What it is, is that by accepting some alternative to replacement/refund, you can be deemed to have accepted the goods. I thought, but maybe this is not right.
In what way is returning faulty goods directly to the manufacturer accepting an alternative to replacement, repair or refund? No other outcome will occur, It's just more efficient for all parties. The SOGA provides statutory rights that cannot be voided by that.
In what way is returning faulty goods directly to the manufacturer accepting an alternative to replacement, repair or refund? No other outcome will occur, It's just more efficient for all parties. The SOGA provides statutory rights that cannot be voided by that.
If you insist on doing it your way then nobody can stop you, but it still doesn't alter the fact that the legal contract is between the purchaser and the supplier.
If it was a mail order purchase, they have a system in place for returning goods free of charge, although it's far better to take it back to a shop, so that if it gets lost or stolen on the way back to the manufacturer, they're the ones who are liable.
The OP's problem is solved. Littlewoods are sorting it out.
But I have tried to sort out warranty problems with a manufacturer once before, rather than the retailer, to save time.
They were distinctly 'commercial' and said it would be treated as a repair and I would be liable for costs and and handling charges and return delivery.
I've forgotten who it was now. But one of the major brands..
ie There was no contract between me and them. The contract was between me and the retailer.
If you insist on doing it your way then nobody can stop you, but it still doesn't alter the fact that the legal contract is between the purchaser and the supplier.
I would never insist on returning goods directly to the manufacturer, the point I made earlier in the thread was that if the retailers returns procedure is operated by the manufacturer you are likely to get a faster resolution than insisting on returning the faulty goods to the retailer first, and you're not giving up any statutory rights in doing so.
My opinion is simply derived from experience of large companies and their systems. If they have a system in place, unless there's a really good reason not to, go with it rather than fight it, you'll probably end up shooting yourself in the foot by insisting otherwise.
Regarding your second point, if a manufacturer has offered a manufacturers warranty they are legally obliged to honour it, so they do actually have an obligation to the purchaser.
Dealing directly with the manufacturer not only complicates matters, it also lets the vendor off the hook, or looking at it more positively, deprives them of feedback.
Attempts to deny the Sale of Goods Act is more likely to occur with big-ticket items costing many thousands of pounds. In such cases it is always a wise move to record your grievances factually - never get involved in an argument and never try to appeal to their better nature. Never threaten them by saying that you're going to go to the newspapers, tell all your friends about them, etc.
Always try to deal with one person only, but beware of the "oh, he's just gone on holiday for two weeks" tactic. Some people will simply try to keep delaying you in the hope that you get fed up, cut your losses and walk away.
At the first sign that this is happening, keep a note of who said what, complete with time and date. Be very careful about agreeing to accept a repair, depending on the nature of the item. If it is a faulty part that is easily replaced, then fair enough, but if it requires a structural repair (to mend bodywork or cracked plastic), the best plan is to state in the first instance that you are rejecting the item as not being of merchantable quality and demand a refund.
If the worse comes to the worse it might be better to use the small claims court - don't threaten to do it, just do it. In my experience, reporting people to Trading Standards is often a waste of time.
Regarding your second point, if a manufacturer has offered a manufacturers warranty they are legally obliged to honour it, so they do actually have an obligation to the purchaser.
No one has suggested that the manufacturer has no obligation to honour a manufacturers guarantee - the point though is that dealing direct in that way loses you all your rights under the SOGA, which only applies to the original retailer.
And while the SOGA requires the retailer to sort it out in a 'reasonable time', there's no such obligation for the manufacturer.
No one has suggested that the manufacturer has no obligation to honour a manufacturers guarantee - the point though is that dealing direct in that way loses you all your rights under the SOGA, which only applies to the original retailer.
And while the SOGA requires the retailer to sort it out in a 'reasonable time', there's no such obligation for the manufacturer.
It is completely absurd to suggest you lose your statory rights after following a retailers instructions to return goods directly to the manufacturer. If the manfacturer does not deal with the issue in a timely manner you go back to the retailer and push for refund, replacement, whatever, just as you would if you had returned the goods to the retailer first.
If you have no success you can still take the retailer to the county court, you have not forfeited your statutory rights in any way shape or form and I challenge you to post a link to a credible source that says otherwise.
It is completely absurd to suggest you lose your statory rights after following a retailers instructions to return goods directly to the manufacturer. If the manfacturer does not deal with the issue in a timely manner you go back to the retailer and push for refund, replacement, whatever, just as you would if you had returned the goods to the retailer first.
If you have no success you can still take the retailer to the county court, you have not forfeited your statutory rights in any way shape or form and I challenge you to post a link to a credible source that says otherwise.
So you walk in to a shop and say "I'd like a refund please" - "certainly sir, what are you returning" - answer "NOTHING"
Presumably you've got the retailers instructions to contact the manufacturer direct in writing?, while you can certainly still take the retailer to court you've certainly weakened your case by expecting a refund while not returning what you want the refund on.
Try reading the SOGA - which applies ONLY to the original retailer - why would you want to weaken your case?.
So you walk in to a shop and say "I'd like a refund please" - "certainly sir, what are you returning" - answer "NOTHING"
Presumably you've got the retailers instructions to contact the manufacturer direct in writing?, while you can certainly still take the retailer to court you've certainly weakened your case by expecting a refund while not returning what you want the refund on.
Try reading the SOGA - which applies ONLY to the original retailer - why would you want to weaken your case?.
As I said in my last post, can you post a link to a credible source that substantiates your opinion that your SOGA rights are forfeited or compromised in any way if you follow a retailers instruction to return to the manafacturer? No, didn't think so
As I said in my last post, can you post a link to a credible source that substantiates your opinion that your SOGA rights are forfeited or compromised in any way if you follow a retailers instruction to return to the manafacturer? No, didn't think so
You could try actually reading the SOGA - can you post any links proving it's not compromised?
How do expect to get a refund when you're not returning the item?.
You could try actually reading the SOGA - can you post any links proving it's not compromised?
How do expect to get a refund when you're not returning the item?.
As you well know you can't prove the non-existence of something. The SOGA confers statutory rights that cannot be contracted out of by a retailer. And yes you have returned the item, the manufacturer is effectively the agent of the retailer in that circumstance.
I was very much of your thinking regarding insistence on returning to the retailer, but my personal experiences of direct to manufacturer warranty returns has been nothing but exemplary. The type of companies that operate such schemes tend to be those that are passionate about customer service, not the opposite. For example, I've had failed equipment replaced by Sonos before they've even received the faulty item.
I think that Littlewoods are in the wrong here. As the trader and as the supplier of the faulty goods, they should accept responsibility and sort this matter out by providing a refund or by offering a repair or replacement.
The customer should not have to organise anything and I've seen this before when retailers try to worm their way out of their statutory obligations - it's just not good enough.
As someone that sells domestic goods along side entertainment items I might have a different view. All of the domestic appliance manufacturers operate their own manufacturers guarantee systems. If a customers washing machine goes faulty, the quickest, easiest and most logical way to sort the problem is for the customer to call the manufacturer on their dedicated guarantee number and book in a convenient slot for the engineer to visit and sort the problem. If the manufacturer takes the p*ss and does not resolve properly then of course we can jump up & down on them to sort it out as, at the end of the day, the contract is with us the retailer.
We are more than happy to be the middleman an have a three-way conversation to book call-outs in but it does just increase the hassle & time for the customer. In the same fashion if a digital camera goes faulty the customer can either bring the item in to us, let us book it in with the manufacturer, wait for the collection/repair/return then come back to us to collect. Or they can have the camera picked up direct from them and returned direct to them saving them both time and effort in having to visit us twice & also the added delay in waiting for us to have it before it can be organised to go back.
We have never had any issues with these systems before.
I'm surprised that anyone has the cheek to tell Nigel he's wrong about this. He's been in TV retail for decades and is THE expert for such matters on this forum. You're effectively accusing him of not knowing his job, which is rude.
I have read the S.O.G. many times and my interpretation is the same as Nigel's.
I'm surprised that anyone has the cheek to tell Nigel he's wrong about this. He's been in TV retail for decades and is THE expert for such matters on this forum. You're effectively accusing him of not knowing his job, which is rude..
His profile says he's a TV service engineer, did anybody say he can't fix a telly? It hardly makes him an unimpeachable expert on SOGA and the law.
Try reading the SOGA - which applies ONLY to the original retailer - why would you want to weaken your case?.
However, in this case the original manufacturer is acting as technical / repairs / enquiry support team on behalf of the retailer so in essence the OP is still dealing with the retailer on his enquiry. Legally, it's exactly the same as if the retailer had given him a in-house support number to call.
Nice they got it sorted though, kudos to Littlewoods.
His profile says he's a TV service engineer, did anybody say he can't fix a telly? It hardly makes him an unimpeachable expert on SOGA and the law.
AFAIK, Nigel has worked for what would amount to an independent TV retailer/repair shop for many years now (IIRC, he's mentioned since ~1969 a few times on other threads here) in a North Midlands town not too distant from myself. As it's a combined retailer and repair centre, you'd kind of expect him to know about both.
Whether or not you'd expect him to know about it, he doesn't. His assertion that you forfeit your SOGA rights by returning a faulty item to the manufacturer on the instruction of a retailer is complete nonsense.
Comments
If it was a mail order purchase, they have a system in place for returning goods free of charge, although it's far better to take it back to a shop, so that if it gets lost or stolen on the way back to the manufacturer, they're the ones who are liable.
But I have tried to sort out warranty problems with a manufacturer once before, rather than the retailer, to save time.
They were distinctly 'commercial' and said it would be treated as a repair and I would be liable for costs and and handling charges and return delivery.
I've forgotten who it was now. But one of the major brands..
ie There was no contract between me and them. The contract was between me and the retailer.
My opinion is simply derived from experience of large companies and their systems. If they have a system in place, unless there's a really good reason not to, go with it rather than fight it, you'll probably end up shooting yourself in the foot by insisting otherwise.
Regarding your second point, if a manufacturer has offered a manufacturers warranty they are legally obliged to honour it, so they do actually have an obligation to the purchaser.
Attempts to deny the Sale of Goods Act is more likely to occur with big-ticket items costing many thousands of pounds. In such cases it is always a wise move to record your grievances factually - never get involved in an argument and never try to appeal to their better nature. Never threaten them by saying that you're going to go to the newspapers, tell all your friends about them, etc.
Always try to deal with one person only, but beware of the "oh, he's just gone on holiday for two weeks" tactic. Some people will simply try to keep delaying you in the hope that you get fed up, cut your losses and walk away.
At the first sign that this is happening, keep a note of who said what, complete with time and date. Be very careful about agreeing to accept a repair, depending on the nature of the item. If it is a faulty part that is easily replaced, then fair enough, but if it requires a structural repair (to mend bodywork or cracked plastic), the best plan is to state in the first instance that you are rejecting the item as not being of merchantable quality and demand a refund.
If the worse comes to the worse it might be better to use the small claims court - don't threaten to do it, just do it. In my experience, reporting people to Trading Standards is often a waste of time.
No one has suggested that the manufacturer has no obligation to honour a manufacturers guarantee - the point though is that dealing direct in that way loses you all your rights under the SOGA, which only applies to the original retailer.
And while the SOGA requires the retailer to sort it out in a 'reasonable time', there's no such obligation for the manufacturer.
If you have no success you can still take the retailer to the county court, you have not forfeited your statutory rights in any way shape or form and I challenge you to post a link to a credible source that says otherwise.
So you walk in to a shop and say "I'd like a refund please" - "certainly sir, what are you returning" - answer "NOTHING"
Presumably you've got the retailers instructions to contact the manufacturer direct in writing?, while you can certainly still take the retailer to court you've certainly weakened your case by expecting a refund while not returning what you want the refund on.
Try reading the SOGA - which applies ONLY to the original retailer - why would you want to weaken your case?.
As I said in my last post, can you post a link to a credible source that substantiates your opinion that your SOGA rights are forfeited or compromised in any way if you follow a retailers instruction to return to the manafacturer? No, didn't think so
You could try actually reading the SOGA - can you post any links proving it's not compromised?
How do expect to get a refund when you're not returning the item?.
I was very much of your thinking regarding insistence on returning to the retailer, but my personal experiences of direct to manufacturer warranty returns has been nothing but exemplary. The type of companies that operate such schemes tend to be those that are passionate about customer service, not the opposite. For example, I've had failed equipment replaced by Sonos before they've even received the faulty item.
We can agree to disagree!
As someone that sells domestic goods along side entertainment items I might have a different view. All of the domestic appliance manufacturers operate their own manufacturers guarantee systems. If a customers washing machine goes faulty, the quickest, easiest and most logical way to sort the problem is for the customer to call the manufacturer on their dedicated guarantee number and book in a convenient slot for the engineer to visit and sort the problem. If the manufacturer takes the p*ss and does not resolve properly then of course we can jump up & down on them to sort it out as, at the end of the day, the contract is with us the retailer.
We are more than happy to be the middleman an have a three-way conversation to book call-outs in but it does just increase the hassle & time for the customer. In the same fashion if a digital camera goes faulty the customer can either bring the item in to us, let us book it in with the manufacturer, wait for the collection/repair/return then come back to us to collect. Or they can have the camera picked up direct from them and returned direct to them saving them both time and effort in having to visit us twice & also the added delay in waiting for us to have it before it can be organised to go back.
We have never had any issues with these systems before.
I have read the S.O.G. many times and my interpretation is the same as Nigel's.
However, in this case the original manufacturer is acting as technical / repairs / enquiry support team on behalf of the retailer so in essence the OP is still dealing with the retailer on his enquiry. Legally, it's exactly the same as if the retailer had given him a in-house support number to call.
Nice they got it sorted though, kudos to Littlewoods.
AFAIK, Nigel has worked for what would amount to an independent TV retailer/repair shop for many years now (IIRC, he's mentioned since ~1969 a few times on other threads here) in a North Midlands town not too distant from myself. As it's a combined retailer and repair centre, you'd kind of expect him to know about both.