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Cremation or burial ?
Virgil Tracy
Posts: 26,806 Forum Member
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I don't really get this thing about cremation being so awful , I mean it would only last a few seconds , compare that to being buried where you'd feel the cold for days , then presumably the feeling of maggotts eating you etc. for weeks , months .
also - why were the bodies in the water tanks just skeletons ? they're not the actual bodies are they ? they must be grown somehow yes? and then the person's dead cyber mind put into them - ?
also - why were the bodies in the water tanks just skeletons ? they're not the actual bodies are they ? they must be grown somehow yes? and then the person's dead cyber mind put into them - ?
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The thing is unless there are still brains inside those skulls (and I don't think there were) what are the peoples minds going to be downloaded into?
If it's just into a hard drive within the Cyber suit then what the is the point of keeping the actual human skeletons?
The whole point of Cybermen is that they still have organic brains and (sometimes) other parts.
Even the Cybus Men of Pete's World had their brains and spinal columns transferred into a robotic body.
But just keeping the skeletons seems totally pointless.
What they should have really had is bodies complete with flesh sitting inside the tanks.
i'd imagine its a cost thing for the CGI as it more realism = more cost and for something thats sitting in the background until the final 5 mins theres probably no point
plus it depends what the liquid would allow or not allow to be seen as it could of been a purely calcium based items and if i was going to gain customers the last thing i'd want is for them to be seen as cybermen
Seconds? Cremation takes a few HOURS. It would be agony. :l
well if you just had real people sitting in the tanks it wouldn't require any CGI .
we know the dark water sees flesh that bloke demonstrated it (unless I'm misunderstanding you)
The point about cremation only lasting minutes or at most hours compared to the years of decomposition and feeling the struggle for air you'd have with burial had struck me as well. But perhaps that is all part of the con - the longer they hang around after death, the more time they have to realise it doesn't make sense so won't agree to 'delete'. The threat of fire is a quick way to get them to sign on the dotted line.
Why they were all already skeletons I don't know unless given that we couldn't see the cybermen, maybe it is alomst like an x-ray affect - the cyber body armour and human flesh can't be seen, only the bones can. But then we saw Doctor chang's hand in the Dark Water so I don't really know.
you're right , I googled it , it takes about 2 hours .
When Dr Chang demonstrated the Dark Water his wristwatch and clothes disappeared his flesh did not.
do you think they're the actual bodies of the dead ? 'cos I just thought they were 'grown' or whatever and then the minds they've stolen are uploaded into them.
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Why do 3W want people to not be cremated ? So they can use the bodies.
So yes they are the actual bodies of the dead.
I just want to know where the Brains are
Actually that would have been even more disturbing than the skeletons just seeing a Brain and Spinal column floating in the tanks.
but the 3W people can't stop people being cremated , and that would've already happened anyway . the cremation thing is a scam to scare them into agreeing to something .
as for the bodies - well if they're the actual bodies then they'd have to go and steal them all , which I'm not sure what the advantage would be , plus it would attract attention wouldn't it ?
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The whole point of the 3W Organisation (not the real point of course but what their brochures say and what Dr Chang believed) is that people donate their bodies when they die so the consciousness can continue to exist in a body that is not cremated or burried but is stored in a tank of Dark Water.
It's like people that have their bodies cryogenically frozen in the hope that what killed them can be cured at a later date.
Of course the whole Three Words thing is just a scam to gain more bodies.
but that has nothing to do with whatever happened in reality , I mean Danny would've already been cremated (if he was going to be) , his family would've already made that decision , whatever Danny's mind decides won't affect that .
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Danny says he never specified cremation or burial and as far as we know he has no family so it's quite possible Missy planted a false Will stating Danny wanted his body to go to 3W.
Or his body is still just waiting in the Hospital Morgue, I think in London especially it can take a couple of weeks between someone dying and them being burried/cremated.
We've seen Missy pick up certain individuals from throughout Time and Space presumably for a particular reason and she obviously wanted Danny as the bait to bring the Doctor and Clara to 3W.
Well explained. The decision is made before death for the bodies. Seb up on the Neversphere is seperate - that is getting the deceased to sign over their brain, soul if yyou will after death so they no longer feel the pain (emotional and physical) of still being 'connected' to their earthly remains after their death.
That was my understanding anyway.
but this would all attract attention , if all these people are leaving wills saying they want their bodies to go to 3W , the authorities would want to know who 3W are etc.
plus we've seen several characters go to the nethersphere whose bodies would have been destroyed when they died (if memory serves ) .
it just seems easier to me that they'd grow bodies to put the minds in .
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My mother died in September and it was exactly 2 weeks for the funeral. You need a pink form from the Registry Office before you can contact the funeral directors to have the body moved from the hospital Morgue (and Danny would have gone to hospital) and you can't get the Death registered until you've got the certificate from the Hospital (which takes several days) and Waited for an appointment to see the Registrar. You then need to co-ordinate times for a religious ceremony (-f having one) and a slot at the Crematorium which can take a while. So, assuming Danny went straight to the Neversphere after death (as everyone else we've seen has) there would likely be a couple of weeks between his arriving and disposal of his earthly remains.
But anyway, I think the body and 'soul' are two separate ussues anyway in this scenario.
I do find it quite hard to believe that an ex Soldier wouldn't have made a will or specified what should happen to him after death.
This was actually stated in the show.
Danny complained of feeling cold and was told it was because his body was being kept in a cold place - the morgue.
As his death was the result of an accident, I think it would be held there at least a week before being released to his family for burial/cremation, and that will take another week to arrange.
I believe that actually - they are sucked into the matrix
fed sensations of coldness as part of convincing them they have died and are slowly coaxed into letting go of their previous lives, to give in and accept death, and to let go of all emotions (press the delete button). The cremation line is probably given to every new person to join, its either part of the psychological threat to help speed them along towards the decision of pressing delete, or in fact is part of the actual "upgrade" process - a searing burning sensation as the upgraded mind is plucked out of the matrix back into the upgraded body.
i.e. The stories of cremation etc are just a cover story along with all the other falseties told to the newly acquired minds in the Matrix.
But they probably already know! That's the beauty of it, the human race is complicit in it's own downfall. Dr Chang seemed very surprised that Clara and The Doctor didn't know about the 'Three Words' because it is common knowledge to everybody of that time. We don't know how far in the future they are, it could be fifty hours or fifty years! 'Don't cremate me' could just be propaganda by The Master.
The Master hides a message in TV broadcasts 'Don't cremate me'; feeds it to a respected scientist who specialises in that area and who then produces theories and evidence to back it all up (as much as possible). People go into a panic and lots of rich people pay to have themselves entombed forever in water so that they can 'live on' in the next world without their physical bodies being burnt and disturbed.
Meanwhile The Master is using these bodies and giving them to Cybermen to upgrade into Cyber soldiers for whatever nefarious purpose he/she is going for today.
True, perhaps The Master has just set up the Gallifreyan Data Bank at a certain point and is collecting all the minds of anybody who dies. It's not like he/she has a choice about whose body is given to the 3W institute.
But cybermen don't need the minds. In fact it's the first thing they get rid of during conversion. All they want are bodies