We haven't got an army to do anything anymore and I doubt there is any enthusiasm for a war either
Yes I think Putin has noticed that. He constantly sends his ancient soviet era bombers to test our defences.
If only someone could invent a nuclear fusion reactor, we could solve global warming and turn Russia, Iran etc. in to third word nations overnight. They would have to sell their nukes just to pay the bills.
Yes I think Putin has noticed that. He constantly sends his ancient soviet era bombers to test our defences.
If only someone could invent a nuclear fusion reactor, we could solve global warming and turn Russia, Iran etc. in to third word nations overnight. They would have to sell their nukes just to pay the bills.
Except it will mean the pro EU Ukraine's will control the country as a huge amount of Pro Russian Ukrainians will no longer have a vote.
The pro-Russian Ukrainians' votes do not matter now anyway. When they win their choice is overthrown. I don't think the West realizes what it has done - it has probably made the division of Ukraine inevitable.
Do you have any evidence that it is the vast majority or even a majority at all? The ousted president was elected democraticallyand his party (Party of the Regions) was the largest in the parliament. Even if you take the 2004 presidential results, the losing Party of the Regions had 44% of the vote. Since when is 56% a "vast majority"?
The "opposition" is the majority but was fragmented and displaced by a united minority. The problem was basically you have a country that is 3/4s ethnically Ukrainian with a Moscow leaning president. This is a recipe for instability given the history. Maybe partition is the only realistic option long term.
Yanukovich is still the democratically elected President of Ukraine. If some Ukranians didn't approve of him rejecting the EU in favour of Russia, then they should vote him out at the next election.
For the US/UK/EU to back the undemocratic coup and say that Yanukovich has lost legitimacy because he took a decision that wasn't popular with a section of the population... That's like saying Tony Blair lost legitimacy and deserved to have been deposed when all those thousands of people marched to protest his decision to invade Iraq.
I also have little doubt that Western intelligence were orchestrating the Kiev protests, to get rid of the Russophile incumbent... Why else would 'Wanted' posters for Yanukovich have appeared in English, not Ukrainian or Russian?
Yanukovich is still the democratically elected President of Ukraine. If some Ukranians didn't approve of him rejecting the EU in favour of Russia, then they should vote him out at the next election.
For the US/UK/EU to back the undemocratic coup and say that Yanukovich has lost legitimacy because he took a decision that wasn't popular with a section of the population... That's like saying Tony Blair lost legitimacy and deserved to have been deposed when all those thousands of people marched to protest his decision to invade Iraq.
I also have little doubt that Western intelligence were orchestrating the Kiev protests, to get rid of the Russophile incumbent... Why else would 'Wanted' posters for Yanukovich have appeared in English, not Ukrainian or Russian?
Good post.
Yanukovich is undoubtedly corrupt - but so is the the Ukrainian state framework as a whole.
The people, as you say, should have voted him out if they didn't agree with his policies.
The pro-Russian Ukrainians' votes do not matter now anyway. When they win their choice is overthrown. I don't think the West realizes what it has done - it has probably made the division of Ukraine inevitable.
Maybe Ukraine would be better off if Putin had the Crimea and the Kiev government controlled the rest. Its if he takes the industrial part as well, then they will lose out. Taking the Crimea is a lot easier to justify though as it was part of Russia up until 1954.
There is speculation that Russia is hoping to repeat their Georgia strategy and provoke western Ukraine in to attacking the Crimea. So far they are not falling for it.
Except it will mean the pro EU Ukraine's will control the country as a huge amount of Pro Russian Ukrainians will no longer have a vote.
Except after watching newsnight yesterday I'm not so certain just how 'pro EU' many of the groups that overthrew the president actually are,
It seems that many of them belong to extreme right wing groups, some of the comments from the membership and the leaders of these groups were very worrying, they spoke of Ukraine for the Ukrainian people, they were blaming foreigners, ethnic minorities, and Jews, for all of Ukraines problems, some spoke of wanting a "clean Ukraine" and I don't think they were talking about cleaning the streets, we saw groups of men marching and swaggering around with covered faces in military uniforms many with Nazi insignia, carrying baseball bats and posing for pictures brandishing firearms
Hardy the sort of language one would expect from people wanting to join the EU. OR the sort of people I and no doubt many others would want to see our government defending, in exactly the same way that due to the numbers of Islamic extremist groups among the Syrian rebels, I think we should not be too eager to get involved.
The pro-Russian Ukrainians' votes do not matter now anyway. When they win their choice is overthrown. I don't think the West realizes what it has done - it has probably made the division of Ukraine inevitable.
Apparently the amount of money Ukraine needs in loans is almost exactly the amount the ex president and his mates have stolen. If they have hidden it in the west we might be able to get it back for them.
I suppose the thing is how much of the army can he rely on...
Depending on where their loyalties lie and the fact that if this escalates it will be one countryman against the other. Plus, as an observer of what I have been reading, can the country afford to defend itself against Russia?
Am I right in thinking that to go into another country is technically an Act of War or is that over dramatic?
Lithuania and Latvia have invoked NATO article 4. NATO now obliged to hold emergency council meeting. Only 4th time in history.
Latvia’s population is almost 30% Russian, rising to more than 40 per cent in the capital Riga.
Or watch Threads, it's on youtube. It's a drama made in the 80's about Sheffield at the outbreak of nuclear war. Close the curtains and settle down in the evening type TV, I defy anyone to watch it and not feel affected, brilliant drama.
Of course there is something wrong with Putin taking the Russian speaking parts of Ukraine. Rightly or wrongly, Crimea is part of Ukraine. You can't just invade a sovereign country to take some land. If they want it, and the Crimean people want to belong to Russia, they should go through the proper channels. The Crimean parliament should take a vote and present the result to the Ukrainian government, and Russia should declare that they want Crimea.
The treaty we have with the USA and Ukraine means that, by rights, we should be sending troops over there to defend Ukraine. It's a very dangerous situation because any Western force sent over there will surely lose against the Russian military who have many more resources in the area. The only way an intervention by the UK and USA could work is if we are prepared for a full on war.
I don't want to even try to predict what's going to happen.
Do you think America will be walked over??
If they do nothing it will alow other conflicts, N KOREA , iran to realise USA is talk and no action !
The US and UK have experience of invading countries illegally, so I don't think they can take the moral high ground here. It was probably the western powers that instigated the overthrow of a president and then to put a banker in charge of Ukraine.
The US and UK have experience of invading countries illegally, so I don't think they can take the moral high ground here. It was probably the western powers that instigated the overthrow of a president and then to put a banker in charge of Ukraine.
What makes the waters more murky in this case is the assurances both sides gave Ukraine after gave up their nuclear weapons.
The "Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances" is a diplomatic memorandum that was signed in December 1994 by Ukraine, Russia, the United States, and the United Kingdom.
It is not a formal treaty, but rather, a diplomatic document under which signatories made promises to each other as part of the denuclearization of former Soviet republics after the dissolution of the Soviet Union.
Under the memorandum, Ukraine promised to remove all Soviet-era nuclear weapons from its territory, send them to disarmament facilities in Russia, and sign the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty. Ukraine kept these promises.
In return, Russia and the Western signatory countries essentially consecrated the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Ukraine as an independent state. They did so by applying the principles of territorial integrity and nonintervention in 1975 Helsinki Final Act -- a Cold War-era treaty signed by 35 states including the Soviet Union -- to an independent post-Soviet Ukraine.
It's over for Ukraine. Time to surrender and throw themselves at Putin's mercy unconditionally, maybe they will be forgiven by the Russian bear.
Ukraine's Navy refuses orders from Kiev, defects to Russia
Saturday, 01 March 2014
Ukraine’s Navy flagship, the Hetman Sahaidachny frigate, has reportedly refused to follow orders from Kiev, and come over to Russia’s side and is returning home after taking part in NATO operation in the Gulf of Aden flying the Russian naval flag.
There has been conflicting information on where exactly the vessel is, but a Russian senator has confirmed to Izvestia daily that the frigate defected to the Russian side.
“Ukraine’s Navy flagship the Hetman Sahaidachny has come over to our side today. It has hung out the St Andrew’s flag,” Senator Igor Morozov, a member of the committee on the international affairs, told Izvestia daily.
He said the flagship is on its way back to the Black Sea after drills in the Mediterranean. “The crew has fulfilled the order by the chief commander of Ukraine’s armed forces Viktor Yanukovich,” he added
According to a statement on the Defence Ministry website that ship is still loyal to Ukraine
17:45: BBC Monitoring The Ukrainian navy's flagship, the Hetman Sahaydachny, remains loyal to Ukraine and is "proudly flying the Ukrainian flag", Rear-Adm Andriy Tarasov says in a statement published on the Defence Ministry's website. The Hetman Sahaydachny frigate is currently docked at a naval base on Crete, Greece, on the way back to Ukraine from an anti-piracy mission in the Gulf of Aden and the Indian Ocean, the statement says.
There's no real way of knowing the absolute truth though
There are also rumours that the newly appointed head of the Ukrainian Navy has defected although some people are saying it may have been a forced defection
Comments
Yes I think Putin has noticed that. He constantly sends his ancient soviet era bombers to test our defences.
If only someone could invent a nuclear fusion reactor, we could solve global warming and turn Russia, Iran etc. in to third word nations overnight. They would have to sell their nukes just to pay the bills.
What are you talking about?
Err I would have thought that piece of text required little explanation. You will have to be more specific about what you don't understand.
The pro-Russian Ukrainians' votes do not matter now anyway. When they win their choice is overthrown. I don't think the West realizes what it has done - it has probably made the division of Ukraine inevitable.
The "opposition" is the majority but was fragmented and displaced by a united minority. The problem was basically you have a country that is 3/4s ethnically Ukrainian with a Moscow leaning president. This is a recipe for instability given the history. Maybe partition is the only realistic option long term.
For the US/UK/EU to back the undemocratic coup and say that Yanukovich has lost legitimacy because he took a decision that wasn't popular with a section of the population... That's like saying Tony Blair lost legitimacy and deserved to have been deposed when all those thousands of people marched to protest his decision to invade Iraq.
I also have little doubt that Western intelligence were orchestrating the Kiev protests, to get rid of the Russophile incumbent... Why else would 'Wanted' posters for Yanukovich have appeared in English, not Ukrainian or Russian?
Good post.
Yanukovich is undoubtedly corrupt - but so is the the Ukrainian state framework as a whole.
The people, as you say, should have voted him out if they didn't agree with his policies.
Maybe Ukraine would be better off if Putin had the Crimea and the Kiev government controlled the rest. Its if he takes the industrial part as well, then they will lose out. Taking the Crimea is a lot easier to justify though as it was part of Russia up until 1954.
There is speculation that Russia is hoping to repeat their Georgia strategy and provoke western Ukraine in to attacking the Crimea. So far they are not falling for it.
Except after watching newsnight yesterday I'm not so certain just how 'pro EU' many of the groups that overthrew the president actually are,
It seems that many of them belong to extreme right wing groups, some of the comments from the membership and the leaders of these groups were very worrying, they spoke of Ukraine for the Ukrainian people, they were blaming foreigners, ethnic minorities, and Jews, for all of Ukraines problems, some spoke of wanting a "clean Ukraine" and I don't think they were talking about cleaning the streets, we saw groups of men marching and swaggering around with covered faces in military uniforms many with Nazi insignia, carrying baseball bats and posing for pictures brandishing firearms
Hardy the sort of language one would expect from people wanting to join the EU. OR the sort of people I and no doubt many others would want to see our government defending, in exactly the same way that due to the numbers of Islamic extremist groups among the Syrian rebels, I think we should not be too eager to get involved.
Apparently the amount of money Ukraine needs in loans is almost exactly the amount the ex president and his mates have stolen. If they have hidden it in the west we might be able to get it back for them.
Same happened in Egypt.
Not only that but interim president Olexander Turchynov has put the Ukrainian army on full alert
I'm just reading more on it Verence, it's a very worrying situation
Edit
Link from Reuters
I suppose the thing is how much of the army can he rely on...
Depending on where their loyalties lie and the fact that if this escalates it will be one countryman against the other. Plus, as an observer of what I have been reading, can the country afford to defend itself against Russia?
Am I right in thinking that to go into another country is technically an Act of War or is that over dramatic?
Latvia’s population is almost 30% Russian, rising to more than 40 per cent in the capital Riga.
Europe Editor, ITV News
https://twitter.com/jamesmatesitv?original_referer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theguardian.com%2Fworld%2F2014%2Fmar%2F01%2Fcrimea-crisis-deepens-as-russia-and-ukraine-ready-forces-live-updates&tw_i=439843485383147520&tw_p=tweetembed
Maybe if the (ex-)president invites you it is OK.
Seen it a few times. I liked "When the wind blows" as well.
Do you think America will be walked over??
If they do nothing it will alow other conflicts, N KOREA , iran to realise USA is talk and no action !
What makes the waters more murky in this case is the assurances both sides gave Ukraine after gave up their nuclear weapons.
Link.
Ukraine's Navy refuses orders from Kiev, defects to Russia
Saturday, 01 March 2014
Ukraine’s Navy flagship, the Hetman Sahaidachny frigate, has reportedly refused to follow orders from Kiev, and come over to Russia’s side and is returning home after taking part in NATO operation in the Gulf of Aden flying the Russian naval flag.
There has been conflicting information on where exactly the vessel is, but a Russian senator has confirmed to Izvestia daily that the frigate defected to the Russian side.
“Ukraine’s Navy flagship the Hetman Sahaidachny has come over to our side today. It has hung out the St Andrew’s flag,” Senator Igor Morozov, a member of the committee on the international affairs, told Izvestia daily.
He said the flagship is on its way back to the Black Sea after drills in the Mediterranean. “The crew has fulfilled the order by the chief commander of Ukraine’s armed forces Viktor Yanukovich,” he added
17:45: BBC Monitoring The Ukrainian navy's flagship, the Hetman Sahaydachny, remains loyal to Ukraine and is "proudly flying the Ukrainian flag", Rear-Adm Andriy Tarasov says in a statement published on the Defence Ministry's website. The Hetman Sahaydachny frigate is currently docked at a naval base on Crete, Greece, on the way back to Ukraine from an anti-piracy mission in the Gulf of Aden and the Indian Ocean, the statement says.
There's no real way of knowing the absolute truth though
There are also rumours that the newly appointed head of the Ukrainian Navy has defected although some people are saying it may have been a forced defection