Actually it is. I appears around 720,000 believe violence can be acceptable in response to cartoons. How and where the violence is used is up to the individual but the figure is sound.
You are trying very very very hard Si_crewe to make these figures palatable for your own sensibilities and almost trying to will the figures more acceptable to you. Perhaps when you post your apology for the figures, you feel you are making the figures less impressive. I can tell you as an outsider to your thoughts, it is not working at all.
It'd probably help avoid confusion if you stuck to referring to percentages in the same way that the survey does.
The question asking people's opinion on "Organisations which publish images of the prophet deserve to be attacked" yields an unambiguous response of 11% in agreement - which is certainly worrying enough by itself.
Perhaps you could tell me which question leads you to believe that 720k Muslims are okay with the idea of shooting cartoonists?
Asked if acts of violence against those who publish images of the Prophet Muhammad can "never be justified", 68% agreed that such violence was never justifiable.
But 24% disagreed with the statement, while the rest replied "don't know" or refused to answer.
27% said they could sympathize with the motives of the terrorists who committed the Charlie Hebdo attack.
24% and 27% is nothing to worry about however, a tiny minority. There are only about 3 million UK muslims, so that means there are only about 720,000 UK muslims who believe violence can be justifiable against those who publish cartoons of the Prophet.
It'd probably help avoid confusion if you stuck to referring to percentages in the same way that the survey does.
The question asking people's opinion on "Organisations which publish images of the prophet deserve to be attacked" yields an unambiguous response of 11% in agreement - which is certainly worrying enough by itself.
Perhaps you could tell me which question leads you to believe that 720k Muslims are okay with the idea of shooting cartoonists?
It was very clear Si_crewe and explained very clearly.
24% exactly - roughly 720,000 UK muslims, believe violence can be acceptable in response to cartoons. How and where the violence is used is up to the individual but the figure is sound. Some of the 720,000 may believe the Paris shootings were too much for example and that a less murderous attack would be acceptable. But alas we are picking at hairs for your sensibilities again aren't we?
These figures are disgrace although they do match previous polls. In 2006, 78% of British Muslims polled supported punishing the publishers of Muhammad cartoons - how however, was not discussed.
Whatever the real number, I think it's clear that it's far higher than the 186 you estimated earlier in the thread about the three girls who recently went to Syria.
Having many thousands of Muslim IS sympathisers, and hundreds of thousands who sympathise with their motives among us, should be a matter of great concern for the rest of us, including Muslims. Government needs to act.
It's a little disingenuous to suggest that everybody who sympathises with the motives behind acts carried out by extremists suggests that number of people are actually sympathetic to that cause.
I mean, speaking as an English Protestant (by birth if not faith) who was actually in the Brit' army at the time, even I can sympathise with the motives behind IRA attacks even though I'd utterly condemn the violence itself.
Seems like a similar thing here.
The vast majority of Muslims probably are pissed-off with insults to their faith but, just like other religions, they shrug their shoulders and get on with their lives.
It doesn't mean they're actually supportive of the jihadi nutcases.
The vast majority of Muslims probably are pissed-off with insults to their faith but, just like other religions, they shrug their shoulders and get on with their lives.
It doesn't mean they're actually supportive of the jihadi nutcases.
Again, that is being disingenuous. 720,000 UK muslims is a significant amount that believe violence can be acceptable over a cartoon.
It was very clear Si_crewe and explained very clearly.
24% exactly - roughly 720,000 UK muslims, believe violence can be acceptable in response to cartoons. How and where the violence is used is up to the individual but the figure is sound. Some of the 720,000 may believe the Paris shootings were too much for example and that a less murderous attack would be acceptable. But alas we are picking at hairs for your sensibilities again aren't we?
These figures are disgrace although they do match previous polls. In 2006, 78% of British Muslims polled supported punishing the publishers of Muhammad cartoons - how however, was not discussed.
Yeah, like I said, it'd be useful if you'd state which question leads you to that understanding.
As far as I can see, the 2 questions with corresponding results are the one which ask about the motives and the one which asks if violence can ever be justified and, in the latter case, I suspect that a number of people realise that, theoretically, a situation could arise where it might be justified.
This is what happened the last time they asked Muslims this question and the response was widely misinterpreted then if I recall correctly.
It's like asking UK citizens "Do you support our boys in [insert hotzone here]?"
I hope you're right about the younger Muslims.
I would say if anything, the opposite is true. You only had to listen to Sima Kotecha's report on the BBC R4 Today program to hear that young muslims feel isolated.
"A student at Bradford College, Samaia Aslal, told the BBC that politicians and the media perpetuated a dehumanised image of Muslims, which opens them up to all forms of attack.
She said: "It is up to the rest of British society to stop looking at us as some kind of threat, to accept us.
"To not always ask us how British we feel, that's as stupid as asking 'how do you feel about your red hair today?'.
"To ask this whilst alienating us, spying on us, making us feel like we don't fit in."
Yeah, like I said, it'd be useful if you'd state which question leads you to that understanding.
As far as I can see, the 2 questions with corresponding results are the one which ask about the motives and the one which asks if violence can ever be justified and, in the latter case, I suspect that a number of people realise that, theoretically, a situation could arise where it might be justified.
Yes, 720,000 UK muslims believe violence can be justified over a cartoon (specitifically an image of Mohammed). How and where the violence takes place was not explored.
As far as I can see, the 2 questions with corresponding results are the one which ask about the motives and the one which asks if violence can ever be justified and, in the latter case, I suspect that a number of people realise that, theoretically, a situation could arise where it might be justified.
I'm curious to hear a hypothetical situation where violence as a response to the publishing of an image of Muhammad would be justified...
It already happened, unless you missed the Paris shootings.
"The men opened fire and killed the editor's police bodyguard, Franck Brinsolaro, before asking for editor Stephane Charbonnier, known as Charb, and other four cartoonists by name and killing them, along with three other editorial staff and a guest attending the meeting.
Witnesses said they had heard the gunmen shouting "We have avenged the Prophet Muhammad" and "God is Great" in Arabic while calling out the names of the journalists."
IIRC, the poll in question said that 27% of Muslims have some sympathy for the motives behind the attacks.
It doesn't say that number of people agree with the attacks, themselves.
There is a question which specifically asked about whether the attacks were warranted and, apparently, 11% of respondents said they thought the were.
On the bright side, it seems that's a view most popular with the older generations which, at least, suggests that younger Muslims are getting more moderate.
Nope, you're wrong.
According to the BBC website:
BBC Radio 4 Today Muslim Poll
Poll of 1,000 Muslims in Britain for BBC Radio 4 Today
More than two in five (46%) feel that being a Muslim in Britain is difficult due to prejudice against Islam.
Almost all Muslims living in Britain feel a loyalty to the country (95%). Just 6% say they feel a disloyalty.
Nine in ten (93%) British Muslims believe that Muslims in Britain should always obey British laws.
One in four (27%) British Muslims say they have some sympathy for the motives behind the attacks on Charlie Hebdo in Paris. However, two thirds (68%) say acts of violence against those who publish images of the Prophet can never be justified while a quarter (24%) disagree.
Muslim women are more likely than men to feel unsafe in Britain.
One in nine (11%) British Muslims feel sympathetic towards people who want to fight against western interests while 85% do not.
Half (49%) believe Muslim clerics preaching that violence against the west can be justified are out of touch with mainstream Muslim opinion, while 45% disagree.
The OP's figure is correct. 24% of the Muslims polled believed that violence against those who publish images of the Prophet can be justified.
It's a little disingenuous to suggest that everybody who sympathises with the motives behind acts carried out by extremists suggests that number of people are actually sympathetic to that cause.
I mean, speaking as an English Protestant (by birth if not faith) who was actually in the Brit' army at the time, even I can sympathise with the motives behind IRA attacks even though I'd utterly condemn the violence itself.
Seems like a similar thing here.
The vast majority of Muslims probably are pissed-off with insults to their faith but, just like other religions, they shrug their shoulders and get on with their lives.
It doesn't mean they're actually supportive of the jihadi nutcases.
Well the terrorists' stated motives IIRC were that those who create images of the prophet must be eliminated, and that's enough for me. Alternatively, to support the causes of murderous terrorist groups in Yemen and elsewhere. But either way, a goodly proportion of the 700K will be IS sympathisers - many thousands in fact - which is why Government must act.
I'm curious to hear a hypothetical situation where violence as a response to the publishing of an image of Muhammad would be justified...
I'm thinking of a situation where there IS a lot of overt hostility toward Muslims and, eventually, they might decide they've had enough.
To be clear, I'm not saying I think that is likely to happen but, judging from some of the other questions in that survey (35% of Muslims feeling that British people don't trust them with the younger generations showing a higher percentage and 46% thinking that Britain is becoming less tolerant of Muslims), I can understand why a lot of Muslims might envisage a future where there's overt hostility at a level which might justify violence.
Yeah, like I said, it'd be useful if you'd state which question leads you to that understanding.
As far as I can see, the 2 questions with corresponding results are the one which ask about the motives and the one which asks if violence can ever be justified and, in the latter case, I suspect that a number of people realise that, theoretically, a situation could arise where it might be justified.
Can you think of any? I've been racking my tiny brain and can't come up with a hypothetical situation where violence against someone publishing a cartoon could be justified.
That's why the news over here was so hesitant about showing it in case some Muslim hardliner stormed in with a gun and started shooting innocent people.
Can you think of any? I've been racking my tiny brain and can't come up with a hypothetical situation where violence against someone publishing a cartoon could be justified.
I'm thinking of a situation where there IS a lot of overt hostility toward Muslims and, eventually, they might decide they've had enough.
To be clear, I'm not saying I think that is likely to happen but, judging from some of the other questions in that survey (35% of Muslims feeling that British people don't trust them with the younger generations showing a higher percentage and 46% thinking that Britain is becoming less tolerant of Muslims), I can understand why a lot of Muslims might envisage a future where there's overt hostility at a level which might justify violence.
I think in that case you are operating far outside the parameters of the question itself, which is limited strictly to the publishing of images of Muhammad. 24% of Muslims in Britain think violence can indeed be a justifiable response to that, which should worry any right-minded person, not prompt them into some feat of mental acrobatics playing it down.
I would say if anything, the opposite is true. You only had to listen to Sima Kotecha's report on the BBC R4 Today program to hear that young muslims feel isolated.
"A student at Bradford College, Samaia Aslal, told the BBC that politicians and the media perpetuated a dehumanised image of Muslims, which opens them up to all forms of attack.
She said: "It is up to the rest of British society to stop looking at us as some kind of threat, to accept us.
"To not always ask us how British we feel, that's as stupid as asking 'how do you feel about your red hair today?'.
"To ask this whilst alienating us, spying on us, making us feel like we don't fit in."
I heard the piece on Today, and as usual, it was everyone else's attitude. Nothing to do with poor, oppressed Muslims of course. As always, it's a one-way-street.
Young Muslims are definitely more stroppy than their parents and certainly their grandparents.
The BBC spin on this poll is laughable, but it's the only way they know. Their home affairs editor, Mark Easton, is fond of penning polemical articles such as his famous "Immigration - A Story Of Success" nonsense of a while back. It is the pervading view of the Corporation, and it will always spin multiculturalism as positively as it can. I do detect a change of mood amongst the public, however. There seems to be anecdotal evidence on here, and elsewhere (even The Guardian comments) that even diehard liberals are losing patience.
Civil War is too strong, but I do foresee more conflict coming. No wonder the Beeb is panicking. Patronising it's audience won't help.
Asked if acts of violence against those who publish images of the Prophet Muhammad can "never be justified", 68% agreed that such violence was never justifiable.
But 24% disagreed with the statement, while the rest replied "don't know" or refused to answer.
27% said they could sympathize with the motives of the terrorists who committed the Charlie Hebdo attack.
24% and 27% is nothing to worry about however, a tiny minority. There are only about 3 million UK muslims, so that means there are only about 720,000 UK muslims who believe violence can be justifiable against those who publish cartoons of the Prophet.
thankfully UK got rid of a stupid blasphemy laws a long time ago, and we are free to say whatever we want about religion luckily, as this is a democracy as it should befree to say what you want about religion.
I think in that case you are operating far outside the parameters of the question itself, which is limited strictly to the publishing of images of Muhammad. 24% of Muslims in Britain think violence can indeed be a justifiable response to that, which should worry any right-minded person, not prompt them into some feat of mental acrobatics playing it down.
Possibly so but I can't help thinking that might be the sort of situation people might have in mind when they're asked to consider if violence might ever be justified.
Obviously, the "correct" answer is "never" but, if we're honest, I'm sure we can all think of situations where it might be.
Possibly so but I can't help thinking that might be the sort of situation people might have in mind when they're asked to consider if violence might ever be justified.
Obviously, the "correct" answer is "never" but, if we're honest, I'm sure we can all think of situations where it might be.
No. You're repeatedly leaving out the important qualifier "against those who publish images of the Prophet" which, being this is a simple yes/no agree/disagree opinion poll, clearly means as a direct response to said publishing. It's not intended for those polled to consider whether maybe the publisher would then go on to commit further acts which would warrant violence and I don't believe for a second a single person answering thought it might be.
Comments
It'd probably help avoid confusion if you stuck to referring to percentages in the same way that the survey does.
The question asking people's opinion on "Organisations which publish images of the prophet deserve to be attacked" yields an unambiguous response of 11% in agreement - which is certainly worrying enough by itself.
Perhaps you could tell me which question leads you to believe that 720k Muslims are okay with the idea of shooting cartoonists?
The Nazi's were a minority.
It was very clear Si_crewe and explained very clearly.
24% exactly - roughly 720,000 UK muslims, believe violence can be acceptable in response to cartoons. How and where the violence is used is up to the individual but the figure is sound. Some of the 720,000 may believe the Paris shootings were too much for example and that a less murderous attack would be acceptable. But alas we are picking at hairs for your sensibilities again aren't we?
These figures are disgrace although they do match previous polls. In 2006, 78% of British Muslims polled supported punishing the publishers of Muhammad cartoons - how however, was not discussed.
It's a little disingenuous to suggest that everybody who sympathises with the motives behind acts carried out by extremists suggests that number of people are actually sympathetic to that cause.
I mean, speaking as an English Protestant (by birth if not faith) who was actually in the Brit' army at the time, even I can sympathise with the motives behind IRA attacks even though I'd utterly condemn the violence itself.
Seems like a similar thing here.
The vast majority of Muslims probably are pissed-off with insults to their faith but, just like other religions, they shrug their shoulders and get on with their lives.
It doesn't mean they're actually supportive of the jihadi nutcases.
Again, that is being disingenuous. 720,000 UK muslims is a significant amount that believe violence can be acceptable over a cartoon.
Yeah, like I said, it'd be useful if you'd state which question leads you to that understanding.
As far as I can see, the 2 questions with corresponding results are the one which ask about the motives and the one which asks if violence can ever be justified and, in the latter case, I suspect that a number of people realise that, theoretically, a situation could arise where it might be justified.
I would say if anything, the opposite is true. You only had to listen to Sima Kotecha's report on the BBC R4 Today program to hear that young muslims feel isolated.
"A student at Bradford College, Samaia Aslal, told the BBC that politicians and the media perpetuated a dehumanised image of Muslims, which opens them up to all forms of attack.
She said: "It is up to the rest of British society to stop looking at us as some kind of threat, to accept us.
"To not always ask us how British we feel, that's as stupid as asking 'how do you feel about your red hair today?'.
"To ask this whilst alienating us, spying on us, making us feel like we don't fit in."
Yes, 720,000 UK muslims believe violence can be justified over a cartoon (specitifically an image of Mohammed). How and where the violence takes place was not explored.
I'm curious to hear a hypothetical situation where violence as a response to the publishing of an image of Muhammad would be justified...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-30708237
It already happened, unless you missed the Paris shootings.
"The men opened fire and killed the editor's police bodyguard, Franck Brinsolaro, before asking for editor Stephane Charbonnier, known as Charb, and other four cartoonists by name and killing them, along with three other editorial staff and a guest attending the meeting.
Witnesses said they had heard the gunmen shouting "We have avenged the Prophet Muhammad" and "God is Great" in Arabic while calling out the names of the journalists."
Nope, you're wrong.
According to the BBC website:
The OP's figure is correct. 24% of the Muslims polled believed that violence against those who publish images of the Prophet can be justified.
Well the terrorists' stated motives IIRC were that those who create images of the prophet must be eliminated, and that's enough for me. Alternatively, to support the causes of murderous terrorist groups in Yemen and elsewhere. But either way, a goodly proportion of the 700K will be IS sympathisers - many thousands in fact - which is why Government must act.
I'm thinking of a situation where there IS a lot of overt hostility toward Muslims and, eventually, they might decide they've had enough.
To be clear, I'm not saying I think that is likely to happen but, judging from some of the other questions in that survey (35% of Muslims feeling that British people don't trust them with the younger generations showing a higher percentage and 46% thinking that Britain is becoming less tolerant of Muslims), I can understand why a lot of Muslims might envisage a future where there's overt hostility at a level which might justify violence.
Yes but, as I've just finished saying, that isn't in response to the current situation.
It's a response to a question asking whether violence might ever be justified.
Can you think of any? I've been racking my tiny brain and can't come up with a hypothetical situation where violence against someone publishing a cartoon could be justified.
Fill your boots.
Just make sure you've got the majority of society on your side.
Germany in the late 1930s?
http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jewish-world-news/1.643521
"There are many more peace mongers than warmongers," Abdullah said as organizers and Jewish community leaders stood side by side.
I heard the piece on Today, and as usual, it was everyone else's attitude. Nothing to do with poor, oppressed Muslims of course. As always, it's a one-way-street.
Young Muslims are definitely more stroppy than their parents and certainly their grandparents.
The BBC spin on this poll is laughable, but it's the only way they know. Their home affairs editor, Mark Easton, is fond of penning polemical articles such as his famous "Immigration - A Story Of Success" nonsense of a while back. It is the pervading view of the Corporation, and it will always spin multiculturalism as positively as it can. I do detect a change of mood amongst the public, however. There seems to be anecdotal evidence on here, and elsewhere (even The Guardian comments) that even diehard liberals are losing patience.
Civil War is too strong, but I do foresee more conflict coming. No wonder the Beeb is panicking. Patronising it's audience won't help.
thankfully UK got rid of a stupid blasphemy laws a long time ago, and we are free to say whatever we want about religion luckily, as this is a democracy as it should befree to say what you want about religion.
Possibly so but I can't help thinking that might be the sort of situation people might have in mind when they're asked to consider if violence might ever be justified.
Obviously, the "correct" answer is "never" but, if we're honest, I'm sure we can all think of situations where it might be.
Tower Hamlets, Bethnal Green, Newham, Barking