EE: I think Shirley knows Dean is a rapist.

jamesc_715 · 21/01/15 - 14:29

Yesterday's episode, Shirley sided with Dean again but her facial expressions led me to believe that Shirley doesn't really believe Dean. I think she's scared of losing Dean as a son but she doesn't seem to trust him anymore.

Thoughts?

[Deleted User] · 21/01/15 - 14:32

I thought so when she was questioning him, she seemed doubtful. I was hoping for a last shot of her face when they were hugging which would suggest that she knew the truth.

bass55 · 21/01/15 - 14:45

If Shirley believes her son is a rapist but is scared to lose him as a result, then she's a even bigger idiot than I thought she was.

Sally77 · 21/01/15 - 14:49

I think she has doubts but wants to believe him as he is her son and she doesn't want him to leave.

Also, I said before, Shirley has known Mick and Linda for years, and how deep their relationship is, does she really believe that Linda would flirt and fancy Dean and have a one night stand with him?

Linda must have had men flirt with her in the previous pub and Linda turned them down, but Shirley believes she would fall for Dean! She must have her doubts knowing how strong Mick and Linda are.

CherryRose · 21/01/15 - 14:55

jamesc_715 wrote: »

Yesterday's episode, Shirley sided with Dean again but her facial expressions led me to believe that Shirley doesn't really believe Dean. I think she's scared of losing Dean as a son but she doesn't seem to trust him anymore.

Thoughts?

I don't think she knows at all, I think she has doubts but of course she will. What is so frustrating is most viewers don't get the storyline, the storyline is that Dean doesn't actually realised that he raped Linda he thinks the sex was consensual.

vald · 21/01/15 - 14:56

Yes, I think it hit her last night, but she's committed to be there for him. She turned her back on her children before when the going got tough and she is not going to do it again.

summer_ste · 21/01/15 - 15:04

I disagree. During the episode, especially the bit where Dean said Linda slapped him, I thought Shirley maybe suspected... but by the end of the episode she was convinced of his innocence.

shrinkingviolet · 21/01/15 - 15:06

I think she knows deep down what he did (she's not an idiot) - she knows that story 'she loved it', 'she was playing hard to get', 'she slapped me but she loved it', 'I don't need to do that' nonsense is exactly what it is, but wants to believe him so badly that she is willing to ignore it, no matter what.

It's the whole 'I'll stand by you, no matter what' thing she said at the beginning - she is standing by her son even though deep down she knows what he did and that's why she took so long to go get him afterwards.

Mattehhhftw · 21/01/15 - 15:07

bass55 wrote: »

If Shirley believes her son is a rapist but is scared to lose him as a result, then she's a even bigger idiot than I thought she was.

I agree, urgh

NoughtiesMusic · 21/01/15 - 15:08

If she thinks that, are they not re-creating a Dot and Nick Cotton scenario? Aware of her son's evilness but still willing to stick by him. Hopefully she doesn't start with a "he's a good boy my Dean" line. Dot's motivation to stand by Nick all these years is based on her faith (she is hiding him in Kat and Alfie's burnt out house at the moment). The only thing that drives Shirley is her ego and the need to feel less of a failed mother.

Pink_Smurf · 21/01/15 - 15:44

I think she had her doubts but believed him eventually, more fool her. I think too she is scared of losing him again and that's colouring her thinking. She wants to believe him.

Firegazer · 21/01/15 - 15:46

Pink_Smurf wrote: »

I think she had her doubts but believed him eventually, more fool her. I think too she is scared of losing him again and that's colouring her thinking. She wants to believe him.

I don't get it, though. Why would anyone want to have someone like that in her life? She's hardly close to him as it is.

Lizzie Brookes · 21/01/15 - 15:47

CherryRose wrote: »

I don't think she knows at all, I think she has doubts but of course she will. What is so frustrating is most viewers don't get the storyline, the storyline is that Dean doesn't actually realised that he raped Linda he thinks the sex was consensual.

I agree.

Lizzie Brookes · 21/01/15 - 15:49

summer_ste wrote: »

I disagree. During the episode, especially the bit where Dean said Linda slapped him, I thought Shirley maybe suspected... but by the end of the episode she was convinced of his innocence.

I agree.

Lisa_Thomas2 · 21/01/15 - 15:56

Wasn't there that bit when she said she was there for him no matter what? Like even if he did do it, she'd stand by him.

Pacerkez · 21/01/15 - 16:00

I think she knows deep down, but just doesn't want to admit it to herself. i think she believed Linda when they had that chat, and was hoping Hearing Deans side of things would sway her.

Pink_Smurf · 21/01/15 - 16:06

Firegazer wrote: »

I don't get it, though. Why would anyone want to have someone like that in her life? She's hardly close to him as it is.

She's got her son back after all this time so it's colouring her thinking. I think she might change her mind when she finds out Linda went to the police.

misty cloud · 21/01/15 - 16:09

I wonder if Buster will make Dean realise / face up to what he has done? Or will Dean be long gone by the time he returns?

LittleStewie · 21/01/15 - 16:16

I think that in her heart of hearts she does know that he is lying but I think she's can't face it and so she lies to herself. After all, you can convince yourself of anything if you want (at least for a while anyway)

cobis · 21/01/15 - 16:17

Dean and Shirley have the same agenda:

Dean wants to believe he isn't a rapist, that Linda led him on and wanted the sex, his comment about not needing to rape someone was very telling, he is assuming that rapists are men who cant get sex any other way which is nonsense, there are many rapists out there who have loving wives and girlfriends waiting for them at home, it isn't about sex it is about control and power, and maybe humiliation, Linda turned him down preferring her husband of 20 plus years, what a blow to the ego for vain self centred Dean

Shirley also wants to believe Dean is not a rapist, she has heard Linda's version and Dean's. She knows Linda very well, Linda is all about sparkles and fairy lights, romance and being worshipped, she gets all that from Mick, really Shirley would she trade that in for face down on the kitchen table where her children are going to eat their cornflakes the next morning with Dean?

But also to Shirley Linda is expendable, she is worth sacrificing to keep Dean in the family, after all Linda has achieved everything Shirley hasn't, a husband and children who worship and adore her, a mother who she is still very close too, she has a good friend in Sharon, the woman who has also taken what Shirley regards as rightfully hers, her place in Phil's life and family and she has Mick constantly by her side supporting her, Shirley was cast out of Mick's life for 15 years after burning down their pub and Linda was not at all enthusiastic about letting her back in, Shirley is not going to let that happen again if she can help it.

And because Shirley is such a bad mother she cant see that the best thing Dean can do is turn himself in, admit his guilt suffer his punishment and make a new life somewhere else and seek help for his skewed way of thinking, because if he isn't charged or found guilty Mick and Lee will not let him go unpunished and then Shirley will be caught in the middle and there wont be any way back this time

LM · 21/01/15 - 16:17

I thought this from the minute her denial began. As i said ages ago, Shirley is lying to herself because the thought of her son being a rapist will take away that bond and love that has taken a very long time to rebuild. She wants nothing to ruin that and will remain blind to whatever is presented to her.

Harlowe · 21/01/15 - 17:22

cobis wrote: »

Dean and Shirley have the same agenda:

Dean wants to believe he isn't a rapist, that Linda led him on and wanted the sex, his comment about not needing to rape someone was very telling, he is assuming that rapists are men who cant get sex any other way which is nonsense, there are many rapists out there who have loving wives and girlfriends waiting for them at home, it isn't about sex it is about control and power, and maybe humiliation, Linda turned him down preferring her husband of 20 plus years, what a blow to the ego for vain self centred Dean

Shirley also wants to believe Dean is not a rapist, she has heard Linda's version and Dean's. She knows Linda very well, Linda is all about sparkles and fairy lights, romance and being worshipped, she gets all that from Mick, really Shirley would she trade that in for face down on the kitchen table where her children are going to eat their cornflakes the next morning with Dean?

But also to Shirley Linda is expendable, she is worth sacrificing to keep Dean in the family, after all Linda has achieved everything Shirley hasn't, a husband and children who worship and adore her, a mother who she is still very close too, she has a good friend in Sharon, the woman who has also taken what Shirley regards as rightfully hers, her place in Phil's life and family and she has Mick constantly by her side supporting her, Shirley was cast out of Mick's life for 15 years after burning down their pub and Linda was not at all enthusiastic about letting her back in, Shirley is not going to let that happen again if she can help it.

And because Shirley is such a bad mother she cant see that the best thing Dean can do is turn himself in, admit his guilt suffer his punishment and make a new life somewhere else and seek help for his skewed way of thinking, because if he isn't charged or found guilty Mick and Lee will not let him go unpunished and then Shirley will be caught in the middle and there wont be any way back this time

Spot on.

Shirley is in denial, she wants to believe him because of her insecurities of being a shit mother and letting him down so much and who wants to think their son a rapist but in her heart she knows there truth in what Linda says.

Linda is everything she not and got everything she wants, she only got her foot back in the door and she doesn't want to loose it again so it's easier for her to believe Linda is lying then telling the truth, plus she is blinded by a dislike of her, she do whatever to keep herself and Dean in that family even if it means being ignorant to the truth, Linda isn't family as far as she concerned so she can be easily disposed but stupidly doesn't realize that Mick is too loyal to Linda, something she knows nothing about.

Sereniity · 21/01/15 - 17:29

cobis wrote: »

Dean and Shirley have the same agenda:

Dean wants to believe he isn't a rapist, that Linda led him on and wanted the sex, his comment about not needing to rape someone was very telling, he is assuming that rapists are men who cant get sex any other way which is nonsense, there are many rapists out there who have loving wives and girlfriends waiting for them at home, it isn't about sex it is about control and power, and maybe humiliation, Linda turned him down preferring her husband of 20 plus years, what a blow to the ego for vain self centred Dean

Shirley also wants to believe Dean is not a rapist, she has heard Linda's version and Dean's. She knows Linda very well, Linda is all about sparkles and fairy lights, romance and being worshipped, she gets all that from Mick, really Shirley would she trade that in for face down on the kitchen table where her children are going to eat their cornflakes the next morning with Dean?

But also to Shirley Linda is expendable, she is worth sacrificing to keep Dean in the family, after all Linda has achieved everything Shirley hasn't, a husband and children who worship and adore her, a mother who she is still very close too, she has a good friend in Sharon, the woman who has also taken what Shirley regards as rightfully hers, her place in Phil's life and family and she has Mick constantly by her side supporting her, Shirley was cast out of Mick's life for 15 years after burning down their pub and Linda was not at all enthusiastic about letting her back in, Shirley is not going to let that happen again if she can help it.

And because Shirley is such a bad mother she cant see that the best thing Dean can do is turn himself in, admit his guilt suffer his punishment and make a new life somewhere else and seek help for his skewed way of thinking, because if he isn't charged or found guilty Mick and Lee will not let him go unpunished and then Shirley will be caught in the middle and there wont be any way back this time

Brilliant post! you have the storyline nailed.

eejm · 21/01/15 - 17:35

cobis wrote: »

Dean and Shirley have the same agenda:

Dean wants to believe he isn't a rapist, that Linda led him on and wanted the sex, his comment about not needing to rape someone was very telling, he is assuming that rapists are men who cant get sex any other way which is nonsense, there are many rapists out there who have loving wives and girlfriends waiting for them at home, it isn't about sex it is about control and power, and maybe humiliation, Linda turned him down preferring her husband of 20 plus years, what a blow to the ego for vain self centred Dean

Shirley also wants to believe Dean is not a rapist, she has heard Linda's version and Dean's. She knows Linda very well, Linda is all about sparkles and fairy lights, romance and being worshipped, she gets all that from Mick, really Shirley would she trade that in for face down on the kitchen table where her children are going to eat their cornflakes the next morning with Dean?

But also to Shirley Linda is expendable, she is worth sacrificing to keep Dean in the family, after all Linda has achieved everything Shirley hasn't, a husband and children who worship and adore her, a mother who she is still very close too, she has a good friend in Sharon, the woman who has also taken what Shirley regards as rightfully hers, her place in Phil's life and family and she has Mick constantly by her side supporting her, Shirley was cast out of Mick's life for 15 years after burning down their pub and Linda was not at all enthusiastic about letting her back in, Shirley is not going to let that happen again if she can help it.

And because Shirley is such a bad mother she cant see that the best thing Dean can do is turn himself in, admit his guilt suffer his punishment and make a new life somewhere else and seek help for his skewed way of thinking, because if he isn't charged or found guilty Mick and Lee will not let him go unpunished and then Shirley will be caught in the middle and there wont be any way back this time

I agree with all of this. I'd also like to add that just as Tina noted the other day, Shirley is making this all about her. Shirley recognizes that the rape happened indirectly because she ran off after shooting Phil. (Granted, the blame for the actual rape is on Dean 100%, but I don't think Shirley is at all comfortable with her actions having such a negative effect on his mental state.) Shirley also knows that part of the reason she's been a terrible mother is because she's abandoned her children on multiple occasions. By backing Dean, she feels she's standing by the one child who needs her help most. Also, by supporting Dean she's is removing herself from any association with the rape, as Dean claims it was all consensual sex.

So - Shirley doesn't believe Dean's version of events, but is supporting him because it makes her feel better about herself.

princesstin · 21/01/15 - 17:40

cobis, that's an outstanding post, especially this bit:

his comment about not needing to rape someone was very telling, he is assuming that rapists are men who cant get sex any other way which is nonsense, there are many rapists out there who have loving wives and girlfriends waiting for them at home, it isn't about sex it is about control and power, and maybe humiliation, Linda turned him down preferring her husband of 20 plus years, what a blow to the ego for vain self centred Dean

_elly001 · 21/01/15 - 17:43

CherryRose wrote: »

I don't think she knows at all, I think she has doubts but of course she will. What is so frustrating is most viewers don't get the storyline, the storyline is that Dean doesn't actually realised that he raped Linda he thinks the sex was consensual.

That's too simplistic. Dean's part in the storyline has deliberately been played ambiguously so that the viewer isn't sure one way or the other whether he is delusional or not. There's nothing to "get", as the focus has been with Linda, and rightly so. In a way, Dean isn't really important and therefore it hasn't been important for us to know the inside of his mind yet. (I'm sure it will become more important soon, though.)

For me, I did think there was a good chance that Dean was genuinely delusional up until last night's episode. The narrative he gave Shirley was easy to see from his point of view and possibly up until the last part it was perfectly realistic to think he was simply delusional and he really did believe that Linda was giving him the come on while deliberately being "feisty" (which he even admitted to Shirley.) The very last part of the conversation, however, was the important bit. He vividly recalled what happened the night he raped her and everything he said did actually happen, just not the spin he put in things. But then Shirley asked him "Did she say no, Dean, did she tell you to stop?" and he replied "No, she didn't." That was an outright lie, and that's where Dean's story came undone.

He may believe that she came onto him, he may believe everything that he told Shirley, but there is no way he could possibly believe that Linda didn't say no to him, repeatedly. Therefore deep down I believe he does know that he raped her.

As for Shirley, she is a mother that feels she has continually let Dean down in the past and she doesn't want to believe he is capable. But I also think she is starting to view the other side as well. I don't hate her, she's a mother who is trying to protect her son and is acting on instinct.

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