Well, you shouldn't if you're someone who weighs up the pros and cons of accepting large numbers of refugees - ie. the 200,000+ quotas the left are advocating - because it serves no good to the refugees whatsoever if you invite them only to realise rather belatedly that you can't meet their needs as adequately and as well as you would want anyone who is poor, destitute and desperate for relief. If a government cannot meet the needs of your own people residing on your own doorstep as adequately and as well as they can, how can you possible boast that you can meet the needs of hordes of foreign people heading to your shores? It make no sense at all!!
The poor working-classes feel abandoned by Labour and they will certainly feel very hard-done by by the Conservatives. And yet they will be the ones who will disproportionately feel the burden of the nation's accepting more refugees, economic immigrants and asylum seekers. Though he may speak for them on other issues, but not even Jeremy Corbyn speaks for them on this particular issue because he wants to welcome more refugees. (That image of that plank of wood MP from York Central burns in my memory like a hole.) It's no wonder the likes of Kendell and Cooper got dumped by their membership.
Just in case anyone missed that rather bizarre speech, here it is :
The refugees have no clear route to Germany – but they will keep going Huge numbers of people have been heading towards western Europe for weeks now, along an artery that runs from Turkey and Greece towards Germany via Macedonia, Serbia and Hungary. Now this human river risks breaking up into small streams, after Hungary closed the border to Serbia, and Croatia did likewise.
This was not supposed to happen. Historic rivalry with neighbouring Serbia – aside from any other humanitarian impulse – dictated that Croatia would not wish to behave any less hospitably to incomers than Belgrade has done; the columns of people have been moving through Serbia without much problem for two months.
Nor did Croatia’s authorities passively observe the Hungarian border fence going up. They knew that, if Hungary closed the route running north from Serbia, a new channel would open up to the west through Croatia, Slovenia and Austria. That is why prime minister Zoran Milanovic rushed to meet Austrian chancellor Werner Faymann to plot a joint strategy on Wednesday.
Milanovic also insisted that Croatia - unlike Hungary - would place no obstacle in the path of people wishing to cross the country on their way to Germany. Plans were in place to receive 5,000 people at a time. The idea was to transport them from the border to reception centres in New Zagreb, at Jezevo just east of Zagreb, to Kutina, further east, to Sisak in the south and to a fourth centre in Eastern Slavonia, near the Serbian frontier.
Croatia 'will move migrants on' - PM Milanovic Migrants flooding into Croatia will be "moved on", PM Zoran Milanovic has warned, adding that his country cannot become a "migrant hotspot".
He said the country's borders would not be shut completely, but it had reached its limit.
His remarks came as Croatia closed seven of eight road crossings after a huge influx of migrants seeking onward passage towards northern Europe.
More than 14,000 have entered Croatia, with tensions high and many exhausted. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34291648
people will soon go back to the wringing of hands and bleating with sympathy with the first coverage of a baby thats just been born,
kid getting squashed by the grown ups,
woman going overboard with the crying and yelling because they fell over
or a nice bright orange inflateable boat pulling up with a load of blokes and one little child in it
its only in the background of the coverage that we see 99% of the migrants (Im still not willing to call them refugees) are young men, are aggressive when they dont get what they want and only interested in getting to a rich country and not for refuge
i keep saying this, but why do they keep having babies when they live in war-torn countries? No-one genuinely fearful for their life would do this surely?
I think its because of the way mines could have sunk in mud and debris that they cant find them
That's what it sounded like from the report yesterday, you mentioned the flooding earlier, it either moved landmarks and/or signs, plus the mud/debris moving would make finding them a huge task even for a relatively small area.
mines can be around for a long time its still going to be 10-20 years before most of the Cambodian mines are cleared
And a report this morning about Mozambique has finally declared all the landmines there have finally been cleared after 20-odd years - it's not something that would ever strike one as being such a lengthy process because we assume a few people with metal detectors could do it and forget the huge areas that have to be covered.
i keep saying this, but why do they keep having babies when they live in war-torn countries? No-one genuinely fearful for their life would do this surely?
I could not believe how a husband could let his wife risk her life and her unborn babys life the other day when Sky news interviewed him
the baby was four days old, born in Greece and they had come from Syria to Turkey and then gone on to Hungary
Wouldnt it have been safer to have the baby in Turkey where it was safe and then not travel until mother and baby were stronger
These migrants are putting their children in more danger than most of them would have been if they had stayed in the first safest place they came to
That's what it sounded like from the report yesterday, you mentioned the flooding earlier, it either moved landmarks and/or signs, plus the mud/debris moving would make finding them a huge task even for a relatively small area.
And a report this morning about Mozambique has finally declared all the landmines there have finally been cleared after 20-odd years - it's not something that would ever strike one as being such a lengthy process because we assume a few people with metal detectors could do it and forget the huge areas that have to be covered.
A lot of the mines in Cambodia were laid in farmland and near water
the Khmer Rouge didnt warn or tell where they laid them as mines were used as a way to keep the land from being farmed so the population would starve or get out if they could
Croatia 'will move migrants on' - PM Milanovic Migrants flooding into Croatia will be "moved on", PM Zoran Milanovic has warned, adding that his country cannot become a "migrant hotspot".
He said the country's borders would not be shut completely, but it had reached its limit.
His remarks came as Croatia closed seven of eight road crossings after a huge influx of migrants seeking onward passage towards northern Europe.
More than 14,000 have entered Croatia, with tensions high and many exhausted. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34291648
Is anyone keeping count of how many U - Turns Croatia has made now ?
I could not believe how a husband could let his wife risk her life and her unborn babys life the other day when Sky news interviewed him
the baby was four days old, born in Greece and they had come from Syria to Turkey and then gone on to Hungary
Wouldnt it have been safer to have the baby in Turkey where it was safe and then not travel until mother and baby were stronger
These migrants are putting their children in more danger than most of them would have been if they had stayed in the first safest place they came to
I think theres a small window of opportunity before the Winter sets in . Most are taking advantage of the the momentum and chaos .
I could not believe how a husband could let his wife risk her life and her unborn babys life the other day when Sky news interviewed him
the baby was four days old, born in Greece and they had come from Syria to Turkey and then gone on to Hungary
Wouldnt it have been safer to have the baby in Turkey where it was safe and then not travel until mother and baby were stronger
These migrants are putting their children in more danger than most of them would have been if they had stayed in the first safest place they came to
When stuck in what you would consider "being in limbo", why would anyone risk getting pregnant and bringing a child to share in the predicament?
As for 72% of men making up the refugee numbers, I suspect there will a number from that group who will have children and a wife living in some camp or still in Syria. There was a shot of one man filmed by RT who had 5 children. They weren't with him, but he showed the cameraman/woman photos of his children. So I suspect that once he can secure refugee status in Europe, he will ask for them to be settle with him.
Croatia: Refugees clash with police at Beli Monastir train station Refugees and migrants, who are currently stranded in a train station in Beli Manastir, clashed with Croatian police on Friday, as they were waiting to board trains to Zagreb. Some were injured during the incident and received first aid. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VyX5Pa52OY
I could not believe how a husband could let his wife risk her life and her unborn babys life the other day when Sky news interviewed him
the baby was four days old, born in Greece and they had come from Syria to Turkey and then gone on to Hungary
Wouldnt it have been safer to have the baby in Turkey where it was safe and then not travel until mother and baby were stronger
These migrants are putting their children in more danger than most of them would have been if they had stayed in the first safest place they came to
It depends on where they were in Turkey - only a third of refugees can get places in camps and many are living rough there, begging on the streets, because there simply isn't enough support available for the numbers escaping Syria.
So on that basis there would be plenty of room in Europe for the children and their mothers , or in some cases fathers(where he is the lone parent) and the rest could go back to Syria and fight for their country instead of running off and expecting everyone else to make it safe for them.
Amazing so many men have survived this devastation, isn't it. Looking at 2nd world war refugee photos it's more what we would expect: trails of mostly women and kids, grannies and old men.
Not here though, it's the lads with the iphones and Nikes.
WW2 saw forced expulsion of whole peoples, many of whom were too old or too sick to be on the move but were forced to anyway leading to numerous deaths.
Less than half a million migrants have made the trek to Europe this year out of millions of displaced people. It stands to reason that it is probably going to be the younger, fitter and healthier people who are going to cross the Mediterranean and then try and walk across Europe (hardly an appealing prospect for people in their fifties, sixties and seventies).
Fights break out as refugees queue at Croatia station – video Police try to calm the crowds at a bus and train station in Beli Manastir, eastern Croatia, on Friday. Fights and rows break out as thousands queue for tickets. More than 7,000 refugees have entered Croatia in the past 24 hours. Croatia has closed almost all of its eight road border crossings with Serbia http://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2015/sep/18/fights-break-out-refugees-queue-croatia-station-video
So on that basis there would be plenty of room in Europe for the children and their mothers , or in some cases fathers(where he is the lone parent) and the rest could go back to Syria and fight for their country instead of running off and expecting everyone else to make it safe for them.
What are they supposed to fight with? And who are they supposed to fight for or against? Many are leaving because they have already fought for years and lost, to ISIS or to their own government. Some are leaving to avoid being conscripted into Assad's army, where they will be expected to kill other Syrians... some are leaving simply because they don't agree with any of the belligerents and just want to live in peace. .
As I said, there are things I don't agree with Turkey with (although I am wary of reports for and against their involvement in any specifics, on the grounds there is so much propaganda being spread about that you can perm any view you like from the stuff around) - however there is no doubt that Turkey is assisting refugees and no doubt that more support is needed there unless people want to see this exodus to Europe to continue.
There is absolutely no doubt Turkey is one of the main instigators and supporters of the Sunni uprising in Syria jesaya, it's been covered in the left press as well as the right & center. It's part of an alliance with Qatar & Saudi Arabia to destroy the Shia Crescent from Lebanon to Iran which lies in the way of a re-established Sunni Ottoman Empire. Turkey's president Erdogan is Sunni Islamist demagogue who has been part of a covert movement to destroy secularism in Turkey over the 25 years, and were it not for the success of the Kurdish party in recent elections, he would have changed the constitution to allow himself greater power, hence his now viscious war against the Kurds in revenge. We are not dealing with someone who is honest & rational, we are dealing with someone who will sink to any level of violence, deceit and manipulation to further his & his allies' aims.
So on that basis there would be plenty of room in Europe for the children and their mothers , or in some cases fathers(where he is the lone parent) and the rest could go back to Syria and fight for their country instead of running off and expecting everyone else to make it safe for them.
Very possible that those fleeing Syria are no supporters of Assad nor of the rebel forces opposing him. It may be that they see this civil war going on for years with no end in sight and that they see no future for themselves there.
What are they supposed to fight with? And who are they supposed to fight for or against? Many are leaving because they have already fought for years and lost, to ISIS or to their own government. Some are leaving to avoid being conscripted into Assad's army, where they will be expected to kill other Syrians... some are leaving simply because they don't agree with any of the belligerents and just want to live in peace. .
For me this argument falls on deaf ears when they come over to Europe and many (not all) are ungrateful by the hospitality shown by many countries in Europe. If the countries these migrants are fleeing are in such bad shape why are they not grateful for the food, clothing and shelter being offered to them?
There is absolutely no doubt Turkey is one of the main instigators and supporters of the Sunni uprising in Syria jesaya, it's been covered in the left press as well as the right & center. It's part of an alliance with Qatar & Saudi Arabia to destroy the Shia Crescent from Lebanon to Iran which lies in the way of a re-established Sunni Ottoman Empire. Turkey's president Erdogan is Sunni Islamist demagogue who has been part of a covert movement to destroy secularism in Turkey over the 25 years, and were it not for the success of the Kurdish party in recent elections, he would have changed the constitution to allow himself greater power, hence his now viscious war against the Kurds in revenge. We are not dealing with someone who is honest & rational, we are dealing with someone who will sink to any level of violence, deceit and manipulation to further his & his allies' aims.
I appreciate the complexities of the political situation and the various views If we start looking for the roots of this disaster then Turkey is far from the only protagonist involved both in the region and in the rest of the world. There is plenty of blame to go around... but none of that feeds,houses or educates a single refugee, no matter which leaders did what to whom. Nor does it help the ordinary Turkish people who are sharing their country with three or four times the number of refugees than the whole of Europe put together.
The 'blame' I am talking about isn't to do with who started this mess, but 'why doesn't Turkey stop them leaving'... and that is unfair because it simply isn't possible for them to do so nor cope with the people they are allowing to freely enter from Syria.
For me this argument falls on deaf ears when they come over to Europe and many (not all) are ungrateful by the hospitality shown by many countries in Europe. If the countries these migrants are fleeing are in such bad shape why are they not grateful for the food, clothing and shelter being offered to them?[/QUOTE]
This is what gets to me too. Our local schools have been collecting clothing to send off but looking at the callous way they are treating clothing handouts, it's a waste of time and effort.
For me this argument falls on deaf ears when they come over to Europe and many (not all) are ungrateful by the hospitality shown by many countries in Europe. If the countries these migrants are fleeing are in such bad shape why are they not grateful for the food, clothing and shelter being offered to them?
But who says they aren't? I notice it's mainly people here slating the migrants at all opportunities and saying how ungrateful they are but the international media reporting on what is happening on the ground are generally sympathetic to their plight. If they were such a horrible, unruly and ungrateful lot, you would expect patience to be wearing thin and media coverage starting to become hostile towards them but that doesn't seem to be happening at all.
Comments
Just in case anyone missed that rather bizarre speech, here it is :
http://www.ukip.org/york_mp_backtracks_on_allowing_migrants_to_saturate_britain_claiming_waiting_lists_don_t_matter
Huge numbers of people have been heading towards western Europe for weeks now, along an artery that runs from Turkey and Greece towards Germany via Macedonia, Serbia and Hungary. Now this human river risks breaking up into small streams, after Hungary closed the border to Serbia, and Croatia did likewise.
This was not supposed to happen. Historic rivalry with neighbouring Serbia – aside from any other humanitarian impulse – dictated that Croatia would not wish to behave any less hospitably to incomers than Belgrade has done; the columns of people have been moving through Serbia without much problem for two months.
Nor did Croatia’s authorities passively observe the Hungarian border fence going up. They knew that, if Hungary closed the route running north from Serbia, a new channel would open up to the west through Croatia, Slovenia and Austria. That is why prime minister Zoran Milanovic rushed to meet Austrian chancellor Werner Faymann to plot a joint strategy on Wednesday.
Milanovic also insisted that Croatia - unlike Hungary - would place no obstacle in the path of people wishing to cross the country on their way to Germany. Plans were in place to receive 5,000 people at a time. The idea was to transport them from the border to reception centres in New Zagreb, at Jezevo just east of Zagreb, to Kutina, further east, to Sisak in the south and to a fourth centre in Eastern Slavonia, near the Serbian frontier.
Those carefully laid plans now lie in ruins. Overwhelmed by the crowds pushing up against police lines near the Tovarnik crossing, the police lost control, thousands poured past them, and on Thursday night Croatia removed the welcome mat. Seven of the eight border crossings are closed.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/sep/18/refugees-serbia-germany-hungary-croatia-slovenia-europe
Migrants flooding into Croatia will be "moved on", PM Zoran Milanovic has warned, adding that his country cannot become a "migrant hotspot".
He said the country's borders would not be shut completely, but it had reached its limit.
His remarks came as Croatia closed seven of eight road crossings after a huge influx of migrants seeking onward passage towards northern Europe.
More than 14,000 have entered Croatia, with tensions high and many exhausted.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34291648
i keep saying this, but why do they keep having babies when they live in war-torn countries? No-one genuinely fearful for their life would do this surely?
I notice how Sky doesnt seem to be giving full live coverage of that but does give us a nice bleeding heart interview with a refugee charity
And a report this morning about Mozambique has finally declared all the landmines there have finally been cleared after 20-odd years - it's not something that would ever strike one as being such a lengthy process because we assume a few people with metal detectors could do it and forget the huge areas that have to be covered.
the baby was four days old, born in Greece and they had come from Syria to Turkey and then gone on to Hungary
Wouldnt it have been safer to have the baby in Turkey where it was safe and then not travel until mother and baby were stronger
These migrants are putting their children in more danger than most of them would have been if they had stayed in the first safest place they came to
the Khmer Rouge didnt warn or tell where they laid them as mines were used as a way to keep the land from being farmed so the population would starve or get out if they could
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KhNziVp8U_4
Live Stream scheduled for 2pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=goOZanLgEMs
Is anyone keeping count of how many U - Turns Croatia has made now ?
I think theres a small window of opportunity before the Winter sets in . Most are taking advantage of the the momentum and chaos .
When stuck in what you would consider "being in limbo", why would anyone risk getting pregnant and bringing a child to share in the predicament?
As for 72% of men making up the refugee numbers, I suspect there will a number from that group who will have children and a wife living in some camp or still in Syria. There was a shot of one man filmed by RT who had 5 children. They weren't with him, but he showed the cameraman/woman photos of his children. So I suspect that once he can secure refugee status in Europe, he will ask for them to be settle with him.
Refugees and migrants, who are currently stranded in a train station in Beli Manastir, clashed with Croatian police on Friday, as they were waiting to board trains to Zagreb. Some were injured during the incident and received first aid.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VyX5Pa52OY
It depends on where they were in Turkey - only a third of refugees can get places in camps and many are living rough there, begging on the streets, because there simply isn't enough support available for the numbers escaping Syria.
So on that basis there would be plenty of room in Europe for the children and their mothers , or in some cases fathers(where he is the lone parent) and the rest could go back to Syria and fight for their country instead of running off and expecting everyone else to make it safe for them.
WW2 saw forced expulsion of whole peoples, many of whom were too old or too sick to be on the move but were forced to anyway leading to numerous deaths.
Less than half a million migrants have made the trek to Europe this year out of millions of displaced people. It stands to reason that it is probably going to be the younger, fitter and healthier people who are going to cross the Mediterranean and then try and walk across Europe (hardly an appealing prospect for people in their fifties, sixties and seventies).
Police try to calm the crowds at a bus and train station in Beli Manastir, eastern Croatia, on Friday. Fights and rows break out as thousands queue for tickets. More than 7,000 refugees have entered Croatia in the past 24 hours. Croatia has closed almost all of its eight road border crossings with Serbia
http://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2015/sep/18/fights-break-out-refugees-queue-croatia-station-video
Fighting among themselves now
What are they supposed to fight with? And who are they supposed to fight for or against? Many are leaving because they have already fought for years and lost, to ISIS or to their own government. Some are leaving to avoid being conscripted into Assad's army, where they will be expected to kill other Syrians... some are leaving simply because they don't agree with any of the belligerents and just want to live in peace. .
Very possible that those fleeing Syria are no supporters of Assad nor of the rebel forces opposing him. It may be that they see this civil war going on for years with no end in sight and that they see no future for themselves there.
For me this argument falls on deaf ears when they come over to Europe and many (not all) are ungrateful by the hospitality shown by many countries in Europe. If the countries these migrants are fleeing are in such bad shape why are they not grateful for the food, clothing and shelter being offered to them?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIuqDC7mnQg
Al-Aqsa Mosque Address: Europe Wants the Muslim Refugees as Labor; We Shall Conquer Their Countries
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdHg9TADZyA
I appreciate the complexities of the political situation and the various views If we start looking for the roots of this disaster then Turkey is far from the only protagonist involved both in the region and in the rest of the world. There is plenty of blame to go around... but none of that feeds,houses or educates a single refugee, no matter which leaders did what to whom. Nor does it help the ordinary Turkish people who are sharing their country with three or four times the number of refugees than the whole of Europe put together.
The 'blame' I am talking about isn't to do with who started this mess, but 'why doesn't Turkey stop them leaving'... and that is unfair because it simply isn't possible for them to do so nor cope with the people they are allowing to freely enter from Syria.
But who says they aren't? I notice it's mainly people here slating the migrants at all opportunities and saying how ungrateful they are but the international media reporting on what is happening on the ground are generally sympathetic to their plight. If they were such a horrible, unruly and ungrateful lot, you would expect patience to be wearing thin and media coverage starting to become hostile towards them but that doesn't seem to be happening at all.