It is a small shop they are probably required to do both. Aren't Asian clothes made to measure? Helping with fittings would be an integral part of the job.
Yes I guess it would make sense to have a woman in this instance. I just always thought you had to advertise sales jobs open to everybody and then make the choice yourself. On the face of it the advert just looked a bit sexist, even if they did happen to think that a woman would be best suited for the job. The advert just said sales and computer skills which just made me instantly think, why can't a bloke do that? I didn't think at the time that it could be because the job would involve getting up close and personal with women.
Yes I guess it would make sense to have a woman in this instance. I just always thought you had to advertise sales jobs open to everybody and then make the choice yourself. On the face of it the advert just looked a bit sexist, even if they did happen to think that a woman would be best suited for the job.
I doubt that, whoever bashed the ad out on their pc and printed it off, gave as much thought to the wording as has been given here on DS, it probably just came out that way as they have sales girls ... should women be offended that they only want girls?
I just saw somebody on another thread accuse an FM of posting like a male (not direct quote) as they post aggressively Now THAT's sexist ... towards men and women
Not for a clothes shop as part of the job is to help people get dressed/undressed if they wish so you may have to see them naked and obviously a lot if not most people would sooner that the other person be the same gender.
Plus if they wish to have something made to measure they may sooner have someone of the same gender touching various body parts.
Doesn't also sexual orientation come into it? For example would the woman be comfortable allowing another woman to fit her for a bra or touch her body if the sales girl happened to be a lesbian?
Would your average bloke be comfortable getting changed in front of an openly camp gay sales assistant or let him measure his inside leg if he thought he might fancy him? If the answer to the above questions is "sure why not?" then what difference does gender make?
Surely the only reason that a man would make a woman feel uncomfortable is if she thought he liked looking at women. If he's got no interest in women then where's the threat? Maybe that's how Gok Wan gets away with it. If a straight man feels a women's boobs he gets a slap across the face. If a gay bloke does it, she treats it as a bit of fun.
Anyway my point is, just because a woman is working in a women's changing area doesn't mean she isn't gonna get off on staring at other women and a bloke who does the same job doesn't automatic mean he gets off on looking at them as both of the above could be gay so in reality as a female customer, who's the one that's more likely to make you feel uncomfortable? A gay women touching and looking at a women's body or a gay man who isn't interested on the slightest?
The shop owner can put up any sign they like but they should have justification for the wording if they are challenged on it, and there are many savvy people out there who WILL challenge.
If you are going to ask for a particular gender then the relevant statement within the Equality Act should be stated.
Doesn't also sexual orientation come into it? For example would the woman be comfortable allowing another woman to fit her for a bra or touch her body if the sales girl happened to be a lesbian?
Would your average bloke be comfortable getting changed in front of an openly camp gay sales assistant or let him measure his inside leg if he thought he might fancy him? If the answer to the above questions is "sure why not?" then what difference does gender make?
Surely the only reason that a man would make a woman feel uncomfortable is if she thought he liked looking at women. If he's got no interest in women then where's the threat? Maybe that's how Gok Wan gets away with it. If a straight man feels a women's boobs he gets a slap across the face. If a gay bloke does it, she treats it as a bit of fun.
Anyway my point is, just because a woman is working in a women's changing area doesn't mean she isn't gonna get off on staring at other women and a bloke who does the same job doesn't automatic mean he gets off on looking at them as both of the above could be gay so in reality as a female customer, who's the one that's more likely to make you feel uncomfortable? A gay women touching and looking at a women's body or a gay man who isn't interested on the slightest?
You're starting to sound like DS's regular sexuality-obsessed posted roger_purvis. Do gay folk display badges that reveal their sexual orientation? Do gay men all mince around saying, "I'm free!" at every opportunity? Do gay women mouth kiss every female they meet?
You're obsessed with 'the gays' Wizard. It's not healthy!!
It is possible for gay men and woman to have interactions with members of the same sex without becoming aroused, you know, and there are lots of jobs, not just sales assistants in clothes shops, where customers maybe seen in a state of undress, in gyms and leisure centres, for example.
Doesn't also sexual orientation come into it? For example would the woman be comfortable allowing another woman to fit her for a bra or touch her body if the sales girl happened to be a lesbian?
I tend not to ask strangers their sexual orientation, so I wouldn't know if my clothes were being fitted by a lesbian, a gay man or a straight person. It wouldn't occur to me to ask unless they suddenly made a grab for my tits
The Wizard is going to make that shop owner sew saari.
This hasn't had the recognition it deserves. The opportunity for puns on this topic are few and far between and the best I can muster up is something along the lines of the clothing being made out of Kashmir, and for that I apologise!
Doesn't also sexual orientation come into it? For example would the woman be comfortable allowing another woman to fit her for a bra or touch her body if the sales girl happened to be a lesbian?
Would your average bloke be comfortable getting changed in front of an openly camp gay sales assistant or let him measure his inside leg if he thought he might fancy him? If the answer to the above questions is "sure why not?" then what difference does gender make?
Surely the only reason that a man would make a woman feel uncomfortable is if she thought he liked looking at women. If he's got no interest in women then where's the threat? Maybe that's how Gok Wan gets away with it. If a straight man feels a women's boobs he gets a slap across the face. If a gay bloke does it, she treats it as a bit of fun.
Anyway my point is, just because a woman is working in a women's changing area doesn't mean she isn't gonna get off on staring at other women and a bloke who does the same job doesn't automatic mean he gets off on looking at them as both of the above could be gay so in reality as a female customer, who's the one that's more likely to make you feel uncomfortable? A gay women touching and looking at a women's body or a gay man who isn't interested on the slightest?
How would you know if the person your interviewing for the job, is gay ?
It is possible for gay men and woman to have interactions with members of the same sex without becoming aroused,
Correct! Just the same as it's also possible for straight men not to get arroused by women in a fitting room yet men aren't allowed to work in one get gay women are. Seems a bit of a contradiction. If the reason for men not being allowed to work in women's fitting rooms is because it makes women feel uncomfortable then surely the same goes for anyone who might be out to oggle their bodies irrespective of gender.
Do you actually know any gay people?
Yes. Loads actually and I'm bisexual myself and had same sex partners in the past and hung out on the gay and transgenser scene for a few years and worked and socialised with gay colleagues so that kind of shoots your argument in the foot there doesn't it?
The poster is saying he won't be told who he can and who he can't employ. I was assuming that when he recruits someone the provisions of the Equality Act are not considered at all.
Perhaps he'll respond.
I will respond, but not sure what you want me to say.
If I need a printer I will employ a printer, now generally their an able bodied Male, as strength etc is needed, but I won't tell a female printer she can't apply for the job, people will be short listed and given a trial, the best person suited to the job, the best printer and the best person who fits in with the rest of the work force will be employed.
Now if I require a graphic designer I can in all likely hood and have done in the past employ a disabled person, a female, black, white, asian. My only concern is their good at the job, I don't require qualifications, and English is their first language with Welsh being an added bonus. Now if a Polish person turns up and can't string 3 words of English together, then obviously I can't employ them, unless I have a specific requirement for a certain language.
So I don't need anyone telling me who to employ, I can make that decision all by myself, based on what's good for me and my company. Race, religion, age or sex doesn't come into my thought process, the only situation where it arises is if a person is disabled and can't physically do the job.
How would you know if the person your interviewing for the job, is gay ?
You wouldn't. But it's ridiculous to assume that if you hire a woman she's automatically gonna be safer around women's changing rooms than a man. Who's to say the woman won't like looking at other women? In today's society where more and more people are coming out as gay and experimenting with their sexuality then people shouldn't just assume that a bloke in a female changing room is gonna be perving at all the women or that all women are a safe bet around other females. Personally I think I would work quite well helping women try clothes on as I really enjoy shopping with my wife and picking out clothes and know what looks good and I'm always honest yet tactful with my opinion and I can assure you I wouldn't be sitting there perving over everyone when I had a job to do but sadly guys like me don't qualify for such roles because were seen as a threat.
Also it's quite sexist to assume that just because it's a female she's gonna be best to advise them on what looks best and what fashions go best with what because I know a hell of a lot of men who are fabulous with fashion and will give you a straight answer on what looks good and what doesn't. In fact I know of a few gay men who are probably better suited to that than your average women.
My wife always consults me when trying on clothes as she know I have an eye for what looks good and she knows I'll give her an honest answer and I'm also very good a picking out makeup for her seeing as I've worn so much of it myself in the past and know how to apply it she would much rather ask me than a sales girl who's just been hired because she's female and doesn't have a clue what suits her.
how often do you encounter male assistants in any women`s clothes shops? i`m struggling to think of any i have in my 55 years.
That was my first thought, I can't think of many clothing shops exclusively for women I've been into and seen a man working in it. Even a store like River Island which has both male and female clothing, the men work on menswear and the women work on womenswear. Similarly, I've been in a few suit shops in my short time and can't think of a single occasion of seeing a woman working there.
Personally I would not want a bloke in a female changing room, gay or straight. The same goes for male toilet attendants in female toilets or changing rooms at the gym. I'm not being discriminatory or sexist, as I am not an employer, but for my own personal comfort, I'd prefer other women. I think you're making a massive deal about something insignificant.
That was my first thought, I can't think of many clothing shops exclusively for women I've been into and seen a man working in it. Even a store like River Island which has both male and female clothing, the men work on menswear and the women work on womenswear. Similarly, I've been in a few suit shops in my short time and can't think of a single occasion of seeing a woman working there.
i did see a bloke in Next tiding womens clothes the other day actually..
he had a suit on, probably a manager on a walkaround
Personally I would not want a bloke in a female changing room, gay or straight. The same goes for male toilet attendants in female toilets or changing rooms at the gym. I'm not being discriminatory or sexist, as I am not an employer, but for my own personal comfort, I'd prefer other women. I think you're making a massive deal about something insignificant.
Personally it sounds like it's women who have the problem. Like how is it that women wont allow male doctors to examine them? When I go to se my GP and have to drop my trousers it makes no difference to me whether it's a male or a female doctor. They're there to do a job not oggle my privates.
So you're not comfortable with a bloke working in a female fitting room even though people are getting changed behind a curtain or a cubicle door, yet you could quite easily have a gay woman working in there unbeknownst to you who for all you know might be eying you up as you ask her to fasten you into your dress.
The majority of the time the job of fitting room staff is to stand by the entrance asking you how many clothes you're taking in and then taking them off you as you leave so they can be put back on the racks. In a lot of women's clothes shops (Jane Norman being one example) the cubicles are situated in the middle of the shop so fellas are free to stand outside the cubicle while their wife tries stuff on so it doesn't really matter if the staff are male or female but they are always female. Doesn't make sense why so many women are so touchy about a guy standing at the entrance of a fitting room as if he's gonna wander up and down peeping through the curtains or sticking his nose under the cubicle door.
The same goes for male toilet attendants in female toilets
I have seen that both ways around
But they did put up a sign in advance for example in the mens toilets
A Female cleaner will be cleaning the premises between 2pm-2.30pm.
I have also seen signs in female toilets saying that a male will be clearing at a certain time.
On that in town the disabled toilet is inside the women's toilet area so disabled men have to go in there.
Personally I would not want a bloke in a female changing room, gay or straight. The same goes for male toilet attendants in female toilets or changing rooms at the gym. I'm not being discriminatory or sexist, as I am not an employer, but for my own personal comfort, I'd prefer other women. I think you're making a massive deal about something insignificant.
Yes.. common sense dictates that, no need for any laws or government interference. But we had a thread on here recently about a female toilet attendant asking for a man to leave as she was cleaning, well sorry love you took the job, and if the man doesn't feel uncomfortable, neither should you, and if you do, then you should leave.
Personally it sounds like it's women who have the problem. Like how is it that women wont allow male doctors to examine them? When I go to se my GP and have to drop my trousers it makes no difference to me whether it's a male or a female doctor. They're there to do a job not oggle my privates.
Some men do request a male doctor I have seen that myself whilst in the doctors and hospital.
While I was in once a man refused to have a operation because the surgeon was female and he didn't want her to see him down there it was the same op I was having (Hernia) guess it was the day for it.
You wouldn't. But it's ridiculous to assume that if you hire a woman she's automatically gonna be safer around women's changing rooms than a man.
Have you asked why the shop asked for a sales girl? Is it anything to do with safety, or is it more to do with who most prospective customers will feel more comfortable with and thus, spend more money than they would with a salesman?
Who's to say the woman won't like looking at other women? In today's society where more and more people are coming out as gay and experimenting with their sexuality then people shouldn't just assume that a bloke in a female changing room is gonna be perving at all the women or that all women are a safe bet around other females.
In the 2012, the ONS conducted a Sexual Identity survey in the UK, surveying 180,000 people.
93.5% of people identified themselves as hetrosexual.
4.7% of people didn't answer,
1.1% answered Lesbian or gay.
.4% answered bisexual.
.3% answered "other"
I think that on the balance of probabilities, the next person you meet will probably be hetrosexual. Doesn't mean they will be, just that they'll probably be. That is what the customer will probably perceive. It will totally depend on the demographic that the store is appealing to. What is the demographic of the store target audience and their views and attitudes?
Personally I think I would work quite well helping women try clothes on as I really enjoy shopping with my wife and picking out clothes and know what looks good and I'm always honest yet tactful with my opinion and I can assure you I wouldn't be sitting there perving over everyone when I had a job to do but sadly guys like me don't qualify for such roles because were seen as a threat.
Guys like you? Does it frustrate you that lesbians get to change in the woman's changing room? Do you think that homosexual's need their own changing room?
Also it's quite sexist to assume that just because it's a female she's gonna be best to advise them on what looks best and what fashions go best with what because I know a hell of a lot of men who are fabulous with fashion and will give you a straight answer on what looks good and what doesn't. In fact I know of a few gay men who are probably better suited to that than your average women.
My wife always consults me when trying on clothes as she know I have an eye for what looks good and she knows I'll give her an honest answer and I'm also very good a picking out makeup for her seeing as I've worn so much of it myself in the past and know how to apply it she would much rather ask me than a sakes girl who doesn't have a clue what suits her.
Is a Sales girl being chosen for their natural talent in fashion? Or for other reasons.
Comments
Yes I guess it would make sense to have a woman in this instance. I just always thought you had to advertise sales jobs open to everybody and then make the choice yourself. On the face of it the advert just looked a bit sexist, even if they did happen to think that a woman would be best suited for the job. The advert just said sales and computer skills which just made me instantly think, why can't a bloke do that? I didn't think at the time that it could be because the job would involve getting up close and personal with women.
I just saw somebody on another thread accuse an FM of posting like a male (not direct quote) as they post aggressively
Doesn't also sexual orientation come into it? For example would the woman be comfortable allowing another woman to fit her for a bra or touch her body if the sales girl happened to be a lesbian?
Would your average bloke be comfortable getting changed in front of an openly camp gay sales assistant or let him measure his inside leg if he thought he might fancy him? If the answer to the above questions is "sure why not?" then what difference does gender make?
Surely the only reason that a man would make a woman feel uncomfortable is if she thought he liked looking at women. If he's got no interest in women then where's the threat? Maybe that's how Gok Wan gets away with it. If a straight man feels a women's boobs he gets a slap across the face. If a gay bloke does it, she treats it as a bit of fun.
Anyway my point is, just because a woman is working in a women's changing area doesn't mean she isn't gonna get off on staring at other women and a bloke who does the same job doesn't automatic mean he gets off on looking at them as both of the above could be gay so in reality as a female customer, who's the one that's more likely to make you feel uncomfortable? A gay women touching and looking at a women's body or a gay man who isn't interested on the slightest?
If you are going to ask for a particular gender then the relevant statement within the Equality Act should be stated.
You're starting to sound like DS's regular sexuality-obsessed posted roger_purvis. Do gay folk display badges that reveal their sexual orientation? Do gay men all mince around saying, "I'm free!" at every opportunity? Do gay women mouth kiss every female they meet?
You're obsessed with 'the gays' Wizard. It's not healthy!!
What, even in a tiny clothing shop with a poorly written notice displaying the vacancy?
It is possible for gay men and woman to have interactions with members of the same sex without becoming aroused, you know, and there are lots of jobs, not just sales assistants in clothes shops, where customers maybe seen in a state of undress, in gyms and leisure centres, for example.
Do you actually know any gay people?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6b6c8JuWzWI
classic:D:D:D
This hasn't had the recognition it deserves. The opportunity for puns on this topic are few and far between and the best I can muster up is something along the lines of the clothing being made out of Kashmir, and for that I apologise!
http://www.gifbin.com/bin/1237811519_chuck-norris-approves.gif
How would you know if the person your interviewing for the job, is gay ?
Yes. Loads actually and I'm bisexual myself and had same sex partners in the past and hung out on the gay and transgenser scene for a few years and worked and socialised with gay colleagues so that kind of shoots your argument in the foot there doesn't it?
I will respond, but not sure what you want me to say.
If I need a printer I will employ a printer, now generally their an able bodied Male, as strength etc is needed, but I won't tell a female printer she can't apply for the job, people will be short listed and given a trial, the best person suited to the job, the best printer and the best person who fits in with the rest of the work force will be employed.
Now if I require a graphic designer I can in all likely hood and have done in the past employ a disabled person, a female, black, white, asian. My only concern is their good at the job, I don't require qualifications, and English is their first language with Welsh being an added bonus. Now if a Polish person turns up and can't string 3 words of English together, then obviously I can't employ them, unless I have a specific requirement for a certain language.
So I don't need anyone telling me who to employ, I can make that decision all by myself, based on what's good for me and my company. Race, religion, age or sex doesn't come into my thought process, the only situation where it arises is if a person is disabled and can't physically do the job.
You wouldn't. But it's ridiculous to assume that if you hire a woman she's automatically gonna be safer around women's changing rooms than a man. Who's to say the woman won't like looking at other women? In today's society where more and more people are coming out as gay and experimenting with their sexuality then people shouldn't just assume that a bloke in a female changing room is gonna be perving at all the women or that all women are a safe bet around other females. Personally I think I would work quite well helping women try clothes on as I really enjoy shopping with my wife and picking out clothes and know what looks good and I'm always honest yet tactful with my opinion and I can assure you I wouldn't be sitting there perving over everyone when I had a job to do but sadly guys like me don't qualify for such roles because were seen as a threat.
Also it's quite sexist to assume that just because it's a female she's gonna be best to advise them on what looks best and what fashions go best with what because I know a hell of a lot of men who are fabulous with fashion and will give you a straight answer on what looks good and what doesn't. In fact I know of a few gay men who are probably better suited to that than your average women.
My wife always consults me when trying on clothes as she know I have an eye for what looks good and she knows I'll give her an honest answer and I'm also very good a picking out makeup for her seeing as I've worn so much of it myself in the past and know how to apply it she would much rather ask me than a sales girl who's just been hired because she's female and doesn't have a clue what suits her.
That was my first thought, I can't think of many clothing shops exclusively for women I've been into and seen a man working in it. Even a store like River Island which has both male and female clothing, the men work on menswear and the women work on womenswear. Similarly, I've been in a few suit shops in my short time and can't think of a single occasion of seeing a woman working there.
i did see a bloke in Next tiding womens clothes the other day actually..
he had a suit on, probably a manager on a walkaround
Personally it sounds like it's women who have the problem. Like how is it that women wont allow male doctors to examine them? When I go to se my GP and have to drop my trousers it makes no difference to me whether it's a male or a female doctor. They're there to do a job not oggle my privates.
So you're not comfortable with a bloke working in a female fitting room even though people are getting changed behind a curtain or a cubicle door, yet you could quite easily have a gay woman working in there unbeknownst to you who for all you know might be eying you up as you ask her to fasten you into your dress.
The majority of the time the job of fitting room staff is to stand by the entrance asking you how many clothes you're taking in and then taking them off you as you leave so they can be put back on the racks. In a lot of women's clothes shops (Jane Norman being one example) the cubicles are situated in the middle of the shop so fellas are free to stand outside the cubicle while their wife tries stuff on so it doesn't really matter if the staff are male or female but they are always female. Doesn't make sense why so many women are so touchy about a guy standing at the entrance of a fitting room as if he's gonna wander up and down peeping through the curtains or sticking his nose under the cubicle door.
I have seen that both ways around
But they did put up a sign in advance for example in the mens toilets
A Female cleaner will be cleaning the premises between 2pm-2.30pm.
I have also seen signs in female toilets saying that a male will be clearing at a certain time.
On that in town the disabled toilet is inside the women's toilet area so disabled men have to go in there.
Yes.. common sense dictates that, no need for any laws or government interference. But we had a thread on here recently about a female toilet attendant asking for a man to leave as she was cleaning, well sorry love you took the job, and if the man doesn't feel uncomfortable, neither should you, and if you do, then you should leave.
Some men do request a male doctor I have seen that myself whilst in the doctors and hospital.
While I was in once a man refused to have a operation because the surgeon was female and he didn't want her to see him down there it was the same op I was having (Hernia) guess it was the day for it.
Have you asked why the shop asked for a sales girl? Is it anything to do with safety, or is it more to do with who most prospective customers will feel more comfortable with and thus, spend more money than they would with a salesman?
In the 2012, the ONS conducted a Sexual Identity survey in the UK, surveying 180,000 people.
93.5% of people identified themselves as hetrosexual.
4.7% of people didn't answer,
1.1% answered Lesbian or gay.
.4% answered bisexual.
.3% answered "other"
I think that on the balance of probabilities, the next person you meet will probably be hetrosexual. Doesn't mean they will be, just that they'll probably be. That is what the customer will probably perceive. It will totally depend on the demographic that the store is appealing to. What is the demographic of the store target audience and their views and attitudes?
Guys like you? Does it frustrate you that lesbians get to change in the woman's changing room? Do you think that homosexual's need their own changing room?
Is a Sales girl being chosen for their natural talent in fashion? Or for other reasons.
Have you asked?