Whist owing the Governement loads in Inheritance tax each time. Still at least he can time travel, put a couple of quid on the lottery and then collect his winnings later. That should be enough to cover it
the question is - how did he survive detonating The Moment ? he was on Galifrey at the time wasn't he ? I was a bit confused by the desert bit , was it a real desert on Galifrey ?
.
That's true too... Perhaps it wasn't on Gallifrey? Although he did say he had no intention of surviving. This is getting a bit tangled :rolleyes:
I'm sorry, but your own perception of a narrative does not a deus ex machina make. The Moment is not one. We were lead to believe that is how it played out all along. And she/it was there from very early on in the story to allow us to know her/its purpose.
Why ask the question: 'why did she interfere and manipulate events so much?', when you've answered it with the previous statement: 'a conscience'
The Moment has a conscience, it knows what it will do to all the innocent children should it be used. It doesn't want to kill them. That's what having a conscience does...
no , I'm saying at times it gets too close to being a deus ex machina .
It does too much to manipulate events , it doesn't just show him the moral implications , it opens time holes , gives him the clue about the sonic , halts him from pressing the button , lets the other doctors come and be there etc.
There were quite a few issues but the one that stands out for me is that if the doctor didn't use the moment and time lock the time war, what did Dalek Caan fly into to save Davros?
A paradox, probably why he went crazy. Nowt to do with the time lock breach lol
well the story is ongoing , but as far as this story is concerned - the time war and how it ended , then yes she does seem rather like a deus-ex-machina who suddenly appears to help fix things .
a conscience is one thing but why did she interfere and manipulate events so much ? seemed more like a God to me.
Not a conscience - a consciousness. You are told very early in the episode that the weapon has become sentient. It ensures the weapon is used correctly by showing the potential user the consequences of its use. The user must balance those against the consequences of NOT using it.
With the War Doctor acting alone, the consequences of not using it would have been worse so he (would have) had to press the button. Like others, I believe that until the 11th Doctor's timeline, he did. Once three doctors were involved, a third possibility between doing nothing and pressing the button became possible, Once that third alternative had been taken, in Smith's doctor;s timeline, of course it had ALWAYS been taken, but in thir personal timelines, all the doctors before Smith would still believe it hadn't.
There were quite a few issues but the one that stands out for me is that if the doctor didn't use the moment and time lock the time war, what did Dalek Caan fly into to save Davros?
A paradox, probably why he went crazy. Nowt to do with the time lock breach lol
The time war is still timelocked. the only difference is that Galifrey isn't timelocked in it, but separately.
Not a conscience - a consciousness. You are told very early in the episode that the weapon has become sentient. It ensures the weapon is used correctly by showing the potential user the consequences of its use. The user must balance those against the consequences of NOT using it.
With the War Doctor acting alone, the consequences of not using it would have been worse so he (would have) had to press the button. Like others, I believe that until the 11th Doctor's timeline, he did. Once three doctors were involved, a third possibility between doing nothing and pressing the button became possible, Once that third alternative had been taken, in Smith's doctor;s timeline, of course it had ALWAYS been taken, but in thir personal timelines, all the doctors before Smith would still believe it hadn't.
You know, am the opporsite. I think what happened, always happened during the Time War and he just didn't know it
all three doctors specifically SAY that they "won't remember" anything about what happened .....
here's another brain scratcher though .....
why did THE MOMENT choose the form of ROSE TYLER?
considering that dr who AT THAT TIME did not actually meet her!
i have a theory myself, that it took an image from his past present and FUTURE memory!
another little note for the writers here, maybe they could have used more past companions as well, having more interaction ..... would have been a nice touch
You know, am the opporsite. I think what happened, always happened during the Time War and he just didn't know it
only what happened to gallifrey changed, everything else hasn't changed ..... that's why we see the scattered remains of the dalek army about the place ..... THAT'S WHY they showed them being "blasted off" from the scene
all three doctors specifically SAY that they "won't remember" anything about what happened .....
Yeah so how did DT Doctor remember he had married Queen Elizabeth I (in the specials) if he wouldn't remember anything about it? That was the biggest plot whole for me!
all three doctors specifically SAY that they "won't remember" anything about what happened .....
here's another brain scratcher though .....
why did THE MOMENT choose the form of ROSE TYLER?
considering that dr who AT THAT TIME did not actually meet her!
i have a theory myself, that it took an image from his past present and FUTURE memory!
another little note for the writers here, maybe they could have used more past companions as well, having more interaction ..... would have been a nice touch
That's what they should have done! After Billie in the first scene we should have had various other companions, both new series and classic. Martha, Donna, Jack, Jo Grant, Teagan, Jamie, Leela, Romana etc. Okay, getting them all involved could have been tricky, and who do you leave out?
From my perspective if Tennant and Smith had just told Hurt that the Daleks would survive the Moment, so it was a bit pointless using it, then it might have made for a more rational, if less entertaining, episode.
all three doctors specifically SAY that they "won't remember" anything about what happened .....
here's another brain scratcher though .....
why did THE MOMENT choose the form of ROSE TYLER?
considering that dr who AT THAT TIME did not actually meet her!
i have a theory myself, that it took an image from his past present and FUTURE memory!
another little note for the writers here, maybe they could have used more past companions as well, having more interaction ..... would have been a nice touch
You may have missed it but it was explicit in the script. The Moment says it chose a face from the Doctor's past but then says 'or your future...i always get those mixed up' (I paraphrase but that's basically what she said). so, yes, your theory is correct but was in the show anyway.
You have to think about this from The Doctors view POST De-Sync.
On that desert planet, set's up The Moment, goes to Activate it,
...
Wakes up in the TARDIS, now Regenerated, Gallifrey and Daleks gone.
But this goes against The Doctor saying that he actually watched the Daleks and Gallifrey burn. I'm still going to say that he originally did destroy it, but a new timeline was created in the episode.
But this goes against The Doctor saying that he actually watched the Daleks and Gallifrey burn. I'm still going to say that he originally did destroy it, but a new timeline was created in the episode.
I agree, but once he didn't, he always didn't, even though three of him think he did. I refer you to the Time Traveler's Handbook of 1001 Tense Formations by Dr. Dan Streetmentioner.
But this goes against The Doctor saying that he actually watched the Daleks and Gallifrey burn. I'm still going to say that he originally did destroy it, but a new timeline was created in the episode.
It doesn't strictly — the dialogue was explicit that it would look exactly like the moment had been used from outside. So presumably that's what the newly regenerated Eccleston saw, whether live or by recording.
Though I'm still unclear on how that gels with all thirteen Doctors turning up to help. But I guess you either have to assume they also suffer memory loss subsequently or go with the new timeline. Otherwise 1–9 know they're not really going to blow up Gallifrey.
You have to think about this from The Doctors view POST De-Sync.
On that desert planet, set's up The Moment, goes to Activate it,
...
Wakes up in the TARDIS, now Regenerated, Gallifrey and Daleks gone.
Yeah but the argument still holds true. If the Doctor believes he ended the Time War by using the Moment, and Hurt's Doctor needs to be convinced not to use the Moment, then surely the rational argument is to tell Hurt that the Daleks survived it so getting rid of Gallifrey is just handing victory to the Daleks.
how about the plot hole that by removing the planet gallifray the daleks fired on themselves?
or
that all the doctors turned up at the perfect time to make the planet disappear - but all "forgot" about it?
or
that the doctor has maintained that if the time lords were still alive "he would know"?
or
in the night of the doctor he takes a potion to become the war doctor, the war doctor being a complete dick who doesn't do any real fighting or even end the time war!
or
they've maintained the time war was in time lock, which they've just conveniently forgotten all about?
or that doctors can regenerate into older versions of a former regeneration and hang about in galleries for however long?
Hush! stop using logic and firmly established dr who history to point out that Moffs script has more holes than Spurs defence against Man City!
I have been told by others on this forum to just enjoy the episode and keep any complaints to myself as Moff clearly knows what he is doing.....
I was pretty tired watching the episode so forgive me if I've got this wrong, but...
When the TARDIS was being flown by helicopter over London, the UNIT people (the Brig's daughter and the woman who's main purpose in the episode was to reference Tom's scarf) watched it fly over when they were on the ground at the Tower of London - yet when it landed in Trafalgar Square, they were standing there to meet the Doctor
Comments
Whist owing the Governement loads in Inheritance tax each time. Still at least he can time travel, put a couple of quid on the lottery and then collect his winnings later. That should be enough to cover it
That's true too... Perhaps it wasn't on Gallifrey? Although he did say he had no intention of surviving. This is getting a bit tangled :rolleyes:
no , I'm saying at times it gets too close to being a deus ex machina .
It does too much to manipulate events , it doesn't just show him the moral implications , it opens time holes , gives him the clue about the sonic , halts him from pressing the button , lets the other doctors come and be there etc.
Rose saves her dad in the 80's and all hell breaks loose with flying monsters and the insides of the tardis dropping its guts?
Thought this myself, but then since it was Smiths plan, Capaldi then knew to do it.
A paradox, probably why he went crazy. Nowt to do with the time lock breach lol
Wibbly wobbly.
Timey wimey.
With the War Doctor acting alone, the consequences of not using it would have been worse so he (would have) had to press the button. Like others, I believe that until the 11th Doctor's timeline, he did. Once three doctors were involved, a third possibility between doing nothing and pressing the button became possible, Once that third alternative had been taken, in Smith's doctor;s timeline, of course it had ALWAYS been taken, but in thir personal timelines, all the doctors before Smith would still believe it hadn't.
The time war is still timelocked. the only difference is that Galifrey isn't timelocked in it, but separately.
You know, am the opporsite. I think what happened, always happened during the Time War and he just didn't know it
here's another brain scratcher though .....
why did THE MOMENT choose the form of ROSE TYLER?
considering that dr who AT THAT TIME did not actually meet her!
i have a theory myself, that it took an image from his past present and FUTURE memory!
another little note for the writers here, maybe they could have used more past companions as well, having more interaction ..... would have been a nice touch
only what happened to gallifrey changed, everything else hasn't changed ..... that's why we see the scattered remains of the dalek army about the place ..... THAT'S WHY they showed them being "blasted off" from the scene
they're the team rocket of doctor who
Yeah so how did DT Doctor remember he had married Queen Elizabeth I (in the specials) if he wouldn't remember anything about it? That was the biggest plot whole for me!
Well, once it happened, it always happened, but until it happened, it hadn'twouldhavehappened.
That's what they should have done! After Billie in the first scene we should have had various other companions, both new series and classic. Martha, Donna, Jack, Jo Grant, Teagan, Jamie, Leela, Romana etc. Okay, getting them all involved could have been tricky, and who do you leave out?
Only two said they wouldn't remember. Watch it again.
On that desert planet, set's up The Moment, goes to Activate it,
...
Wakes up in the TARDIS, now Regenerated, Gallifrey and Daleks gone.
You may have missed it but it was explicit in the script. The Moment says it chose a face from the Doctor's past but then says 'or your future...i always get those mixed up' (I paraphrase but that's basically what she said). so, yes, your theory is correct but was in the show anyway.
But this goes against The Doctor saying that he actually watched the Daleks and Gallifrey burn. I'm still going to say that he originally did destroy it, but a new timeline was created in the episode.
I agree, but once he didn't, he always didn't, even though three of him think he did. I refer you to the Time Traveler's Handbook of 1001 Tense Formations by Dr. Dan Streetmentioner.
It doesn't strictly — the dialogue was explicit that it would look exactly like the moment had been used from outside. So presumably that's what the newly regenerated Eccleston saw, whether live or by recording.
Though I'm still unclear on how that gels with all thirteen Doctors turning up to help. But I guess you either have to assume they also suffer memory loss subsequently or go with the new timeline. Otherwise 1–9 know they're not really going to blow up Gallifrey.
Yeah but the argument still holds true. If the Doctor believes he ended the Time War by using the Moment, and Hurt's Doctor needs to be convinced not to use the Moment, then surely the rational argument is to tell Hurt that the Daleks survived it so getting rid of Gallifrey is just handing victory to the Daleks.
Hush! stop using logic and firmly established dr who history to point out that Moffs script has more holes than Spurs defence against Man City!
I have been told by others on this forum to just enjoy the episode and keep any complaints to myself as Moff clearly knows what he is doing.....
When the TARDIS was being flown by helicopter over London, the UNIT people (the Brig's daughter and the woman who's main purpose in the episode was to reference Tom's scarf) watched it fly over when they were on the ground at the Tower of London - yet when it landed in Trafalgar Square, they were standing there to meet the Doctor