After all, there is no reason at the moment for anyone to visit Leicester as it's a complete dump[/url]
Well done, sire. You have proved yourself to be an utmost expert of the most useful variety, one which can extract over 200 pages of the utmostly useful postings. On this, I congratulate you, you most tuckiest of fards.
True. But... the re-interment was always going to say more about us as a culture, than it was ever going to say about 15thC England. We're not spiritual; we're venal, have no real sense of our selves anymore, we're crass, more interested in the bottom line, etc etc.
I don't think there's anything venal or crass in thinking that Richard III was just a human being and not some demi-god with blue blood flowing through his veins.
If Kapellmeister wants to apply medieval standards to how we live today I wonder how exactly he'd fare as a feudal homosexual villein.
I don't think there's anything venal or crass in thinking that Richard III was just a human being and not some demi-god with blue blood flowing through his veins.
If Kapellmeister wants to apply medieval standards to how we live today I wonder how exactly he'd fare as a feudal homosexual villein.
I could sort of understand this 'he was an anointed king' thing, if it wasn't for the fact that our present 'annointed' monarch hadn't been given quite so much stick for not entering the fray as to where her predecessor should go. I've even seen some people commenting that they were praying that there'd be a different monarch on the throne before the reinterment, in hope that the new one would intervene!
Given that a large proportion of the population are (at best) indifferent to monarchy and many don't believe in God, the 'anointed king' card isn't going to hold much sway with many people.
Harald Hardrada was killed by King Harold's army at Stamford Bridge on 25th September 1066.
My apologies, I got the Harolds mixed up. Simple error, that's all, my point still stands. William left the bodies of the fallen (including Harold) on the battlefield to rot for several weeks. Then his conscience led him to have them collected and given dignified burial.
That was the point I was trying to make, before 'Harold' confused me!
It is interesting that, when pressed on something, you always say the information is either on a private site (which you are not at liberty to reveal) or, as in this case, you are worried about a breach of this historian's privacy.
I suggest you only post about things you can back up, rather than post stuff and then be coy about any evidence.......
You are welcome to join the Facebook pages for yourself, but the ones where the bulk of the campaign work is being done are private, to protect the members from the abuse that's been heaped on the campaigners over the last two years.
I post everything I have permission to post, and several members of the campiagn read this thread. If they want to reveal who they are, they will do. But it would be wrong of me to repost their comments without their permission, or share with you their work, particularly if it's still ongoing.
If you choose not to believe me, that's up to you. But I'm telling you the truth.
York hasn't given up hope through the centuries, they tried several times to repair Richard's reputation, he's honoured throughout the county, and has been since he was Lord of the North. The Minster still holds services for him, and Middleham has an annual celebration of him. He's been remembered and honoured in Sherrif Hutton, Scarborough, and all over the county, for hundreds of years.
If you did a bit of searching, you can find dozens of examples of how Yorkshire has stayed loyal, and not given up on Richard.
Everyone involved agrees there is a finality to the Leicester resting place, including the church, the ministry, and the judges of the JR who even went as far as noting this in a (rare) postscript to their considerations.
Can't see the connection with Windsor other than it being a royal palace.
York minster don't want him and have blessed a Leicester reinterment.
Westminster can't have him as they have ruled against further reinterments.
The vast majority of Ricardians haven't agreed, neither have most historians, and descendants. The church isn't arguing because they don't want to become unseemly, not because they specifically agree.
And your repeating that the Minster doesn't want him, doesn't make it true. The campaign have had a number of letters indicating otherwise, it seems to be Dean Faull who doesn't want him, not everyone at the Minster. And they would accept him if he was brought back to Yorkshire, so whether they actually want him or not is irrelevant.
By the same token, Leicester Cathedral doesn't seem to want him, just the revenue and prestige he'll supposedly bring to them. They treat him with disrespect, are contemptuous of his life and reputation, and didn't even want to take up space with a proper tomb. Now the ugly block they're going to build shows even more disrespect. Their determination is to make Richard's reburial all about them, not about him, which suggests that they don't like him at all.
So say that Leicester had a fine gothic cathedral (like, say, Lincoln) you would be perfectly happy for the remains to be reinterred there?
Leicester could have the most beautiful and magnificent cathedral in the world, and it would still be morally wrong to bury him there. Because it isn't where he wanted to be.
As for making money from tourism - that is a good thing both for the city and its people. It may have escaped your notice, Kapel, but across the world cities, towns, villages, regions, countries - all of them endeavour to maximise their tourist revenue. It is a fact of life. Don't pretend that York would not have capitalised on Richard's reburial, if the decision had gone the other way. |f you think that, you are very naive.
Leicester supporters keep assuming that what they think and would do is also what York supporters would think and do. No, York wouldn't take advantage of the reburial to make money, any income would have been incidental. The primary focus would be on Richard, and on doing what was fitting and appropriate, and most respectful for the King. Richard is loved and respected in Yorkshire, he's just a cash cow to Leicestershire.
Leicester won't make any money from Richard long-term, and not as much as they expect short-term. The only people who would come to see where he was found are Ricardians, and Leicester's treatment of Richard has angered too many of them.
Yes, but in my opinion the law has been upheld, the licence issued correctly and the reburial will go ahead. On that basis, it is the right thing. Therefore the tourism element is a good thing.
The law can't have been upheld, because there's no law covering this unique situation - where to rebury a lost King of England. So it can't be the right thing, on that basis alone.
His lifetime connections with various and numerous places don't pin him down to one particular alternative burial destination, and we don't know what his wishes were regarding burial location.
Most of his life connects him with Yorkshire, beyond everywhere else. Lots of places within, but the whole county was very much favoured by Richard, and his colossal chantry pins his burial wishes down to York.
The campaign is not finished. Neither is this issue, it could go on for years. Thousands of people won't stop until Richard is back in York, where he wanted to be.
My apologies, I got the Harolds mixed up. Simple error, that's all, my point still stands. William left the bodies of the fallen (including Harold) on the battlefield to rot for several weeks. Then his conscience led him to have them collected and given dignified burial.
That was the point I was trying to make, before 'Harold' confused me!
You are welcome to join the Facebook pages for yourself, but the ones where the bulk of the campaign work is being done are private, to protect the members from the abuse that's been heaped on the campaigners over the last two years.
Have you read the abuse that has been heaped on Leicester and its institutions? Even today, there are several sites which are full of people who seem to be in competition to find the most degrading thing they can think of to say about the place and all associated with it.
I post everything I have permission to post, and several members of the campiagn read this thread. If they want to reveal who they are, they will do. But it would be wrong of me to repost their comments without their permission, or share with you their work, particularly if it's still ongoing.
If you choose not to believe me, that's up to you. But I'm telling you the truth.
York hasn't given up hope through the centuries, they tried several times to repair Richard's reputation, he's honoured throughout the county, and has been since he was Lord of the North. The Minster still holds services for him, and Middleham has an annual celebration of him. He's been remembered and honoured in Sherrif Hutton, Scarborough, and all over the county, for hundreds of years.
If you did a bit of searching, you can find dozens of examples of how Yorkshire has stayed loyal, and not given up on Richard.
No one has ever suggested that there are not sites in the north associated with Richard. The only dispute is the pro-Yorkers' insistence that he wanted to be buried in York Minister which is an inferred assumption and not a fact.
His story has far from finished. If it had, we wouldn't be discussing this now.
The vast majority of Ricardians haven't agreed, neither have most historians, and descendants. The church isn't arguing because they don't want to become unseemly, not because they specifically agree.
And your repeating that the Minster doesn't want him, doesn't make it true. The campaign have had a number of letters indicating otherwise, it seems to be Dean Faull who doesn't want him, not everyone at the Minster. And they would accept him if he was brought back to Yorkshire, so whether they actually want him or not is irrelevant.
By the same token, Leicester Cathedral doesn't seem to want him, just the revenue and prestige he'll supposedly bring to them. They treat him with disrespect, are contemptuous of his life and reputation, and didn't even want to take up space with a proper tomb. Now the ugly block they're going to build shows even more disrespect. Their determination is to make Richard's reburial all about them, not about him, which suggests that they don't like him at all.
That is your interpretation, that doesn't make it true, simply an opinion.
Leicester could have the most beautiful and magnificent cathedral in the world, and it would still be morally wrong to bury him there. Because it isn't where he wanted to be.
Leicester supporters keep assuming that what they think and would do is also what York supporters would think and do. No, York wouldn't take advantage of the reburial to make money, any income would have been incidental. The primary focus would be on Richard, and on doing what was fitting and appropriate, and most respectful for the King. Richard is loved and respected in Yorkshire, he's just a cash cow to Leicestershire.
The idea that York and York Minster is not interested in tourism must come as a great surprise to the Tourism officers in those places. See the latest gleeful handrubbing over the dosh brought to Yorkshire by the Tour de France.
Leicester won't make any money from Richard long-term, and not as much as they expect short-term. The only people who would come to see where he was found are Ricardians, and Leicester's treatment of Richard has angered too many of them.
Strangely (and I speak as a Ricardian with links to many sites and groups) the vitriol continuing to be spewed forth on open sites by the pro-Yorkers is starting to have the effect of turning more people towards Leicester.
The law can't have been upheld, because there's no law covering this unique situation - where to rebury a lost King of England. So it can't be the right thing, on that basis alone.
Again, you seem to have a different opinion to three High Court Judges - who might be expected to know what they are talking about.
Most of his life connects him with Yorkshire, beyond everywhere else. Lots of places within, but the whole county was very much favoured by Richard, and his colossal chantry pins his burial wishes down to York.
No it doesn't - as has been discussed endlessly.
The campaign is not finished. Neither is this issue, it could go on for years. Thousands of people won't stop until Richard is back in York, where he wanted to be.
There are millions of people who have no interest in this matter. The constant invoking of petitions and publicity stunts like writing to everyone in Parliament about the matter is a great turn off. All it does, sadly, is reinforce the view that anyone interested in Richard III and his life and times are fruit cakes.
Leicester won't make any money from Richard long-term, and not as much as they expect short-term. The only people who would come to see where he was found are Ricardians, and Leicester's treatment of Richard has angered too many of them.
Do we know where the remains are at the moment? I'm presuming they're still in a shoe box on a shelf at the university? Surely by now they should've been transferred to a more suitable location?
A ridiculous question as he is not going to be buried there.
Of course not. But if it had been 'the nearest consecrated ground' to Greyfriars then he might well have been buried there. If 'one House of God is as good as another', if the building itself is irrelevant, then what objection would you have? I can only assume you'd have no objection, true?
You know it isn't and that is why you won't answer it
The parliament that passed the Act of Attainder against Richard III didn't convene until 7th November 1485. Presumably Richard III had been buried long before then.
It doesn't look like it could house a tomb to me, without impinging on the space in quite a major way.
I'd say yes, but only if a bigger space at a bigger church / cathedral in the parish were unavailable.
It's irrelevant anyway as he is not going to that church. He's being buried at St Martin's cathedral church in Leicester
It doesn't look like it could house a tomb to me, without impinging on the space in quite a major way. I'd say yes, but only if a bigger space at a bigger church / cathedral in the parish were unavailable.
It's irrelevant anyway as he is not going to that church. He's being buried at St Martin's cathedral church in Leicester
Comments
Well, now I am posing a second question - that is allowed isn't it?
I don't think there's anything venal or crass in thinking that Richard III was just a human being and not some demi-god with blue blood flowing through his veins.
If Kapellmeister wants to apply medieval standards to how we live today I wonder how exactly he'd fare as a feudal homosexual villein.
I could sort of understand this 'he was an anointed king' thing, if it wasn't for the fact that our present 'annointed' monarch hadn't been given quite so much stick for not entering the fray as to where her predecessor should go. I've even seen some people commenting that they were praying that there'd be a different monarch on the throne before the reinterment, in hope that the new one would intervene!
Given that a large proportion of the population are (at best) indifferent to monarchy and many don't believe in God, the 'anointed king' card isn't going to hold much sway with many people.
Ooh I quite like that. Nice coursed arcade and those hatchments look nice.
Also the door on high which (presumably) once led to the rood loft
And it's Grade I listed which, of course, Leicester 'cathedral' isn't (despite what Monteeth might claim on their website).
So what? Why does that matter? Especially as you seemed to be alluding to it as inadequate and as reminding you of Leicester cathedral.
So I repeat my second question especially for K/M - What was Richard's status when he was originally buried?
My apologies, I got the Harolds mixed up. Simple error, that's all, my point still stands. William left the bodies of the fallen (including Harold) on the battlefield to rot for several weeks. Then his conscience led him to have them collected and given dignified burial.
That was the point I was trying to make, before 'Harold' confused me!
You are welcome to join the Facebook pages for yourself, but the ones where the bulk of the campaign work is being done are private, to protect the members from the abuse that's been heaped on the campaigners over the last two years.
I post everything I have permission to post, and several members of the campiagn read this thread. If they want to reveal who they are, they will do. But it would be wrong of me to repost their comments without their permission, or share with you their work, particularly if it's still ongoing.
If you choose not to believe me, that's up to you. But I'm telling you the truth.
York hasn't given up hope through the centuries, they tried several times to repair Richard's reputation, he's honoured throughout the county, and has been since he was Lord of the North. The Minster still holds services for him, and Middleham has an annual celebration of him. He's been remembered and honoured in Sherrif Hutton, Scarborough, and all over the county, for hundreds of years.
If you did a bit of searching, you can find dozens of examples of how Yorkshire has stayed loyal, and not given up on Richard.
His story has far from finished. If it had, we wouldn't be discussing this now.
The vast majority of Ricardians haven't agreed, neither have most historians, and descendants. The church isn't arguing because they don't want to become unseemly, not because they specifically agree.
And your repeating that the Minster doesn't want him, doesn't make it true. The campaign have had a number of letters indicating otherwise, it seems to be Dean Faull who doesn't want him, not everyone at the Minster. And they would accept him if he was brought back to Yorkshire, so whether they actually want him or not is irrelevant.
By the same token, Leicester Cathedral doesn't seem to want him, just the revenue and prestige he'll supposedly bring to them. They treat him with disrespect, are contemptuous of his life and reputation, and didn't even want to take up space with a proper tomb. Now the ugly block they're going to build shows even more disrespect. Their determination is to make Richard's reburial all about them, not about him, which suggests that they don't like him at all.
Leicester could have the most beautiful and magnificent cathedral in the world, and it would still be morally wrong to bury him there. Because it isn't where he wanted to be.
Leicester supporters keep assuming that what they think and would do is also what York supporters would think and do. No, York wouldn't take advantage of the reburial to make money, any income would have been incidental. The primary focus would be on Richard, and on doing what was fitting and appropriate, and most respectful for the King. Richard is loved and respected in Yorkshire, he's just a cash cow to Leicestershire.
Leicester won't make any money from Richard long-term, and not as much as they expect short-term. The only people who would come to see where he was found are Ricardians, and Leicester's treatment of Richard has angered too many of them.
The law can't have been upheld, because there's no law covering this unique situation - where to rebury a lost King of England. So it can't be the right thing, on that basis alone.
Most of his life connects him with Yorkshire, beyond everywhere else. Lots of places within, but the whole county was very much favoured by Richard, and his colossal chantry pins his burial wishes down to York.
The campaign is not finished. Neither is this issue, it could go on for years. Thousands of people won't stop until Richard is back in York, where he wanted to be.
http://www.richardiiiboarandbanner.com/richard_iii_lawmaker.html
http://mattlewisauthor.wordpress.com/2014/07/08/livery-maintenance-and-richard-iii/
There are millions of people who have no interest in this matter. The constant invoking of petitions and publicity stunts like writing to everyone in Parliament about the matter is a great turn off. All it does, sadly, is reinforce the view that anyone interested in Richard III and his life and times are fruit cakes.
Can you please refrain from referring to everyone against a Leicester reburial as 'pro-Yorkers'. Thanks. 'True Ricardians' might be more accurate.
Do we know where the remains are at the moment? I'm presuming they're still in a shoe box on a shelf at the university? Surely by now they should've been transferred to a more suitable location?
Again, an opinion. You still haven't answered my second question. Do you always avoid questions you can't answer?
OK, let me ask you a question.
Would you think it suitable and fitting for Richard III to be reburied in a church like this:
http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/1127472
http://www.stlukeschurchbuckfastleigh.org.uk/communities/8/004/011/559/968/images/4586164744.swf
Yes or no.
Of course I can answer the question. But the question is of total irrelevance.
A ridiculous question as he is not going to be buried there.
Of course not. But if it had been 'the nearest consecrated ground' to Greyfriars then he might well have been buried there. If 'one House of God is as good as another', if the building itself is irrelevant, then what objection would you have? I can only assume you'd have no objection, true?
You know it isn't and that is why you won't answer it
Nice merchandise. I never realised what a decent man R3 was until I saw those fridge magnets
The parliament that passed the Act of Attainder against Richard III didn't convene until 7th November 1485. Presumably Richard III had been buried long before then.
It doesn't look like it could house a tomb to me, without impinging on the space in quite a major way.
I'd say yes, but only if a bigger space at a bigger church / cathedral in the parish were unavailable.
It's irrelevant anyway as he is not going to that church. He's being buried at St Martin's cathedral church in Leicester
No doubt you'll see fridge magnets and a lot more 'Made in China' crap at the shop in the vacuous new 'visitor centre'.
Thanks. That tells me all I need to know.
They clearly don't give a toss about him and just want to make money OUT OF TAT
AAAARRRRGHHHH <soils self in fury>