oh you know me ....im always looking for conspiracy theories........
sometimes im way off line....and sometimes...just sometimes...I notice something important...ish!!!!
Ive found the photos...and basic info on the housemates...so im happy...thats all I need for now...what is this wildcard thing? Are more going in in a few days time?
That's the thing with conspiracy theorists. They're bound to be right eventually . . . . but it doesn't really matter cos they've been wrong so many other times! :D
Really not sure I can be bothered with this BB.:( BB12 was a waste of my time investment, and this series looks to be cut from the same cloth. Let me know if anything dramatic happens, or there's some unique personality in there.
Really not sure I can be bothered with this BB.:( BB12 was a waste of my time investment, and this series looks to be cut from the same cloth. Let me know if anything dramatic happens, or there's some unique personality in there.
40 days now . . . .
I'm not sure anything will match BB11 for me John James was a bit special.
BB also lacks something without live feed.
That's the thing with conspiracy theorists. They're bound to be right eventually . . . . but it doesn't really matter cos they've been wrong so many other times! :D
Really not sure I can be bothered with this BB.:( BB12 was a waste of my time investment, and this series looks to be cut from the same cloth. Let me know if anything dramatic happens, or there's some unique personality in there.
That's the thing with conspiracy theorists. They're bound to be right eventually . . . . but it doesn't really matter cos they've been wrong so many other times! :D
Really not sure I can be bothered with this BB.:( BB12 was a waste of my time investment, and this series looks to be cut from the same cloth. Let me know if anything dramatic happens, or there's some unique personality in there.
40 days now . . . .
Morning all.
Alex, I've resisted this BB and as far as I can see from Bit on the Side (watched 5 minutes of it) it is the same as last year. Luckily I have other things to keep me busy - Lewis, reading book, residents' groups etc.
Anyway, as requested, I am listing below the discussion questions.
PLEASE KEEP BUMPING THIS. WE CAN DISCUSS THIS UNTIL 8 AM TOMORROW (8TH JUNE)
THE HELP - KATHRYN STOCKETT
Set in Jackson, Mississippi in the 1960s
1. Which characters did you find the most likeable and why?Did you have a favourite character
2. What did you think motivated Abileen?
3. Do you think people's attitudes and behaviour can be forgiven because it is the norm in the particular culture?
4. How much of a person's character is shaped by the times they live in?
5. Do you think that there are still vestiges of prejudice in relationships where people of colour or different races work for one other?
I hope these questions stimulate some good discussion. Remember, we have until tomorrow morning to discuss them. Please ensure that you head your reply in Bold, Book Group Discussion.
I'm not sure anything will match BB11 for me John James was a bit special.
BB also lacks something without live feed.
actually its not just a lack of live feed......
its also the lack of catch ups........Im remembering how most summers .....Im on school holidays....so have time in the mornings and afternoons to watch daytime TV....
BB catch up programmes and live feed used to fill this gap....im normally doing bits and bobs...so dont really want to sit down and watch a film.....so a half hour programme would fill the gaps nicely.....
if you arent that interested ......then there isnt much incentive to get involved.......
but maybe thats deliberate....they arent going for a daytime audience at all???
Good morning everyone, hope you're all well. The sun is shining but I have a feeling it won't be for very long.
So we're on a count down but as usual we don't have a bloomin' clue what for, oh well we wouldn't want him to change the habits of a lifetime would we. God forbid we should have a tweet that is clear, concise and leaves us with not an ounce of speculation.
Have printed off the questions for the book club discussion so I can have a peruse over brekkies. Thanks nyannie.
Muggins.....:eek: gosh that link should have come with a warning it's far too early :D
I'm with nyannie and Alex, can't be bothered with BB anymore. I also watched 5 mins of BBOTS, 5 mins of my life I won't get back.
I too have far more interesting things to do. I have a pile of books (gonna have to get started on Dark Fire, it's a BIG book nyannie), the sky planner is nearly full with unwatched episodes of Touch, Alcatraz, Castle, Hawaii Five O and Lewis, and of course I've started my affair with Chris Packham again.
Then there's a grand prix this weekend (only highlights unfortunately) but I utterly refuse to pay another £100 pounds a year to Sky for the ten live races not covered by the BBC.:mad: Sorry rant over!
And then there's the decluttering that I've embarked on. No point in paying to have stuff moved to a new home only to arrive and wonder why you bothered to pack it in the first place. My sister in law (who moved last year) advised me to be ruthless and then when you think you're done be ruthless all over again.
Oh and we've been adopted by a little grey cat who's been hanging round our garden for a couple of weeks and is now residing in the conservatory furniture that's being stored under plastic in the garden. She's made herself at home and comes in for meals and a sleep on the kitchen chair! She's not chipped unfortunately and we are now trying to find her owner. She's such a sweet natured and friendly little thing, someone must be missing her. I can't keep her as she is taking far too much interest in Dizzy and Jazz (the budgies). I'm on constant alert!!:eek:
Good morning everyone, hope you're all well. The sun is shining but I have a feeling it won't be for very long.
So we're on a count down but as usual we don't have a bloomin' clue what for, oh well we wouldn't want him to change the habits of a lifetime would we. God forbid we should have a tweet that is clear, concise and leaves us with not an ounce of speculation.
Have printed off the questions for the book club discussion so I can have a peruse over brekkies. Thanks nyannie.
Muggins.....:eek: gosh that link should have come with a warning it's far too early
I'm with nyannie and Alex, can't be bothered with BB anymore. I also watched 5 mins of BBOTS, 5 mins of my life I won't get back.
I too have far more interesting things to do. I have a pile of books (gonna have to get started on Dark Fire, it's a BIG book nyannie), the sky planner is nearly full with unwatched episodes of Touch, Alcatraz, Castle, Hawaii Five O and Lewis, and of course I've started my affair with Chris Packham again.
Then there's a grand prix this weekend (only highlights unfortunately) but I utterly refuse to pay another £100 pounds a year to Sky for the ten live races not covered by the BBC.:mad: Sorry rant over!
And then there's the decluttering that I've embarked on. No point in paying to have stuff moved to a new home only to arrive and wonder why you bothered to pack it in the first place. My sister in law (who moved last year) advised me to be ruthless and then when you think you're done be ruthless all over again.
Oh and we've been adopted by a little grey cat who's been hanging round our garden for a couple of weeks and is now residing in the conservatory furniture that's being stored under plastic in the garden. She's made herself at home and comes in for meals and a sleep on the kitchen chair! She's not chipped unfortunately and we are now trying to find her owner. She's such a sweet natured and friendly little thing, someone must be missing her. I can't keep her as she is taking far too much interest in Dizzy and Jazz (the budgies). I'm on constant alert!!:eek:
Blimey I'm knackered, time for a cuppa.:D
It looks like you have a new family member with the cat.....:D.
loads of pets have been abandoned by families who cant afford them at the moment,,,,,,,,at least if she lives in the garden she can be kept away from the budgies......
that is the one huge problem with cats....they are so good at hunting.....but at least it means we dont have any live mice in the house.....( unless the dratted cats bring them in..!!!)
We have a couple of mice homes in the garden under the sheds and old garage....I try not to use any artificial pesticides or poisons in the garden....so the garden is full of mice....snails....slugs and frogs......and ants.....
we need to declutter so badly.....we have so much junk....that might come in useful one day..........
that is the beauty of moving...you have to force yourself to be ruthless and get rid of things.....
PLEASE KEEP BUMPING THIS. WE CAN DISCUSS THIS UNTIL 8 AM TOMORROW (8TH JUNE)
THE HELP - KATHRYN STOCKETT
Set in Jackson, Mississippi in the 1960s
1. Which characters did you find the most likeable and why?Did you have a favourite character
2. What did you think motivated Abileen?
3. Do you think people's attitudes and behaviour can be forgiven because it is the norm in the particular culture?
4. How much of a person's character is shaped by the times they live in?
5. Do you think that there are still vestiges of prejudice in relationships where people of colour or different races work for one other?
I hope these questions stimulate some good discussion. Remember, we have until tomorrow morning to discuss them. Please ensure that you head your reply in Bold, Book Group Discussion.
ok i will try and make some sensible points.......
THE HELP - KATHRYN STOCKETT
Set in Jackson, Mississippi in the 1960s
1. Which characters did you find the most likeable and why?Did you have a favourite character
I liked and sympathised with most of the characters....but its difficult to say who was the most likeable, cos they were all presented with flaws........
For me the two central characters....the black maid abilene..who has looked after so many children and who is still grieving for her son.....and the white journalist....are the most likeable...
THE HELP - KATHRYN STOCKETT
Set in Jackson, Mississippi in the 1960s
2. What did you think motivated Abileen?
Its difficult to say what motivated her....I think there is a sense of desperation...that having lost her son she has nothing else she values .....left to lose.....
of course there is the massive sense of injustice...especially the whole thing about having to use the outside toilet...and needing an special toilet to use....when she is responsible for intimate daily care for the children.....
and I think it is something that has been brewing inside her for her whole life.....she was smart at school, but had to leave to earn money......and up to this point has always been too busy and lacked the opportunity or support to do anything about it.
but of course there is also the huge sense of irony that this book was written by a white girl who had grown up in the deep south and these are her memories of her childhood, and her memories of her childhood servants......
THE HELP - KATHRYN STOCKETT
Set in Jackson, Mississippi in the 1960s
3. Do you think people's attitudes and behaviour can be forgiven because it is the norm in the particular culture?
wow this is an incredible question.......
and one that causes so so much debate....
I dont honestly know........I would love to be entirely idealistic and say no of course not........peoples attitudes and behaviour cannot be forgiven just because its the norm in a particular culture to treat black people like second class citizens...that never makes it right or ok...
and there are a whole load of other attitudes and behaviours that exist as well......for instance the chavvy behaviour exhibited by the TOWIE girls and boys...where money and appearance is seen as everything......
or the different standards and behaviour between rich people with money and poor people who are dependent on them for their existance......
I read the story of Johnny Cash...who grew up dirt poor in the deep south....and his is a story of massive poverty and deprivation as well...... and its also the same kind of period as this book.....
so to some extent the issues raised in this book arent just about the colour of anyones skin...they are about the constant issues of poverty ...education etc.....
Part of me, finds it difficult to condemn the ignorant women who rely on their black servants.....the way they behave seems so different depending on what kind of personality they have....some women are good employers who care and look after their servants well....and some are dreadful employers....who treat their servants badly.....almost as if they were still slaves.....
so its the same kind of mind set to today....some people are good and decent ....and some arent......
Ive been born and brought up in an environment where all kinds of equality are accepted and promoted....as normal...and the idea of discriminating against someone for the colour of their skin or because of their gender...sounds totally totally wrong......
but I would be incredibly naive to think that just because this attitude exists in the uk...today...that this viewpoint is accepted everywhere else.....
discrimination is still an issue today...and we still need to be aware of it and to campaign against it.....
look at all the discussion about the euro football matches in the ukraine......
Its difficult to say what motivated her....I think there is a sense of desperation...that having lost her son she has nothing else she values .....left to lose.....
of course there is the massive sense of injustice...especially the whole thing about having to use the outside toilet...and needing an special toilet to use....when she is responsible for intimate daily care for the children.....
and I think it is something that has been brewing inside her for her whole life.....she was smart at school, but had to leave to earn money......and up to this point has always been too busy and lacked the opportunity or support to do anything about it.
but of course there is also the huge sense of irony that this book was written by a white girl who had grown up in the deep south and these are her memories of her childhood, and her memories of her childhood servants......
Book Group Discussion
I think you are probably right about Abilene. I agree that the outside toilet was the last straw.
Not much really (to my knowledge) been written about the treatment of black 'help'. Being born and brought up in the liberal North, I could never understand why there was discrimination. There was also discrimination at that time against Catholics and Jews too.
The 60s was a time of change - particularly with the Civil Rights and Anti-Vietnam War movement. More and more support was coming from liberal whites and blacks themselves were leading protests, gaining media attention.
I dont honestly know........I would love to be entirely idealistic and say no of course not........peoples attitudes and behaviour cannot be forgiven just because its the norm in a particular culture to treat black people like second class citizens...that never makes it right or ok...
and there are a whole load of other attitudes and behaviours that exist as well......for instance the chavvy behaviour exhibited by the TOWIE girls and boys...where money and appearance is seen as everything......
or the different standards and behaviour between rich people with money and poor people who are dependent on them for their existance......
I read the story of Johnny Cash...who grew up dirt poor in the deep south....and his is a story of massive poverty and deprivation as well...... and its also the same kind of period as this book.....
so to some extent the issues raised in this book arent just about the colour of anyones skin...they are about the constant issues of poverty ...education etc.....
Part of me, finds it difficult to condemn the ignorant women who rely on their black servants.....the way they behave seems so different depending on what kind of personality they have....some women are good employers who care and look after their servants well....and some are dreadful employers....who treat their servants badly.....almost as if they were still slaves.....
so its the same kind of mind set to today....some people are good and decent ....and some arent......
Ive been born and brought up in an environment where all kinds of equality are accepted and promoted....as normal...and the idea of discriminating against someone for the colour of their skin or because of their gender...sounds totally totally wrong......
but I would be incredibly naive to think that just because this attitude exists in the uk...today...that this viewpoint is accepted everywhere else.....
discrimination is still an issue today...and we still need to be aware of it and to campaign against it.....
look at all the discussion about the euro football matches in the ukraine......
ignorance should never be an excuse.....
Book Group Discussion
Ignorance should never be an excuse I agree but I think there is something in human nature that wants to 'surpress, bully, discriminate' - I really do. If there wasn't, I don't think there would still be the Klu Klux Klan or extreme groups.
The only way is education. What I could never understand was that some of the people who were the most 'racist' considered themselves good Christians. How could they be?
You bring up the point about Johnny Cash. He was born during the Depression I think, and in the South particularly in the Ozark mountains the poverty was extreme - and was even when I was in school. I remember our school sending clothes, books and toys to the children in Appalachia. There is also evidence that some poor white people - particularly children - were sold into slavery before the American Civil War. As I said before I think there is something innate in the human psyche that wants to 'bully' or 'discriminate' - perhaps it is a lashing out of their own inadequacies or frustration - who knows.
Having black servants - or servants at all - was a symbol of wealth going back to pre-Civil War times in the US. Mississippi and Arkansas and Alabama were and I think still are very poor states with large black populations with employment a huge problem - being a servant or going into the armed forces were usually the only options open for work. If a black child showed academic promise, they usually went to black-only colleges and universities. You know even during WWII there were black-only regiments. There are still colleges with predominantly black students such as Howard University in Washington, DC.
Ignorance should never be an excuse I agree but I think there is something in human nature that wants to 'surpress, bully, discriminate' - I really do. If there wasn't, I don't think there would still be the Klu Klux Klan or extreme groups.
The only way is education. What I could never understand was that some of the people who were the most 'racist' considered themselves good Christians. How could they be?
You bring up the point about Johnny Cash. He was born during the Depression I think, and in the South particularly in the Ozark mountains the poverty was extreme - and was even when I was in school. I remember our school sending clothes, books and toys to the children in Appalachia. There is also evidence that some poor white people - particularly children - were sold into slavery before the American Civil War. As I said before I think there is something innate in the human psyche that wants to 'bully' or 'discriminate' - perhaps it is a lashing out of their own inadequacies or frustration - who knows.
Having black servants - or servants at all - was a symbol of wealth going back to pre-Civil War times in the US. Mississippi and Arkansas and Alabama were and I think still are very poor states with large black populations with employment a huge problem - being a servant or going into the armed forces were usually the only options open for work. If a black child showed academic promise, they usually went to black-only colleges and universities. You know even during WWII there were black-only regiments. There are still colleges with predominantly black students such as Howard University in Washington, DC.
There are 2 issues that interest me about The Help. But first of all, I should say I thoroughly enjoyed reading it. I loved the way all the characters were drawn (based on reality). It was a book that made me laugh, cry, feel angry, exasperation. I read it before I saw the film (which I thought was a good adaptation).
One issue for me - which seemed to cause some upset at the time - was whether a white woman should have written this book. Critics (primarily in the US) described it as patronising. I think it was great that this book was written - doesn't matter who by. I'm sure there have been books on a similar subject written by black writers too. In fact, I know there have but I can't recall them atm. Obviously they are going to write from a different perspective and probably with a great deal more anger.
What was shocking to me was that this book takes place in a period not that long ago. I know there is still anti-black feeling in the US and terrible things have happened but that white women should still treat their black servants/slaves in the way some of them do in the book is unbelievable in this day and age. Imagine my surprise when a colleague told me that her cousin lives in the same area and even today the scenarios described in The Help and the way they treat their black servants is commonplace. She visited and said she felt very uncomfortable there.
I don't think there is any reason why people shouldn't have servants - it's a job but to treat people in a dismissive contemptuous way just because of the colour of their skin instead of as someone who is fulfilling an important paid role in your household I find abhorrent. I think it happens in this country too with Filipino women. Women in such jobs are far too often regarded as 'slaves'.
Ignorance should never be an excuse I agree but I think there is something in human nature that wants to 'surpress, bully, discriminate' - I really do. If there wasn't, I don't think there would still be the Klu Klux Klan or extreme groups.
The only way is education. What I could never understand was that some of the people who were the most 'racist' considered themselves good Christians. How could they be?
You bring up the point about Johnny Cash. He was born during the Depression I think, and in the South particularly in the Ozark mountains the poverty was extreme - and was even when I was in school. I remember our school sending clothes, books and toys to the children in Appalachia. There is also evidence that some poor white people - particularly children - were sold into slavery before the American Civil War. As I said before I think there is something innate in the human psyche that wants to 'bully' or 'discriminate' - perhaps it is a lashing out of their own inadequacies or frustration - who knows.
Having black servants - or servants at all - was a symbol of wealth going back to pre-Civil War times in the US. Mississippi and Arkansas and Alabama were and I think still are very poor states with large black populations with employment a huge problem - being a servant or going into the armed forces were usually the only options open for work. If a black child showed academic promise, they usually went to black-only colleges and universities. You know even during WWII there were black-only regiments. There are still colleges with predominantly black students such as Howard University in Washington, DC.
I think what I found incredible from the book is that it is talking about a period in the 60s that is within living memory...at a time when I had no idea that it was so bad.....
there are fascinating parallel also to be drawn with the english .....and the raj...in India and the attitude towards people from the commonwealth countries..
I studied a Passage to India, by EM Forster, as an A level text ...and there is so much in that book about the differences between cultural groups and how hard it is for different groups to understand each other.... and in this particular instance...the british empire was based on exploitation of the native cultures.....and a fascinating study of the period of the british ruling over india....
that book also tackles discrimination, and how different cultures treat servants...and different racial groups....and women......
but what I think is scary...is that a book like that ...is an interestiing A level text.....but it wasnt until I was much older that I really appreciated what an incredible book it really was...
as in the Help.....its all very well to be young and idealistic...like the girl who writes the book......but....you have to be incredibly careful not to make the situation worse...for those involved....
i know there is a saying that you have to break eggs to make an omlette....and in this context it kind of implies some people are going to end up badly hurt before any kind of change can happen.... and we do see this happen in the book....there is a kind of pivotal moment ...
when things could get much much worse for the black nursemaids.....but then everything turns and works out ok in the end.....
Comments
That's the thing with conspiracy theorists. They're bound to be right eventually . . . . but it doesn't really matter cos they've been wrong so many other times!
Really not sure I can be bothered with this BB.:( BB12 was a waste of my time investment, and this series looks to be cut from the same cloth. Let me know if anything dramatic happens, or there's some unique personality in there.
40 days now . . . .
I'm not sure anything will match BB11 for me John James was a bit special.
BB also lacks something without live feed.
Thanks.
BIB
so our countdown has begun as well
Looks like it.
I wonder what our countdown is for ?
weve had the logical one that its for MLD fashion launch.....
shall we think of some more inventive ones as well.....???
40 days until John.....swims with dolphins.....
goes wing walking on an airplane....
goes home again...to Oz...
40 days until JOhn has a tea party at london zoo...or the aquarium........with his fans and supporters !!!!
Oooh - I like a challenge!:D
40 days until he gets married :eek:
goes into BB to stir things up
appears in a new show called 'What John Did in Oz'
I like the idea of that one. Knowing our look its 40 days until he tweets again.
Well we could get looky
For a laugh I googled 'what happens in 40 days' and this is one item that came up
Morning all.
Alex, I've resisted this BB and as far as I can see from Bit on the Side (watched 5 minutes of it) it is the same as last year. Luckily I have other things to keep me busy - Lewis, reading book, residents' groups etc.
Anyway, as requested, I am listing below the discussion questions.
We can discuss it until this time tomorrow.
Set in Jackson, Mississippi in the 1960s
1. Which characters did you find the most likeable and why?Did you have a favourite character
2. What did you think motivated Abileen?
3. Do you think people's attitudes and behaviour can be forgiven because it is the norm in the particular culture?
4. How much of a person's character is shaped by the times they live in?
5. Do you think that there are still vestiges of prejudice in relationships where people of colour or different races work for one other?
I hope these questions stimulate some good discussion. Remember, we have until tomorrow morning to discuss them. Please ensure that you head your reply in Bold, Book Group Discussion.
Muggins - - - really!!!:D:D:D;)
actually its not just a lack of live feed......
its also the lack of catch ups........Im remembering how most summers .....Im on school holidays....so have time in the mornings and afternoons to watch daytime TV....
BB catch up programmes and live feed used to fill this gap....im normally doing bits and bobs...so dont really want to sit down and watch a film.....so a half hour programme would fill the gaps nicely.....
if you arent that interested ......then there isnt much incentive to get involved.......
but maybe thats deliberate....they arent going for a daytime audience at all???
nyannie thanks for the book group questions....ill look properly in a minute..
love m xx
So we're on a count down but as usual we don't have a bloomin' clue what for,
Have printed off the questions for the book club discussion so I can have a peruse over brekkies. Thanks nyannie.
Muggins.....:eek: gosh that link should have come with a warning it's far too early
I'm with nyannie and Alex, can't be bothered with BB anymore. I also watched 5 mins of BBOTS, 5 mins of my life I won't get back.
I too have far more interesting things to do. I have a pile of books (gonna have to get started on Dark Fire, it's a BIG book nyannie), the sky planner is nearly full with unwatched episodes of Touch, Alcatraz, Castle, Hawaii Five O and Lewis, and of course I've started my affair with Chris Packham again.
Then there's a grand prix this weekend (only highlights unfortunately) but I utterly refuse to pay another £100 pounds a year to Sky for the ten live races not covered by the BBC.:mad: Sorry rant over!
And then there's the decluttering that I've embarked on. No point in paying to have stuff moved to a new home only to arrive and wonder why you bothered to pack it in the first place. My sister in law (who moved last year) advised me to be ruthless and then when you think you're done be ruthless all over again.
Oh and we've been adopted by a little grey cat who's been hanging round our garden for a couple of weeks and is now residing in the conservatory furniture that's being stored under plastic in the garden. She's made herself at home and comes in for meals and a sleep on the kitchen chair! She's not chipped unfortunately and we are now trying to find her owner. She's such a sweet natured and friendly little thing, someone must be missing her. I can't keep her as she is taking far too much interest in Dizzy and Jazz (the budgies). I'm on constant alert!!:eek:
Blimey I'm knackered, time for a cuppa.:D
It looks like you have a new family member with the cat.....:D.
loads of pets have been abandoned by families who cant afford them at the moment,,,,,,,,at least if she lives in the garden she can be kept away from the budgies......
that is the one huge problem with cats....they are so good at hunting.....but at least it means we dont have any live mice in the house.....( unless the dratted cats bring them in..!!!)
We have a couple of mice homes in the garden under the sheds and old garage....I try not to use any artificial pesticides or poisons in the garden....so the garden is full of mice....snails....slugs and frogs......and ants.....
we need to declutter so badly.....we have so much junk....that might come in useful one day..........
that is the beauty of moving...you have to force yourself to be ruthless and get rid of things.....
ok i will try and make some sensible points.......
I liked and sympathised with most of the characters....but its difficult to say who was the most likeable, cos they were all presented with flaws........
For me the two central characters....the black maid abilene..who has looked after so many children and who is still grieving for her son.....and the white journalist....are the most likeable...
Its difficult to say what motivated her....I think there is a sense of desperation...that having lost her son she has nothing else she values .....left to lose.....
of course there is the massive sense of injustice...especially the whole thing about having to use the outside toilet...and needing an special toilet to use....when she is responsible for intimate daily care for the children.....
and I think it is something that has been brewing inside her for her whole life.....she was smart at school, but had to leave to earn money......and up to this point has always been too busy and lacked the opportunity or support to do anything about it.
but of course there is also the huge sense of irony that this book was written by a white girl who had grown up in the deep south and these are her memories of her childhood, and her memories of her childhood servants......
wow this is an incredible question.......
and one that causes so so much debate....
I dont honestly know........I would love to be entirely idealistic and say no of course not........peoples attitudes and behaviour cannot be forgiven just because its the norm in a particular culture to treat black people like second class citizens...that never makes it right or ok...
and there are a whole load of other attitudes and behaviours that exist as well......for instance the chavvy behaviour exhibited by the TOWIE girls and boys...where money and appearance is seen as everything......
or the different standards and behaviour between rich people with money and poor people who are dependent on them for their existance......
I read the story of Johnny Cash...who grew up dirt poor in the deep south....and his is a story of massive poverty and deprivation as well...... and its also the same kind of period as this book.....
so to some extent the issues raised in this book arent just about the colour of anyones skin...they are about the constant issues of poverty ...education etc.....
Part of me, finds it difficult to condemn the ignorant women who rely on their black servants.....the way they behave seems so different depending on what kind of personality they have....some women are good employers who care and look after their servants well....and some are dreadful employers....who treat their servants badly.....almost as if they were still slaves.....
so its the same kind of mind set to today....some people are good and decent ....and some arent......
Ive been born and brought up in an environment where all kinds of equality are accepted and promoted....as normal...and the idea of discriminating against someone for the colour of their skin or because of their gender...sounds totally totally wrong......
but I would be incredibly naive to think that just because this attitude exists in the uk...today...that this viewpoint is accepted everywhere else.....
discrimination is still an issue today...and we still need to be aware of it and to campaign against it.....
look at all the discussion about the euro football matches in the ukraine......
ignorance should never be an excuse.....
Book Group Discussion
I think you are probably right about Abilene. I agree that the outside toilet was the last straw.
Not much really (to my knowledge) been written about the treatment of black 'help'. Being born and brought up in the liberal North, I could never understand why there was discrimination. There was also discrimination at that time against Catholics and Jews too.
The 60s was a time of change - particularly with the Civil Rights and Anti-Vietnam War movement. More and more support was coming from liberal whites and blacks themselves were leading protests, gaining media attention.
Book Group Discussion
Ignorance should never be an excuse I agree but I think there is something in human nature that wants to 'surpress, bully, discriminate' - I really do. If there wasn't, I don't think there would still be the Klu Klux Klan or extreme groups.
The only way is education. What I could never understand was that some of the people who were the most 'racist' considered themselves good Christians. How could they be?
You bring up the point about Johnny Cash. He was born during the Depression I think, and in the South particularly in the Ozark mountains the poverty was extreme - and was even when I was in school. I remember our school sending clothes, books and toys to the children in Appalachia. There is also evidence that some poor white people - particularly children - were sold into slavery before the American Civil War. As I said before I think there is something innate in the human psyche that wants to 'bully' or 'discriminate' - perhaps it is a lashing out of their own inadequacies or frustration - who knows.
Having black servants - or servants at all - was a symbol of wealth going back to pre-Civil War times in the US. Mississippi and Arkansas and Alabama were and I think still are very poor states with large black populations with employment a huge problem - being a servant or going into the armed forces were usually the only options open for work. If a black child showed academic promise, they usually went to black-only colleges and universities. You know even during WWII there were black-only regiments. There are still colleges with predominantly black students such as Howard University in Washington, DC.
There are 2 issues that interest me about The Help. But first of all, I should say I thoroughly enjoyed reading it. I loved the way all the characters were drawn (based on reality). It was a book that made me laugh, cry, feel angry, exasperation. I read it before I saw the film (which I thought was a good adaptation).
One issue for me - which seemed to cause some upset at the time - was whether a white woman should have written this book. Critics (primarily in the US) described it as patronising. I think it was great that this book was written - doesn't matter who by. I'm sure there have been books on a similar subject written by black writers too. In fact, I know there have but I can't recall them atm. Obviously they are going to write from a different perspective and probably with a great deal more anger.
What was shocking to me was that this book takes place in a period not that long ago. I know there is still anti-black feeling in the US and terrible things have happened but that white women should still treat their black servants/slaves in the way some of them do in the book is unbelievable in this day and age. Imagine my surprise when a colleague told me that her cousin lives in the same area and even today the scenarios described in The Help and the way they treat their black servants is commonplace. She visited and said she felt very uncomfortable there.
I don't think there is any reason why people shouldn't have servants - it's a job but to treat people in a dismissive contemptuous way just because of the colour of their skin instead of as someone who is fulfilling an important paid role in your household I find abhorrent. I think it happens in this country too with Filipino women. Women in such jobs are far too often regarded as 'slaves'.
I think what I found incredible from the book is that it is talking about a period in the 60s that is within living memory...at a time when I had no idea that it was so bad.....
there are fascinating parallel also to be drawn with the english .....and the raj...in India and the attitude towards people from the commonwealth countries..
I studied a Passage to India, by EM Forster, as an A level text ...and there is so much in that book about the differences between cultural groups and how hard it is for different groups to understand each other.... and in this particular instance...the british empire was based on exploitation of the native cultures.....and a fascinating study of the period of the british ruling over india....
that book also tackles discrimination, and how different cultures treat servants...and different racial groups....and women......
but what I think is scary...is that a book like that ...is an interestiing A level text.....but it wasnt until I was much older that I really appreciated what an incredible book it really was...
as in the Help.....its all very well to be young and idealistic...like the girl who writes the book......but....you have to be incredibly careful not to make the situation worse...for those involved....
i know there is a saying that you have to break eggs to make an omlette....and in this context it kind of implies some people are going to end up badly hurt before any kind of change can happen.... and we do see this happen in the book....there is a kind of pivotal moment ...
when things could get much much worse for the black nursemaids.....but then everything turns and works out ok in the end.....