My kids start out clean every morning but soon end up filthy so I dont class that as neglect either.
Extended family reporting 'concerns' to SS coincidently following a marriage breakdown is sadly not uncommon. The vast majority are unfounded and based on malice rather than genuine concern.
Hindsight is a wonderful thing but short of offering an apology I'm not sure there is anything you could do at this stage to improve matters. I would stay well out of it and let your brother deal with it.
My kids start out clean every morning but soon end up filthy so I dont class that as neglect either.
Extended family reporting 'concerns' to SS coincidently following a marriage breakdown is sadly not uncommon. The vast majority are unfounded and based on malice rather than genuine concern.
Hindsight is a wonderful thing but short of offering an apology I'm not sure there is anything you could do at this stage to improve matters. I would stay well out of it and let your brother deal with it.
I'm not sure clothes too small or too big are a biggy either, if it was we would have parents being investigated left right and centre.
I'm not sure clothes too small or too big are a biggy either, if it was we would have parents being investigated left right and centre.
Totally agree. Mine can end up in all sorts in the desperate bid to get out the house on time in the morning and then end up covered in God knows what from nursery anyhow....practical parenting if you ask me
If a child complains of toothache for a few weeks and nothing is done about it, that's neglect. Considering that children's dental care is still free under the NHS, there's no excuse for not sorting it out sooner.
If a child complains of toothache for a few weeks and nothing is done about it, that's neglect. Considering that children's dental care is still free under the NHS, there's no excuse for not sorting it out sooner.
but was it actually for a few weeks, my son mistakes years, months, weeks and days when saying things, I can leave him for a day and he will say he's not seen me in a week, he a bright 6 year old so there may not be much difference between him and a 7 year old in that regards.
My kids are often filthy by the end of the day, ones trousers are too short because if I buy him longer ones they fall off his arse as he's skinny the other has ones too long as he a shot chubber:D, I cant see any of these three things listed being a biggie for neglect with regards the opening post I think it would depend on the reasons which the OP is currently withholding.
My idea of neglect is clearly different to yours. What would you class as neglect?
All the stuff that happened to me for the first few years of my life that resulted in me going into care. Reading what the OP has said, I see no reason to call SS and if hes done it for the reasons hes stated then he's done a really, really bad thing.
All the stuff that happened to me for the first few years of my life that resulted in me going into care. Reading what the OP has said, I see no reason to call SS and if hes done it for the reasons hes stated then he's done a really, really bad thing.
I'm sorry to hear you had a bad start in life, no one deserves that.
The OP had seen the children and was concerned enough to call a social worker. They definitely did the right thing. Far better to make that call and be wrong than not make a call and be wrong.
Social workers that work in child protection are the ones to decide if a child needs protecting. They gather evidence and look at all aspects of a child's care. It's impossible for you to judge from a single post on an internet forum that the OP made a bad choice in making that call.
Thanks for all your comments. I suppose to get a true response i need to go into details. Well heres the list:
Eldest boy.
Locked his bedroom. All toys bought by dad binned.
Kept off school for 5 weeks when they lived in england. Social Work visited then and compiled a report. He was sent for shopping this while time as mum did not leave the house.
Getting himself up and dressed and out to school - bus journey 20 mins.
Shoplifting
Wearing shoes so small feet blistered.
Not just run of the mill dirty - but ingrained dirt. Ears, nails etc.
Acting out at school - inappropriate behaviour.
Animal abuse
Drinking and drug use in the household. "Unsavoury" types around at all hours. New fiancee present at property.
No homework being done, no interaction except negatives (probably causing the acting out)
Eventually told his dad on the phone that he was in pain and that he was miserable. Phone was taken from him and hung up. No further contact.
Youngest boy
In playpen all day
No words - nor basic mumumum or dadadada etc.
Relatives kept from the baby. Last time i saw him was told "dont pick him up, hell get too used to it"
You may think that these are trivial issues, but i didnt, which is why i did what i did knowing full well speaking to her directly was not an option. I will be so glad to see my brother this week and let him deal with it all.
Not trivial at all OP. Possibly a sign of the Mum being in depression though. In which case SS should be able to help, fingers crossed. And while I agree you did what you had to do for the kids I think you're going to have to bite the bullet and just stand back now. It will likely be extremely painful not seeing the kids but hopefully their Mum will eventually understand and realise you probably helped them all and she will eventually let you back into their lives.
So are you saying these issues only arose after the marriage broke up? there were no concerns prior to October at all?
If so, I would agree with RandomSally about possible depression, not uncommon after a marriage break up. It doesn't make the issues less trivial obviously but it might explain the timing, especially if your brother left her.
You may think that these are trivial issues, but i didnt, which is why i did what i did knowing full well speaking to her directly was not an option. I will be so glad to see my brother this week and let him deal with it all.
Most people wouldn't feel these are trivial issues but to get a true response full details are needed.
I would agree with the above if the kids were well looked after etc prior to the break up that the mum may well be suffering from depression
According to my brother she was always reasonably harsh with the eldest, and not exactly (for the want of a better word) bothered, but my brother was always there to ensure that's all it was.
He spoke about leaving her around 3 years ago, but then the second baby was conceived. He said he wouldn't leave as that would mean leaving his boys. They moved about 600 miles away in august as she could bear being without my brother whilst he was working away (he worked away mon-fri and home weekends) She said on more than one occasion that she loved him too much for them to be apart. They gave their house up and took eldest out of school. 2 months later, in October, she ended the marriage. By text. 2 months on she was engaged to someone else.
I totally agree that she may be depressed, in fact her and I had spoken about this on a few occasions. I don't think she really sees that it is an issue, however.
Tbh, there're loads more things, but I really do not want to be "she said, she said" as that has never been what this has been about. I like her and always have, but I love my nephews and want them to be ok. I realise I may not see them for a while, if ever, and that's something I need to accept. as long as they are ok and my brother sorts things out.
Thanks for all your comments. I suppose to get a true response i need to go into details. Well heres the list:
Eldest boy.
Locked his bedroom. All toys bought by dad binned.
Kept off school for 5 weeks when they lived in england. Social Work visited then and compiled a report. He was sent for shopping this while time as mum did not leave the house.
Getting himself up and dressed and out to school - bus journey 20 mins.
Shoplifting
Wearing shoes so small feet blistered.
Not just run of the mill dirty - but ingrained dirt. Ears, nails etc.
Acting out at school - inappropriate behaviour.
Animal abuse
Drinking and drug use in the household. "Unsavoury" types around at all hours. New fiancee present at property.
No homework being done, no interaction except negatives (probably causing the acting out)
Eventually told his dad on the phone that he was in pain and that he was miserable. Phone was taken from him and hung up. No further contact.
Youngest boy
In playpen all day
No words - nor basic mumumum or dadadada etc.
Relatives kept from the baby. Last time i saw him was told "dont pick him up, hell get too used to it"
You may think that these are trivial issues, but i didnt, which is why i did what i did knowing full well speaking to her directly was not an option. I will be so glad to see my brother this week and let him deal with it all.
This puts an entirely different slant on the whole thing and I can now see why you called social services.
Is your brother in any position to get custody - I notice you said he works 8000 miles away - could he change his work?
A friend of mine got custody of his two children (pre-teen/early teen) following a lot less than what you've described here. The only additional factor was that the house was disgustingly dirty too.
It wasn't plain sailing and SS have been a total nightmare - for example, despite my friend and his new wife never having any issues with new wife's two children they wanted friend & new wife to go on a parenting course BUT the children are now in a much better position and still get to see their mother.
As I said, the OP had seen the children and had concerns. They called a social worker, which was entirely the right thing to do. By the sounds of it, telling the mum first would not have been easy, or necessarily helpful.
As I said, the OP had seen the children and had concerns. They called a social worker, which was entirely the right thing to do. By the sounds of it, telling the mum first would not have been easy, or necessarily helpful.
now we have a better picture of what has been going on, yes it sounds more reasonable.
OP, as somebody else mentioned, any chance your brother can get a job where he is close by ?
Yes does put a different slant on things but my question would be why is the father allowing this to go on ? Why hasn't he taken the children to safety ? It shouldn't be down to OP to complain the father should be right in the middle of this, and living on Jupiter wouldn't be a good enough excuse for him not to be there and sorting this out for me I am afraid.
Yes does put a different slant on things but my question would be why is the father allowing this to go on ? Why hasn't he taken the children to safety ? It shouldn't be down to OP to complain the father should be right in the middle of this, and living on Jupiter wouldn't be a good enough excuse for him not to be there and sorting this out for me I am afraid.
So now we have a bit more information you realise your harsh criticism of the OP was somewhat hasty. Perhaps you and your self righteousness need to learn from that and take a step back from now having a go at the dad. Is this advice or folk just taking an opportunity to point out the perceived short comings of others?
So now we have a bit more information you realise your harsh criticism of the OP was somewhat hasty. Perhaps you and your self righteousness need to learn from that and take a step back from now having a go at the dad. Is this advice or folk just taking an opportunity to point out the perceived short comings of others?
No not hasty at all if the OP had told us what the problem was we could have offered better advise as it is we had a couple of pages of half truths and no details. Nothing about having small clothes or being a bit dirty really was it !
As for self righteous having picked up after my sisters messes and having brought up their children because they couldn't cope with them I see this from the children's side. And yes I blame the father too I am all for equality when it comes to raising children it's down to both parents to do it.
So now we have a bit more information you realise your harsh criticism of the OP was somewhat hasty. Perhaps you and your self righteousness need to learn from that and take a step back from now having a go at the dad. Is this advice or folk just taking an opportunity to point out the perceived short comings of others?
Not hasty at all - if was fair given the information provided. With new information both mollie and I have been able to form a different opinion.
And yes, the brother needs to step up. The children have to come first and they are as much his responsibility as the mother's. If she can't look after them, he should.
And mollie is making suggestions and sharing personal experience - not just having a pop at other FMs. What advice is it you are actually offering to the OP?
Thank you for sharing your experiences, it is helpful to get an insight into all sides of this issue. I guess I should had given all the details at the beginning.
As I type, my brother is currently waiting for an RAF flight to bring him home to try and sort this asap. The job that he does will not readily allow him to move back up to Scotland on a permanent basis. He has approached his employers about trying to work from home or worst case, he has indicated he would leave his employment altogether.
Whilst this would be very beneficial in the interim to get a handle on things, this will leave him in a precarious position to have a home and steady employment to provide for his boys. Hopefully he can sit down on Sunday when he gets home and get an action plan in place.
No not hasty at all if the OP had told us what the problem was we could have offered better advise as it is we had a couple of pages of half truths and no details. Nothing about having small clothes or being a bit dirty really was it !
As for self righteous having picked up after my sisters messes and having brought up their children because they couldn't cope with them I see this from the children's side. And yes I blame the father too I am all for equality when it comes to raising children it's down to both parents to do it.
That's just the point really BIB. You couldn't wait to wade in and criticise the OP could you, when it was obvious that not everything was known at this point. You can't expect posters to put absolutely everything. Now it's apparent that you got that bit wrong you're having a go at the children's father. And yes, you do come across as extremely self-righteous to be honest.
You say you're seeing it from the children's side, yet go on about calls to social workers, when peeps are really worried, as "reporting" someone. Just step away from the keyboard and have a think about whether you're helping in advice or just taking an opportunity to have a go.
That's just the point really BIB. You couldn't wait to wade in and criticise the OP could you, when it was obvious that not everything was known at this point. You can't expect posters to put absolutely everything. Now it's apparent that you got that bit wrong you're having a go at the children's father. And yes, you do come across as extremely self-righteous to be honest.
You say you're seeing it from the children's side, yet go on about calls to social workers, when peeps are really worried, as "reporting" someone. Just step away from the keyboard and have a think about whether you're helping in advice or just taking an opportunity to have a go.
I think you are being unfair to molliepops to be honest. I pretty much shared her opinion, as did others which was only based on the info we knew at the time. New info was then forthcoming which altered the picture but the extent of the father's role and responsibility was lacking and so it was perfectly fair to raise this as an issue.
molliepops has always come across as a reasonable and level headed fm to me.
I think you are being unfair to molliepops to be honest. I pretty much shared her opinion, as did others which was only based on the info we knew at the time. New info was then forthcoming which altered the picture but the extent of the father's role and responsibility was lacking and so it was perfectly fair to raise this as an issue.
molliepops has always come across as a reasonable and level headed fm to me.
Perhaps she does, but not in this case. Your post does rather prove the point that wading in straight away to criticise isn't helpful, especially as it's impossible to have all the information needed, just from an initial post.
Comments
best hire some more social workers,
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-26737454
Extended family reporting 'concerns' to SS coincidently following a marriage breakdown is sadly not uncommon. The vast majority are unfounded and based on malice rather than genuine concern.
Hindsight is a wonderful thing but short of offering an apology I'm not sure there is anything you could do at this stage to improve matters. I would stay well out of it and let your brother deal with it.
I'm not sure clothes too small or too big are a biggy either, if it was we would have parents being investigated left right and centre.
Totally agree. Mine can end up in all sorts in the desperate bid to get out the house on time in the morning and then end up covered in God knows what from nursery anyhow....practical parenting if you ask me
but was it actually for a few weeks, my son mistakes years, months, weeks and days when saying things, I can leave him for a day and he will say he's not seen me in a week, he a bright 6 year old so there may not be much difference between him and a 7 year old in that regards.
My kids are often filthy by the end of the day, ones trousers are too short because if I buy him longer ones they fall off his arse as he's skinny the other has ones too long as he a shot chubber:D, I cant see any of these three things listed being a biggie for neglect with regards the opening post I think it would depend on the reasons which the OP is currently withholding.
All the stuff that happened to me for the first few years of my life that resulted in me going into care. Reading what the OP has said, I see no reason to call SS and if hes done it for the reasons hes stated then he's done a really, really bad thing.
I'm sorry to hear you had a bad start in life, no one deserves that.
The OP had seen the children and was concerned enough to call a social worker. They definitely did the right thing. Far better to make that call and be wrong than not make a call and be wrong.
Social workers that work in child protection are the ones to decide if a child needs protecting. They gather evidence and look at all aspects of a child's care. It's impossible for you to judge from a single post on an internet forum that the OP made a bad choice in making that call.
Yes it is.
Eldest boy.
Locked his bedroom. All toys bought by dad binned.
Kept off school for 5 weeks when they lived in england. Social Work visited then and compiled a report. He was sent for shopping this while time as mum did not leave the house.
Getting himself up and dressed and out to school - bus journey 20 mins.
Shoplifting
Wearing shoes so small feet blistered.
Not just run of the mill dirty - but ingrained dirt. Ears, nails etc.
Acting out at school - inappropriate behaviour.
Animal abuse
Drinking and drug use in the household. "Unsavoury" types around at all hours. New fiancee present at property.
No homework being done, no interaction except negatives (probably causing the acting out)
Eventually told his dad on the phone that he was in pain and that he was miserable. Phone was taken from him and hung up. No further contact.
Youngest boy
In playpen all day
No words - nor basic mumumum or dadadada etc.
Relatives kept from the baby. Last time i saw him was told "dont pick him up, hell get too used to it"
You may think that these are trivial issues, but i didnt, which is why i did what i did knowing full well speaking to her directly was not an option. I will be so glad to see my brother this week and let him deal with it all.
If so, I would agree with RandomSally about possible depression, not uncommon after a marriage break up. It doesn't make the issues less trivial obviously but it might explain the timing, especially if your brother left her.
Most people wouldn't feel these are trivial issues but to get a true response full details are needed.
I would agree with the above if the kids were well looked after etc prior to the break up that the mum may well be suffering from depression
He spoke about leaving her around 3 years ago, but then the second baby was conceived. He said he wouldn't leave as that would mean leaving his boys. They moved about 600 miles away in august as she could bear being without my brother whilst he was working away (he worked away mon-fri and home weekends) She said on more than one occasion that she loved him too much for them to be apart. They gave their house up and took eldest out of school. 2 months later, in October, she ended the marriage. By text. 2 months on she was engaged to someone else.
I totally agree that she may be depressed, in fact her and I had spoken about this on a few occasions. I don't think she really sees that it is an issue, however.
Tbh, there're loads more things, but I really do not want to be "she said, she said" as that has never been what this has been about. I like her and always have, but I love my nephews and want them to be ok. I realise I may not see them for a while, if ever, and that's something I need to accept. as long as they are ok and my brother sorts things out.
This puts an entirely different slant on the whole thing and I can now see why you called social services.
Is your brother in any position to get custody - I notice you said he works 8000 miles away - could he change his work?
A friend of mine got custody of his two children (pre-teen/early teen) following a lot less than what you've described here. The only additional factor was that the house was disgustingly dirty too.
It wasn't plain sailing and SS have been a total nightmare - for example, despite my friend and his new wife never having any issues with new wife's two children they wanted friend & new wife to go on a parenting course
now we have a better picture of what has been going on, yes it sounds more reasonable.
OP, as somebody else mentioned, any chance your brother can get a job where he is close by ?
So now we have a bit more information you realise your harsh criticism of the OP was somewhat hasty. Perhaps you and your self righteousness need to learn from that and take a step back from now having a go at the dad. Is this advice or folk just taking an opportunity to point out the perceived short comings of others?
No not hasty at all if the OP had told us what the problem was we could have offered better advise as it is we had a couple of pages of half truths and no details. Nothing about having small clothes or being a bit dirty really was it !
As for self righteous having picked up after my sisters messes and having brought up their children because they couldn't cope with them I see this from the children's side. And yes I blame the father too I am all for equality when it comes to raising children it's down to both parents to do it.
Not hasty at all - if was fair given the information provided. With new information both mollie and I have been able to form a different opinion.
And yes, the brother needs to step up. The children have to come first and they are as much his responsibility as the mother's. If she can't look after them, he should.
And mollie is making suggestions and sharing personal experience - not just having a pop at other FMs. What advice is it you are actually offering to the OP?
As I type, my brother is currently waiting for an RAF flight to bring him home to try and sort this asap. The job that he does will not readily allow him to move back up to Scotland on a permanent basis. He has approached his employers about trying to work from home or worst case, he has indicated he would leave his employment altogether.
Whilst this would be very beneficial in the interim to get a handle on things, this will leave him in a precarious position to have a home and steady employment to provide for his boys. Hopefully he can sit down on Sunday when he gets home and get an action plan in place.
That's just the point really BIB. You couldn't wait to wade in and criticise the OP could you, when it was obvious that not everything was known at this point. You can't expect posters to put absolutely everything. Now it's apparent that you got that bit wrong you're having a go at the children's father. And yes, you do come across as extremely self-righteous to be honest.
You say you're seeing it from the children's side, yet go on about calls to social workers, when peeps are really worried, as "reporting" someone. Just step away from the keyboard and have a think about whether you're helping in advice or just taking an opportunity to have a go.
I think you are being unfair to molliepops to be honest. I pretty much shared her opinion, as did others which was only based on the info we knew at the time. New info was then forthcoming which altered the picture but the extent of the father's role and responsibility was lacking and so it was perfectly fair to raise this as an issue.
molliepops has always come across as a reasonable and level headed fm to me.
Perhaps she does, but not in this case. Your post does rather prove the point that wading in straight away to criticise isn't helpful, especially as it's impossible to have all the information needed, just from an initial post.