And I would add Andrew Robinson as Garak. Outstanding acting.
In this thread an awful lot of nonsense of a negative nature has been written about DS9. I chose to not to respond. I suppose this counts as some sort of response now.:)
Yup DS9 was somewhat unfairly dismissed as the unpopular middle child of the franchise and for me at least is the best Trek of the lot mainly because of the terriffic cast even the discarded first 2 seasons had some great eps such as Duet,In the Hands of the Prophets,Necessary Evil and many more,oh for a space based show that had the quality DS9 did to be on now.
See, that's the trouble, DS9 had such great peripheral characters that you struggle to remember them all. Disappointing though, as Andrew Robinson created one of the most iconicly devious characters that Trek has ever known. Fantastic.
I'm, with Bester on this as DS9 broke new ground by being set on a space station with the same planet, wormhole every week.
Having another series set on a space station in Babylon 5 forced them to raise their game and so you had the move away from the minutiae of Bajorian Politics with the coming of the Jem'Hadar, the Vorta and the Founders and the Way of the Warrior from Series 4. Would it have been cancelled now ?? Don't think so. Would it have suffered the same fate as Enterprise if it had been in Enterprise's place, quite probably. As what most of you seem to have forgotten is that UPN's demographic had changed from Trek fans to teenage girls and what would have been Season 5 of Enterprise was Season 1 of the Britney and K-Fed Reality show, the world weeps.
UPN was a p1ssant network, and it's heir, the CW, continues to be so. Voyager and Enterprise were largely disappointing supplements to the Trek franchise, but it wouldn't really have made any difference if they weren't, as any show would have struggled significantly on UPN.
I think if DS9 were made now (though in this pseudo universe I'm creating in my head it will be made after Enterprise and Voyager had already happened. Don't question me on this, its just happening, ok? ) then the producers would have more of an eye on the realities of the television industry and would make changes accordingly.
I imagine the Defiant would've been with the station since ep 1.
Major Kira would probably be in a catsuit, and played by Claudia Black....(wouldn't mind....:o )
There'd probably be a race of space vampires and space zombies turning up every few weeks...
Garak would be more of a troubled character having all the Cardassian's behaviour during the occupation weighing heavily upon him, perhaps even wanting redemption through his deeds...
The Enterprise of the day would probably come to the station more....(it was only there once in DS9 episodes wasn't it? )
And the great irony is there'd probably be even more ongoing stories and less standalone episodes since the television market of the moment seems to have swung much towards lengthy plotlines...
I think if DS9 were made now (though in this pseudo universe I'm creating in my head it will be made after Enterprise and Voyager had already happened. Don't question me on this, its just happening, ok? ) then the producers would have more of an eye on the realities of the television industry and would make changes accordingly.
I imagine the Defiant would've been with the station since ep 1.
Major Kira would probably be in a catsuit, and played by Claudia Black....(wouldn't mind....:o )
There'd probably be a race of space vampires and space zombies turning up every few weeks...
Garak would be more of a troubled character having all the Cardassian's behaviour during the occupation weighing heavily upon him, perhaps even wanting redemption through his deeds...
The Enterprise of the day would probably come to the station more....(it was only there once in DS9 episodes wasn't it? )
And the great irony is there'd probably be even more ongoing stories and less standalone episodes since the television market of the moment seems to have swung much towards lengthy plotlines...
I think it could be even better tbh.....:D
This i think is part of the problem for many shows as of late.
Probably not, but I wouldn't mourn it. All the Star Trek series have been pretty appalling - a miasma of recondite technobabble beloved of middle-aged nerds, utterly abject excuses for acting, and low production that has consistently failed to stand the test of time. I've tried to get into the various Trek series in the past, but the supposed depth of the themes always seems specious, the cultures (despite their centrality) one-dimensional, the characters entirely unsympathetic.
Yet despite my damning indictment on the franchise, I'd actually welcome a new series. IF AND ONLY IF, the writers broadened their horizons and took their cues from more accomplished sci-fi series since. In particular, I'm thinking of Battlestar Galactica here, which succeeded in boldly going where no sci-fi series has gone before - in the exploration of humanity.
If they could blend that with one of the strengths of the original series - the quite innovative scientific element (the sequels unfortunately tended to tread old ground) - now that would be a television show worth getting excited about.
See, that's the trouble, DS9 had such great peripheral characters that you struggle to remember them all. Disappointing though, as Andrew Robinson created one of the most iconicly devious characters that Trek has ever known. Fantastic.
Garak; Dukat; Weyoun; Damar; Kai Winn; Martok; Female Changeling; Kor.......what a cast, what a show!
Garak; Dukat; Weyoun; Damar; Kai Winn; Martok; Female Changeling; Kor.......what a cast, what a show!
Morn, Brunt, Zek, Moogi etc etc etc
Personally, I never thought that Casey Biggs got the credit he deserved for Damar. He was utterly brilliant in the final episodes when Damar became the defacto leader of the resistance.
I'd agree for the most part, although personally, I thought that DS9's worked, despite the fact that large parts of that were being progressed on the fly.
To a lesser extent, Jeremiah's arc worked, as did Carnivale's.
B5's still the daddy though.
Although I love DS9 now, the main prob is there are too many "trekky" type single episodes rather than arc.
particularly 90% of ferengi episodes and all the "enhanced human" ones
In B5 even the single episodes continued the main arc
Although I love DS9 now, the main prob is there are too many "trekky" type single episodes rather than arc.
particularly 90% of ferengi episodes and all the "enhanced human" ones
In B5 even the single episodes continued the main arc
Well it was Star Trek, they were never going to completely leave the standalone episodes alone.
To be fair though, if they had have done that then we'd have missed out on stuff like The Visitor and Far Beyond the Stars, which are some of the best one-off episodes that Star Trek has ever done.
The Ferengi episodes are hit and miss, but some of them are brilliant fun. I was never a massive fan of the Ferengi as they're largely one dimensional, but in certain types of story they really work.
For Star Trek I'd say that they trod a fine line between the arc and standalones, and for Trek, probably just about got it right.
B5 was a different breed, it really was, as described, a novel for television. Sad to think that we'll likely never see its like again.
Well it was Star Trek, they were never going to completely leave the standalone episodes alone.
To be fair though, if they had have done that then we'd have missed out on stuff like The Visitor and Far Beyond the Stars, which are some of the best one-off episodes that Star Trek has ever done.
The Ferengi episodes are hit and miss, but some of them are brilliant fun. I was never a massive fan of the Ferengi as they're largely one dimensional, but in certain types of story they really work.
For Star Trek I'd say that they trod a fine line between the arc and standalones, and for Trek, probably just about got it right.
B5 was a different breed, it really was, as described, a novel for television. Sad to think that we'll likely never see its like again.
The episodes centered around quark/rom on the station were fine - it was just when when zek,moogi,brant etc made an appearance when I cringed
Even if we just limited that argument to just the Star Trek franchise, that's not true. TOS and TNG were an examination of issues through the vehicle of exploration - DS9 was far more static in nature, which sacrificed the spirit of adventure but allowed for a different perspective that wasn't possible in the earlier series.
DS9 also went after certain subjects that Trek had traditionally shied away from, ie. religion, politics etc.
Let's be fair, DS9 was the last time Star Trek was great (on TV). It was the last time that they did actually try something different, It wasn't just a rehash of TNG or TOS,
It had the most serialised nature of any of the Trek shows, and whilst it suffers in comparison to the superior B5, it was still a relatively decent effort. However, that shouldn't take away from the fact that the show was also capable of producing some excellent standalone episodes. Anyone who can't acknowledge the brilliance of episodes like Far Beyond the Stars, The Visitor or In the Pale Moonlight, they're just deluding themselves.
Re the cast, again, disagree entirely. DS9 had the most balanced cast of any of the shows. Was AB great? No, not great, certainly doesn't have the gravitas of Stewart, or the charisma of Shatner, but then again he's p1sses all over Mulgrew and Bakula from a great height.
Cirroc Lofton/Jake Sisko - compare and contrast with Wesley Crusher - no contest.
Rene Auberjonois, Armin Shimmerman, Colm Meaney, all fantastic. Louise Fletcher's already been mentioned, but then you also have Wallace Shawn, Marc Alaimo and Jeff Combes.
Again, let's be fair, most of the peripheral characters from DS9 are far better than the regular Voyager and Enterprise casts.
Its also quite fun when recurring actors from one show pop up in the other, and it takes about five mins to work out which role it was (alien makeup etc)
Comments
Yup DS9 was somewhat unfairly dismissed as the unpopular middle child of the franchise and for me at least is the best Trek of the lot mainly because of the terriffic cast even the discarded first 2 seasons had some great eps such as Duet,In the Hands of the Prophets,Necessary Evil and many more,oh for a space based show that had the quality DS9 did to be on now.
See, that's the trouble, DS9 had such great peripheral characters that you struggle to remember them all. Disappointing though, as Andrew Robinson created one of the most iconicly devious characters that Trek has ever known. Fantastic.
Having another series set on a space station in Babylon 5 forced them to raise their game and so you had the move away from the minutiae of Bajorian Politics with the coming of the Jem'Hadar, the Vorta and the Founders and the Way of the Warrior from Series 4. Would it have been cancelled now ?? Don't think so. Would it have suffered the same fate as Enterprise if it had been in Enterprise's place, quite probably. As what most of you seem to have forgotten is that UPN's demographic had changed from Trek fans to teenage girls and what would have been Season 5 of Enterprise was Season 1 of the Britney and K-Fed Reality show, the world weeps.
I imagine the Defiant would've been with the station since ep 1.
Major Kira would probably be in a catsuit, and played by Claudia Black....(wouldn't mind....:o )
There'd probably be a race of space vampires and space zombies turning up every few weeks...
Garak would be more of a troubled character having all the Cardassian's behaviour during the occupation weighing heavily upon him, perhaps even wanting redemption through his deeds...
The Enterprise of the day would probably come to the station more....(it was only there once in DS9 episodes wasn't it? )
And the great irony is there'd probably be even more ongoing stories and less standalone episodes since the television market of the moment seems to have swung much towards lengthy plotlines...
I think it could be even better tbh.....:D
This i think is part of the problem for many shows as of late.
Yet despite my damning indictment on the franchise, I'd actually welcome a new series. IF AND ONLY IF, the writers broadened their horizons and took their cues from more accomplished sci-fi series since. In particular, I'm thinking of Battlestar Galactica here, which succeeded in boldly going where no sci-fi series has gone before - in the exploration of humanity.
If they could blend that with one of the strengths of the original series - the quite innovative scientific element (the sequels unfortunately tended to tread old ground) - now that would be a television show worth getting excited about.
Garak; Dukat; Weyoun; Damar; Kai Winn; Martok; Female Changeling; Kor.......what a cast, what a show!
Morn, Brunt, Zek, Moogi etc etc etc
Personally, I never thought that Casey Biggs got the credit he deserved for Damar. He was utterly brilliant in the final episodes when Damar became the defacto leader of the resistance.
Although I love DS9 now, the main prob is there are too many "trekky" type single episodes rather than arc.
particularly 90% of ferengi episodes and all the "enhanced human" ones
In B5 even the single episodes continued the main arc
Well it was Star Trek, they were never going to completely leave the standalone episodes alone.
To be fair though, if they had have done that then we'd have missed out on stuff like The Visitor and Far Beyond the Stars, which are some of the best one-off episodes that Star Trek has ever done.
The Ferengi episodes are hit and miss, but some of them are brilliant fun. I was never a massive fan of the Ferengi as they're largely one dimensional, but in certain types of story they really work.
For Star Trek I'd say that they trod a fine line between the arc and standalones, and for Trek, probably just about got it right.
B5 was a different breed, it really was, as described, a novel for television. Sad to think that we'll likely never see its like again.
The episodes centered around quark/rom on the station were fine - it was just when when zek,moogi,brant etc made an appearance when I cringed
Its also quite fun when recurring actors from one show pop up in the other, and it takes about five mins to work out which role it was (alien makeup etc)