This episode did feel like it could have been a Matt Smith one. Who knows if it was originally meant for series 7 (it could have replaced Town Called Mercy no problem).
I didn't like the parts when the Doctor was bickering with Robin in the cell (though 'Hoody' was good) that didn't feel right for this Doctor.
Luckily, Listen is where Capaldi and Moffat absolutely nail it (so I believe...)
Oh come on! We all know Robot of Sherwood is going to be an episode which really doesn't take itself seriously. All the characters are going to be silly in this episode. It's a silly episode.
We'll see more of mature and serious Capaldi in the coming weeks. Calm down.
It was unnecessarily silly. I'd have been embarrassed to put my name to some of that dialogue, and feel sorry for Peter and Jenna having to repeat it. Silliness can be fun, but this was just cringeworthy.
The scripts that have been used for the first few episodes haven't given Peter an opportunity to develop who his Doctor actually is, and his portrayal remains uneasy and jarring for me as a result. Deep Breath showed so much promise, but it has to be delivered upon, and nothing I've seen since shows me that.
I didn't like the parts when the Doctor was bickering with Robin in the cell (though 'Hoody' was good) that didn't feel right for this Doctor.
Actually, it seems to me to be the one part absolutely consistent with this Doctor that wouldn't work with his predecessor. Eleven was always more optimistic and filled with wonder, I think he would be overjoyed to find such silliness made real.
The first episode touched on the new Doctor's egotism, and the second turned on how the Doctor's need to be proved right can overwhelm him. This is just an extension of that, and I think marked a good point of difference between him and his predecessors.
Don't take this the wrong way as it's not meant to be a criticism but we were never promised a wiser or mature Doctor and there has never been a mature Doctor. If you were expecting certain things from Capaldi's Doctor based on his age then you have nobody but yourself to blame for misjudging the situation.
We're only 3 episodes in and one of them was written by Gatiss whose writing I have no intention of disparaging here but well...
Twelve is already a lot harsher then Eleven, we've seen him be very rude to Clara on a number of occasions and he's been very callous about people dying. But he still has the same Doctor essence as all 11 other incarnations.
Moff did say that episode 7 would be where we really saw a shift to darker territory and Capaldi said that the Doctor doesn't really fit into place until the end of the series.
I don't think he was overly non-mature - okay he had a spoon/sword fight, which was fairly comical but the Doctor is a 2000+ year old being, I think he can me mature, wise and a bit zany/comical all at the same time. Also regarding the spoon, I think it makes perfect sense - Robin Hood is well known for being a thief, while I'm no thief, I'd imagine if a TARDIS turned up beside me, I might have a go at it. The Doctor doesn't carry a weapon - and the spoon is a clear nod to McCoys doctor.
As for the 'Darker' Doctor, that may come to pass, Capaldi is only 3 episodes in, and while he hasn't been 'Darker' he has been broodier, grumpier and more argumentative than Doctors 8-11. He's 3 episodes in, with many more left to come, and I imagine after a few more we will see a darker Doctor? Perhaps he becomes a darker Doctor due to part of a storyline or plot.
In my mind its fathomable that Capaldi will become a Doctor that can encompass the previous incumbents, and add his own style to the role. He's the oldest actor to portray the Doctor so there lies a Hartnell reference, some of the lines in the previous episodes have been more Smith-esque(who was heavily influenced by Troughton), there's also no romance from a Doctor which hasn't been seen since McCoy(or Hurt, but then Hurt was a Warrior).
When I read that a spoon figured in this episode, I assumed it would be a reference to Prince of Thieves when the Sheriff says he'll cut Robin's heart out with a spoon..."Because it's dull, you twit. It'll hurt more."
This episode did feel like it could have been a Matt Smith one. Who knows if it was originally meant for series 7 (it could have replaced Town Called Mercy no problem).
I didn't like the parts when the Doctor was bickering with Robin in the cell (though 'Hoody' was good) that didn't feel right for this Doctor.
Luckily, Listen is where Capaldi and Moffat absolutely nail it (so I believe...)
Apart from the fact that the dialogue from the Doctor couldn't have come from Matt at all (having no joy at laughing... 11? Seriously?). And Clara's cool, calm & collected role in it really wasn't suited to the more fiery Amy. And there really was no room for Rory.
Yes, I see your point - the villains in this episode could clearly have been in another series.
The writing is ruining my personal enjoyment of the show since Moffat took over and whilst Matt may have been able to get away with silliness, I don't think Capaldi is pulling it off too well. All feels very much like Dr Who for a less mature audience. It feels more like Who has turned into the Sarah Jane Chronicles and and should be shown on CBBC rather than Saturday evening prime time. I find it all too silly and immature. I was hoping for a bit more like Hartnell and less like McCoy. Sadly disappointed.
I don't think he was overly non-mature - okay he had a spoon/sword fight, which was fairly comical but the Doctor is a 2000+ year old being, I think he can me mature, wise and a bit zany/comical all at the same time. Also regarding the spoon, I think it makes perfect sense - Robin Hood is well known for being a thief, while I'm no thief, I'd imagine if a TARDIS turned up beside me, I might have a go at it. The Doctor doesn't carry a weapon - and the spoon is a clear nod to McCoys doctor.
As for the 'Darker' Doctor, that may come to pass, Capaldi is only 3 episodes in, and while he hasn't been 'Darker' he has been broodier, grumpier and more argumentative than Doctors 8-11. He's 3 episodes in, with many more left to come, and I imagine after a few more we will see a darker Doctor? Perhaps he becomes a darker Doctor due to part of a storyline or plot.
In my mind its fathomable that Capaldi will become a Doctor that can encompass the previous incumbents, and add his own style to the role. He's the oldest actor to portray the Doctor so there lies a Hartnell reference, some of the lines in the previous episodes have been more Smith-esque(who was heavily influenced by Troughton), there's also no romance from a Doctor which hasn't been seen since McCoy(or Hurt, but then Hurt was a Warrior).
In my opinion it's poor writing if they can't hook the viewer from episode 1. Why should we have to hang around for over half a series waiting for things to improve, settle down and get better? Also it's well known that McCoy was possibly the least liked portrayals of all incarnations of The Doctor so to liken Capaldi to him isn't a good sign. McCoy temporarily lost a lot of fans and is one of the reasons the show fell into decline and went off air for so long.
A bit of silliness or eccentricity is fine but the writing and storylines are bordering on farcical and down right stupid and immature.
In my opinion it's poor writing if they can't hook the viewer from episode 1. Why should we have to hang around for over half a series waiting for things to improve, settle down and get better? Also it's well known that McCoy was possibly the least liked portrayals of all incarnations of The Doctor so to liken Capaldi to him isn't a good sign. McCoy temporarily lost a lot of fans and is one of the reasons the show fell into decline and went off air for so long.
A bit of silliness or eccentricity is fine but the writing and storylines are bordering on farcical and down right stupid and immature.
Really? I have never seen a poll where Mccoy is the least liked. Ever... Hes always at least two from the bottom, more usually around the middle. McGann is invariably below him, and so is Hartnell. So, don't know where you get that assertion from! A quick google search can prove a different result to your claim.
In my opinion it's poor writing if they can't hook the viewer from episode 1. Why should we have to hang around for over half a series waiting for things to improve, settle down and get better?
Not get better. Get different. See the overall scope. Get the big picture.
The writing and acting have been absolutely fine. Many viewers have been hooked from episode 1, not all will be. We all have to wait until we see something that we enjoy - for some people that will be episode 1, for some it might be 5 or 6, for others it might never happen.
But should all episodes tickle the interest of a given viewer, or are we expecting that only some will? Prior evidence suggests only some.
It was unnecessarily silly. I'd have been embarrassed to put my name to some of that dialogue, and feel sorry for Peter and Jenna having to repeat it. Silliness can be fun, but this was just cringeworthy.
I don't think it was that bad. I rather enjoyed it.
I'd actually go as far as saying that Dinosaurs on a Spaceship was sillier, and maybe even The Power of Three.
Really? I have never seen a poll where Mccoy is the least liked. Ever... Hes always at least two from the bottom, more usually around the middle. McGann is invariably below him, and so is Hartnell. So, don't know where you get that assertion from! A quick google search can prove a different result to your claim.
I've seen lot of people say McCoy is the worst Doctor (I personally quite like him though) and I haven't really seen many people at all say they dislike McGann. Most people have nothing but praise for McGann.
The writing is ruining my personal enjoyment of the show since Moffat took over and whilst Matt may have been able to get away with silliness, I don't think Capaldi is pulling it off too well. All feels very much like Dr Who for a less mature audience. It feels more like Who has turned into the Sarah Jane Chronicles and and should be shown on CBBC rather than Saturday evening prime time. I find it all too silly and immature. I was hoping for a bit more like Hartnell and less like McCoy. Sadly disappointed.
Could you please explain further how you think that Deep Breath and Into the Dalek were aimed at young children and would be more at home on CBBC?
I'm personally not seeing it at all.
Lets face it - all new actors playing the Doctor rarely have a good opening couple of episodes, whether its down to the 'new face' element or writing differences - Ecclestone might be an exception here and I think Peter Davison's Castrovalva was filmed fourth in order but shown first and I think that worked well.
Even Matt Smith's first half of his debut season at the time didn't feel "right" at the time (scripts in the vein of the previous incumbent) but on reviewing the episodes a year afterwards it was a lot better than first thought.
I feel this could well be the case for Capaldi however I do still get the impression that the episodes to date are at best "constrained" (don't ask me how as I can't explain fully) but certainly feel that as mentioned elsewhere, that the Dalek episode should have been shown later in the series and as for RoS, that should (in my opinion) be showed once Capaldi is more settled into the role be it in this series or the next.
Yes, three episodes is still too early to judge, but he hasn't "failed" as the Doctor - just been let down by the showrunner in letting poor quality and management decisions affect what could, and most likely, should have been a strong three episode introdution to his portrayal of 'his' Doctor.
I think we're being treated to an influx of the mostly-familiar at the moment. When you look at the series structure, it really is two halves. The first half of the series is made up of known writers and Moffat co-write credits. The second half is a chain of newcomers until the finale - completely avoided by the series trailer - with that mid-point being billed as some kind of turning point. Not just for Moffat's Who, but also Doctor 12.
I think there's a story to be told with 12. More-so than in recent times. I'm looking forward to seeing how it plays out by the end of the series, and what our new writers bring to the table.
That all said, I have found the opening three episodes of S8 more immediately re-watchable than the last few years. So if and when that lever does get pulled, I'll obviously be hoping for the best
The spoon fight was another example of Capaldi's Doctor being unwilling to prescribe to the militaristic/battle norms. He refuses a sword, he doesn't need to wave weapons. He has a spoon.
It just happened to played in a funny way. Blame the director if you like but Peter Capaldi and The Doctor are not always going to be played demure or as a completely serious bore.
I don't think it was that bad. I rather enjoyed it.
I'd actually go as far as saying that Dinosaurs on a Spaceship was sillier, and maybe even The Power of Three.
I've seen lot of people say McCoy is the worst Doctor (I personally quite like him though) and I haven't really seen many people at all say they dislike McGann. Most people have nothing but praise for McGann.
Could you please explain further how you think that Deep Breath and Into the Dalek were aimed at young children and would be more at home on CBBC?
I'm personally not seeing it at all.
As I said, a quick google search proved it. First five polls - on well known, well used sites, and fairly recently. I really don't go on the opinions on forums, as they are not representative. And what some people might think of as being obvious, doesn't necessarily translate to the actual outside world.
Also, confirmation bias is heavy in a forum environment.
I like both McGann and McCoy. McCoy was my Doctor growing up, so I think I'm biased in that respect...
The spoon fight was another example of Capaldi's Doctor being unwilling to prescribe to the militaristic/battle norms. He refuses a sword, he doesn't need to wave weapons. He has a spoon.
That would be a good statement if he didn't actually use it as a weapon.
I have to say that we are all being a bit precious about this regeneration. What about the switch from Troughton to Pertwee which wasn't even explained as a regeneration. I am not sure Pertwee incorporated any element of his predecessor.
But on the main issue I am surprised at how little I like Capaldi's Doctor. I am definitely prepared to warm to him and I confess to being an enormous Matt Smith fan. so vulnerable to charges of bias. Nevertheless, so far I am getting more Malcolm Tucker and less Gallifreyan. It does seem odd that Matt with much less of a Whovian context seemed to inhabit the character rather more than Capaldi who strikes me as approaching it as just another part.
Comments
I didn't like the parts when the Doctor was bickering with Robin in the cell (though 'Hoody' was good) that didn't feel right for this Doctor.
Luckily, Listen is where Capaldi and Moffat absolutely nail it (so I believe...)
Yeah, I enjoyed the episode overall but that scene was painful.
It was unnecessarily silly. I'd have been embarrassed to put my name to some of that dialogue, and feel sorry for Peter and Jenna having to repeat it. Silliness can be fun, but this was just cringeworthy.
The scripts that have been used for the first few episodes haven't given Peter an opportunity to develop who his Doctor actually is, and his portrayal remains uneasy and jarring for me as a result. Deep Breath showed so much promise, but it has to be delivered upon, and nothing I've seen since shows me that.
Was it not the Third Doctor who said that there's no point in being adult if you can't be childish?
No, it was the Fourth Doctor.
But the Third Doctor did say "What's wrong with being childish? I like being childish".
The first episode touched on the new Doctor's egotism, and the second turned on how the Doctor's need to be proved right can overwhelm him. This is just an extension of that, and I think marked a good point of difference between him and his predecessors.
We're only 3 episodes in and one of them was written by Gatiss whose writing I have no intention of disparaging here but well...
Twelve is already a lot harsher then Eleven, we've seen him be very rude to Clara on a number of occasions and he's been very callous about people dying. But he still has the same Doctor essence as all 11 other incarnations.
Moff did say that episode 7 would be where we really saw a shift to darker territory and Capaldi said that the Doctor doesn't really fit into place until the end of the series.
In summary, give him a chance!
As for the 'Darker' Doctor, that may come to pass, Capaldi is only 3 episodes in, and while he hasn't been 'Darker' he has been broodier, grumpier and more argumentative than Doctors 8-11. He's 3 episodes in, with many more left to come, and I imagine after a few more we will see a darker Doctor? Perhaps he becomes a darker Doctor due to part of a storyline or plot.
In my mind its fathomable that Capaldi will become a Doctor that can encompass the previous incumbents, and add his own style to the role. He's the oldest actor to portray the Doctor so there lies a Hartnell reference, some of the lines in the previous episodes have been more Smith-esque(who was heavily influenced by Troughton), there's also no romance from a Doctor which hasn't been seen since McCoy(or Hurt, but then Hurt was a Warrior).
Apart from the fact that the dialogue from the Doctor couldn't have come from Matt at all (having no joy at laughing... 11? Seriously?). And Clara's cool, calm & collected role in it really wasn't suited to the more fiery Amy. And there really was no room for Rory.
Yes, I see your point - the villains in this episode could clearly have been in another series.
The story, however, would be unsuited.
In my opinion it's poor writing if they can't hook the viewer from episode 1. Why should we have to hang around for over half a series waiting for things to improve, settle down and get better? Also it's well known that McCoy was possibly the least liked portrayals of all incarnations of The Doctor so to liken Capaldi to him isn't a good sign. McCoy temporarily lost a lot of fans and is one of the reasons the show fell into decline and went off air for so long.
A bit of silliness or eccentricity is fine but the writing and storylines are bordering on farcical and down right stupid and immature.
Really? I have never seen a poll where Mccoy is the least liked. Ever... Hes always at least two from the bottom, more usually around the middle. McGann is invariably below him, and so is Hartnell. So, don't know where you get that assertion from! A quick google search can prove a different result to your claim.
bill hartnell was quite cantankeous ..... partly cos in real life he was finding it harder to learn and remember the scripts .......
The writing and acting have been absolutely fine. Many viewers have been hooked from episode 1, not all will be. We all have to wait until we see something that we enjoy - for some people that will be episode 1, for some it might be 5 or 6, for others it might never happen.
But should all episodes tickle the interest of a given viewer, or are we expecting that only some will? Prior evidence suggests only some.
I don't think it was that bad. I rather enjoyed it.
I'd actually go as far as saying that Dinosaurs on a Spaceship was sillier, and maybe even The Power of Three.
I've seen lot of people say McCoy is the worst Doctor (I personally quite like him though) and I haven't really seen many people at all say they dislike McGann. Most people have nothing but praise for McGann.
Could you please explain further how you think that Deep Breath and Into the Dalek were aimed at young children and would be more at home on CBBC?
I'm personally not seeing it at all.
Even Matt Smith's first half of his debut season at the time didn't feel "right" at the time (scripts in the vein of the previous incumbent) but on reviewing the episodes a year afterwards it was a lot better than first thought.
I feel this could well be the case for Capaldi however I do still get the impression that the episodes to date are at best "constrained" (don't ask me how as I can't explain fully) but certainly feel that as mentioned elsewhere, that the Dalek episode should have been shown later in the series and as for RoS, that should (in my opinion) be showed once Capaldi is more settled into the role be it in this series or the next.
Yes, three episodes is still too early to judge, but he hasn't "failed" as the Doctor - just been let down by the showrunner in letting poor quality and management decisions affect what could, and most likely, should have been a strong three episode introdution to his portrayal of 'his' Doctor.
I think there's a story to be told with 12. More-so than in recent times. I'm looking forward to seeing how it plays out by the end of the series, and what our new writers bring to the table.
That all said, I have found the opening three episodes of S8 more immediately re-watchable than the last few years. So if and when that lever does get pulled, I'll obviously be hoping for the best
It just happened to played in a funny way. Blame the director if you like but Peter Capaldi and The Doctor are not always going to be played demure or as a completely serious bore.
As I said, a quick google search proved it. First five polls - on well known, well used sites, and fairly recently. I really don't go on the opinions on forums, as they are not representative. And what some people might think of as being obvious, doesn't necessarily translate to the actual outside world.
Also, confirmation bias is heavy in a forum environment.
I like both McGann and McCoy. McCoy was my Doctor growing up, so I think I'm biased in that respect...
But he doesn't. He waves it around and then steps aside and pushes Robin in a river. He doesn't try to slice him up.
Only by definition of using it to defending oneself in a conflict or contest.
But on the main issue I am surprised at how little I like Capaldi's Doctor. I am definitely prepared to warm to him and I confess to being an enormous Matt Smith fan. so vulnerable to charges of bias. Nevertheless, so far I am getting more Malcolm Tucker and less Gallifreyan. It does seem odd that Matt with much less of a Whovian context seemed to inhabit the character rather more than Capaldi who strikes me as approaching it as just another part.