthing nasty going on under a tooth that a new dentist spotted in one look. Thing blew up again 13 years after root canal surgery fixed that and it turned out the tooth was cracked too.....

    Which is why its nonsense for Dentists to not allow treatment on a claim of poor oral hygiene - often its something else they have missed causing the same effect.............

    Its similar too banning overweight people. A lot of overweight people are overweight because their endocrinal systems or digestive monitoring systems are misfunctioning - they often need to find the underlying causes not assume a simple cause.
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    Bea*Bea* Posts: 427
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    Not as reliable as one might think - I spent a year going to Guys with a gum problem - umpteen diagnosticians, supervisors and students plus a Professor missed somthing nasty going on under a tooth that a new dentist spotted in one look. Thing blew up again 13 years after root canal surgery fixed that and it turned out the tooth was cracked too.....

    Which is why its nonsense for Dentists to not allow treatment on a claim of poor oral hygiene - often its something else they have missed causing the same effect.............

    Its similar too banning overweight people. A lot of overweight people are overweight because their endocrinal systems or digestive monitoring systems are misfunctioning - they often need to find the underlying causes not assume a simple cause.

    Sorry to hear about the trouble you have had, toothache is one of the worst pains ever. An x-ray should have shown up any problems.
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    [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 761
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    Instead of punishing those with poor dental hygiene, they could reward those who take good care of their teeth.

    I see the dentist once or twice a year which officially counts as "taking care of my teeth" and a preventive measure. So if I ever have bigger problems (like getting a dental bridge or crown) my health insurance will cover most of the expenses instead of letting me pay for it on my own.

    This reward-system also works for people who take courses (swimming, yoga, aerobic, etc.) to stay physically fit. They pay less into the health pot if they have a written confirmation of doing such a course. I'm not sure if it's the same in the UK though.

    I think that's a better way to persuade patients to take care of themselves.
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    dosanjh1dosanjh1 Posts: 8,727
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    Tubtui wrote: »
    Instead of punishing those with poor dental hygiene, they could reward those who take good care of their teeth.

    I see the dentist once or twice a year which officially counts as "taking care of my teeth" and a preventive measure. So if I ever have bigger problems (like getting a dental bridge or crown) my health insurance will cover most of the expenses instead of letting me pay for it on my own.

    This reward-system also works for people who take courses (swimming, yoga, aerobic, etc.) to stay physically fit. They pay less into the health pot if they have a written confirmation of doing such a course. I'm not sure if it's the same in the UK though.

    I think that's a better way to persuade patients to take care of themselves.

    OMG! A good idea!! On digital spy forums!! I never thought I'd see it, and on baby Jesus birthday!!!:D
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    CharnhamCharnham Posts: 61,397
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    this isnt 100 miles away from, people with unhealthy life styles not getting NHS treatment, and similar examples.
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    gummy mummygummy mummy Posts: 26,600
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    It isn't just the people who don't pay for treatment that have poor dental hygiene so how can a NHS dentist refuse treatment to a patient with poor dental hygiene who pays for it.

    Unless you mean those with poor dental hygiene who don't pay should be omitted from NHS dentistry.
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