I truly hope so too but I seriously doubt it. The younger population are only part of the voting demographic. 69.9% voted for the ridiculous 8th amendment not that long ago.
Why can you not accept that not everyone is in favour of abortion. We are perfectly within our rights to vote for it only in medical situations. I'm pro choice but pro democracy. Suck it up.
You underestimate the vast role the brain stem plays on other organs. It affects the autonomic nervous system, heart rate and blood pressure etc. Patients who are brain stem dead have a swinging blood pressure which is very difficult to keep stable, even with drugs. We usually need a drug called vasopressin to be administered via infusion and nurses need to adjust the rate in response to the labile blood pressure. This is tricky enough to maintain even for a few hours, let alone months.
The brain also plays a part in temperature control so brain injured patients can be extremely hyperthermic - which obviously has ramifications for the foetus. I also said she was likely to develop VAP (pneumonia) which was likely to affect the outcome.
In my previous post alluding to my experience as an ITU nurse, I could foresee this outcome - as anyone within the ITU environment could. It is terrible that the doctors in Ireland need to go to the courts for permission to do the ethical thing and end this family's suffering.
People outside of the healthcare environment seem to have a very rose-tinted view on how we keep patients alive on life support. Even when we foresee a good outcome there is a rocky path with many potential complications and set backs, not to mention the enormous cost of keeping patients on maximum life support. In the UK where there is a huge demand for ITU beds, it would be unethical to keep someone alive in these circumstances, with no hope of recovery, while denying another patient the use of that valuable ITU bed.
Is Ireland a ''progressive'' country? It has certainly made progress in the last few years but it is definitely stretching credibility to call it one of the most progressive countries in Europe.
Thank you for your knowledgeable posts. The BIBS, yes indeed! How many weeks is it so far that this family have been put though such a hideous ordeal. The children have lost their mother and the parents their daughter. It is grotesque.
A woman doesn't abort her body, she aborts the developing baby body.
Abortion is therefore carried out on the baby's body.
She aborts an unviable parasite that's using her body as a host. If it's a baby, get it out right now and see how well it fares.
I find this deeply unsettling. Consent to anything is not permanent. This woman might have wanted the baby originally but her corpse can hardly consent to being used like that.
Why can you not accept that not everyone is in favour of abortion. We are perfectly within our rights to vote for it only in medical situations. I'm pro choice but pro democracy. Suck it up.
Why so rude? I can also accept a country which rightfully allows abortion and anyone who doesn't want one isn't forced to have one. It's no-one else's business other than the parents involved. I'm pro democracy. In the meantime the UK will always help the Irish women Ireland cruelly and sanctimoniously judge and reject.
A woman doesn't abort her body, she aborts the developing baby body.
Abortion is therefore carried out on the baby's body.
like that makes sense, an abortion is very much carried out on a womans body, a lot of woman have to physically give birth to said babies if they are dead or terminated late due to health problems, does that not happen to their body the? The baby / foetus aborts its body and teleports out of the womb does it.
Even the surgical ones a woman has to have a GA and be operated on and so on and so forth but of course these aren't happening to her body
Good grief! Even worse than I thought then and you think same sex marriage will be voted for?
How the hell can you compare Gay Marriage to Abortion? ... Why should I stand in the way of two people being happy and equal to me or any straight couple in the eyes of the law? - I wholeheartedly support gay marriage and current polls are about 71% support.
I don't support the abortion of healthy children, i'm 23 and not brainwashed by the catholic church. Its a personal view on it, one which I think is shared with the majority in Ireland.
Why so rude? I can also accept a country which rightfully allows abortion and anyone who doesn't want one isn't forced to have one. It's no-one else's business other than the parents involved. I'm pro democracy. In the meantime the UK will always help the Irish women Ireland cruelly and sanctimoniously judge and reject.
Maybe a 24 week gestation baby didnt want to be aborted . Is he asked ?
I have nursed 24 week prem babies and we and they fought hard to keep them alive . No one can deny they are tiny , feeling , fighting humans
Yet on another floor they were aborted
. I cannot condone that in any country
How the hell can you compare Gay Marriage to Abortion? ... Why should I stand in the way of two people being happy and equal to me or any straight couple in the eyes of the law? - I wholeheartedly support gay marriage and current polls are about 71% support.
I don't support the abortion of healthy children, i'm 23 and not brainwashed by the catholic church. Its a personal view on it, one which I think is shared with the majority in Ireland.
What about the abortion of ''unhealthy'' babies, eg if they have a severe disability or if prolonging a pregnancy causes either physical or mental harm to the mother?
It's all very well men having an opinion on abortion but they don't have to carry the baby or undergo the potential complications. Childbirth, even today, can be very dangerous and, in my London hospital, we have frequent ITU admissions of women critically ill following complications during birth.
I don't like the idea of aborting a healthy baby either and I would never have had an abortion myself. I opted out of witnessing or participating in the abortion process during my nurse training (which was my right as a catholic and still remains the rights of catholic healthcare workers in the UK today). However, the reasons for abortion can be multi-factorial and I personally respect the right of any woman to make the decision based on her own reasons. There must be freedom of choice, not a situation where the decision is imposed upon a woman, frequently to the detriment of her mental and physical health.
Perhaps there should be an Irish referendum where only women can vote on a subject that only affects their bodies and their health?
Why can you not accept that not everyone is in favour of abortion. We are perfectly within our rights to vote for it only in medical situations. I'm pro choice but pro democracy. Suck it up.
Reproductive rights are human rights, and no human right should ever be left the whim of a fickle electorate. Blaming democracy is a cop out, and as I said before, what it amounts to is tyranny of the majority.
What about the abortion of ''unhealthy'' babies, eg if they have a severe disability or if prolonging a pregnancy causes either physical or mental harm to the mother?
It's all very well men having an opinion on abortion but they don't have to carry the baby or undergo the potential complications. Childbirth, even today, can be very dangerous and, in my London hospital, we have frequent ITU admissions of women critically ill following complications during birth.
I don't like the idea of aborting a healthy baby either and I would never have had an abortion myself. I opted out of witnessing or participating in the abortion process during my nurse training (which was my right as a catholic and still remains the rights of catholic healthcare workers in the UK today). However, the reasons for abortion can be multi-factorial and I personally respect the right of any woman to make the decision based on her own reasons. There must be freedom of choice, not a situation where the decision is imposed upon a woman, frequently to the detriment of her mental and physical health.
Perhaps there should be an Irish referendum where only women can vote on a subject that only affects their bodies and their health?
I know I probably sound like a b.astard but my only major to abortion is in the event of healthy children - if a mother and father is told their baby will have severe mental complications, the pregnancy was due to rape, the baby wont survive then they have every right to decide themselves IMO.
The idea of aborting a healthy child is to me horrific.. you see Ireland is a democracy, Men and Woman have equal rights in the eyes of the law and constitution and I have to say women have often been the strongest pro-life advocates in the state... its not like us men are holding a gun to their head,
Maybe a 24 week gestation baby didnt want to be aborted . Is he asked ?
I have nursed 24 week prem babies and we and they fought hard to keep them alive . No one can deny they are tiny , feeling , fighting humans Yet on another floor they were aborted
. I cannot condone that in any country
How many and what percentage were actually healthy babies, I am all for people being emotional on the subject but the majority of abortions are performed a lot earlier than 24 weeks. Even at 24 weeks I agree with any woman who has found out her baby will be born with disabilities choosing to have an abortion, in some ways I believe that's the better option than a sub par life of suffering and permanent care.
I know I probably sound like a b.astard but my only major to abortion is in the event of healthy children - if a mother and father is told their baby will have severe mental complications, the pregnancy was due to rape, the baby wont survive then they have every right to decide themselves IMO.
The idea of aborting a healthy child is to me horrific.. you see Ireland is a democracy, Men and Woman have equal rights in the eyes of the law and constitution and I have to say women have often been the strongest pro-life advocates in the state... its not like us men are holding a gun to their head,
Well, I don't like it either but it's not me carrying the baby. I have friends and relatives who've had abortions (mainly Irish catholics) and the decision is not an easy one but usually made after great consideration of the ramifications of carrying that baby. I don't judge, criticise or condemn those women even though I would have personally preferred them to find a way they could have continued with the pregnancy. But it's not my life or really any of my business.
Men and women may have equal rights, to an extent, in a democracy but men have it so much easier in terms of reproduction and consequences. Certainly, the UK is a democratic country and the law is that the mother has the legal right to decide whether to proceed with her pregnancy regardless of the wishes of the father.
I'm Irish but there's an awful lot that I don't like about Ireland. I feel the system in the UK favours the rights of women whereas Ireland is quite backward in that respect.
Well, I don't like it either but it's not me carrying the baby. I have friends and relatives who've had abortions (mainly Irish catholics) and the decision is not an easy one but usually made after great consideration of the ramifications of carrying that baby. I don't judge, criticise or condemn those women even though I would have personally preferred them to find a way they could have continued with the pregnancy. But it's not my life or really any of my business.
Men and women may have equal rights, to an extent, in a democracy but men have it so much easier in terms of reproduction and consequences. Certainly, the UK is a democratic country and the law is that the mother has the legal right to decide whether to proceed with her pregnancy regardless of the wishes of the father.
I'm Irish but there's an awful lot that I don't like about Ireland.
Of course the child has no "choice" in the decision to abort..
I know I probably sound like a b.astard but my only major to abortion is in the event of healthy children - if a mother and father is told their baby will have severe mental complications, the pregnancy was due to rape, the baby wont survive then they have every right to decide themselves IMO.
The idea of aborting a healthy child is to me horrific.. you see Ireland is a democracy, Men and Woman have equal rights in the eyes of the law and constitution and I have to say women have often been the strongest pro-life advocates in the state... its not like us men are holding a gun to their head,
Yet you are prejudiced against any potentially disabled child. You also agree with aborting "healthy babies" if the mother's health is at risk or the perfectly healthy unfortunate outcome of rape. A basic question. Tell me why you or anyone else chose to support the 8th amendment?
Reproductive rights are human rights, and no human right should ever be left the whim of a fickle electorate. Blaming democracy is a cop out, and as I said before, what it amounts to is tyranny of the majority.
I totally agree. This should never ever be an electorate decision, especially in a mainly Catholic country. Human rights will continue to fly out of the window while the Vatican rules.
Of course the child has no "choice" in the decision to abort..
But it's not actually a child with any capacity to decide or be given a ''choice'' - just a collection of cells. Did your excellent Irish education not include biology classes
You are a 23 year old Irish boy who has elected yourself as the spokesman of all Ireland. I would have thought a young man, of your more enlightened generation, would have respect for the rights of women to make their own choices about their own bodies. I respect your opinion on abortion, which, on a personal level, I share, but I would not impose that opinion on every Irish woman.
Yet you are prejudiced against any potentially disabled child. You also agree with aborting "healthy babies" if the mother's health is at risk or the unfortunate outcome of rape. Tell me why do you support the 8th amendment?
Well that's my view on it - no couple plans to have a disabled child... if they think the would not be able to look after that child then I think they have the right to choose.
The problem with pregnancy and rape is the fact she could have massive physiological problems if she is forced to carry the child. I support the 8th amendment because it ensures an unborn child has the same rights as me or a toddler walking about. Our Declaration of Independence decreed that we would cherish "all of the children of the nation equally"..To abort a healthy child is wrong IMO - its as simple as that.
But it's not actually a child with any capacity to decide or be given a ''choice'' - just a collection of cells. Did your excellent Irish education not include biology classes
You are a 23 year old Irish boy who has elected yourself as the spokesman of all Ireland. I would have thought a young man, of your more enlightened generation, would have respect for the rights of women to make their own choices about their own bodies. I respect your opinion on abortion, which I share, but I would not impose that opinion on every Irish woman.
Exactly. I would never have chosen abortion either. I was fortunate enough not to have to. At least I had the choice.
But it's not actually a child with any capacity to decide or be given a ''choice'' - just a collection of cells. Did your excellent Irish education not include biology classes
You are a 23 year old Irish boy who has elected yourself as the spokesman of all Ireland. I would have thought a young man, of your more enlightened generation, would have respect for the rights of women to make their own choices about their own bodies. I respect your opinion on abortion, which I share, but I would not impose that opinion on every Irish woman.
I have never once said that...
I don't wish to impose anything on anyone but I don't agree with abortion on demand and if there was a referendum in the morning I would vote that way.
Well that's my view on it - no couple plans to have a disabled child... if they think the would not be able to look after that child then I think they have the right to choose.
The problem with pregnancy and rape is the fact she could have massive physiological problems if she is forced to carry the child. I support the 8th amendment because it ensures an unborn child has the same rights as me or a toddler walking about. Our Declaration of Independence decreed that we would cherish "all of the children of the nation equally"..To abort a healthy child is wrong IMO - its as simple as that.
That is just confirming everything I have questioned. Blatant hypocrisy. An unhealthy foetus doesn't have any rights, if the parents choose abortion, because they are right in you mind in not being able to cope. That is a human life to be equally cherished , surely?. Have you any experience of disabled children? Why should they be aborted and not carried to full term and put up for adoption? You apply the same logic to rape victims aborting a perfectly healthy foetus. Why? That baby could also be adopted. How is that cherishing all of the nation equally? Equal rights for a foetus means equal rights in my head, yet it doesn't seem to in yours.
Well that's my view on it - no couple plans to have a disabled child... if they think the would not be able to look after that child then I think they have the right to choose.
The problem with pregnancy and rape is the fact she could have massive physiological problems if she is forced to carry the child. I support the 8th amendment because it ensures an unborn child has the same rights as me or a toddler walking about. Our Declaration of Independence decreed that we would cherish "all of the children of the nation equally"..To abort a healthy child is wrong IMO - its as simple as that.
I'll ask you again why you so easily dismiss being compelled to go through with an unwanted pregnancy, regardless of rape?
Does the 8th amendment state that fetuses conceived through rape have fewer rights? If not, how can you say you support it?
I don't wish to impose anything on anyone but I don't agree with abortion on demand and if there was a referendum in the morning I would vote that way.
Thank you for your knowledgeable posts. The BIBS, yes indeed! How many weeks is it so far that this family have been put though such a hideous ordeal. The children have lost their mother and the parents their daughter. It is grotesque.
Yep their posts are very interesting. Makes me feel even sadder for the family who were likely to be aware of all the information recently given about this ladies condition and that's obviously why they choose the stance they have. They basically had a whole country judging and thinking they had a right to tell them to keep that child and put their own child through something disgusting (IMO) when really none of these people had any clue about what was really going on.
I don't wish to impose anything on anyone but I don't agree with abortion on demand and if there was a referendum in the morning I would vote that way.
No, but it is implied when you continuously state ''we Irish''.
I don't agree with abortion ''on demand'' but I don't believe the referendum question is phrased like that? It seems to be no abortion at all, in any circumstances..........
You stated that you believed abortion might be acceptable if the child was disabled or the mother had been raped. That can be fraught with dilemmas. It can take quite a while for a rape prosecution to come to trial, what if there's no evidence and surely it would depend on the extent of the disability? Many disabled children are wanted and much loved. My dying cousin carried on with her pregnancy (although she was offered an abortion) even though it delayed her treatment and the baby was born with Downs - he is a valuable and much loved member of the family. What about the ''rights'' of the disabled?
There are also several potential consequences for women giving birth to healthy babies. Repeated pregnancy can be harmful to health, perhaps there is little money, poor family dynamics, poor housing conditions, potential safe guarding issues etc. Perhaps the woman is a teenager or the pregnancy is a result of a one night stand. There are so many factors that come to play when women are deciding about proceeding with their unexpected, unplanned pregnancies.
Comments
Why can you not accept that not everyone is in favour of abortion. We are perfectly within our rights to vote for it only in medical situations. I'm pro choice but pro democracy. Suck it up.
Thank you for your knowledgeable posts. The BIBS, yes indeed! How many weeks is it so far that this family have been put though such a hideous ordeal. The children have lost their mother and the parents their daughter. It is grotesque.
She aborts an unviable parasite that's using her body as a host. If it's a baby, get it out right now and see how well it fares.
I find this deeply unsettling. Consent to anything is not permanent. This woman might have wanted the baby originally but her corpse can hardly consent to being used like that.
Why so rude? I can also accept a country which rightfully allows abortion and anyone who doesn't want one isn't forced to have one. It's no-one else's business other than the parents involved. I'm pro democracy. In the meantime the UK will always help the Irish women Ireland cruelly and sanctimoniously judge and reject.
like that makes sense, an abortion is very much carried out on a womans body, a lot of woman have to physically give birth to said babies if they are dead or terminated late due to health problems, does that not happen to their body the? The baby / foetus aborts its body and teleports out of the womb does it.
Even the surgical ones a woman has to have a GA and be operated on and so on and so forth but of course these aren't happening to her body
As I said, I truly hope so.
I don't support the abortion of healthy children, i'm 23 and not brainwashed by the catholic church. Its a personal view on it, one which I think is shared with the majority in Ireland.
Maybe a 24 week gestation baby didnt want to be aborted . Is he asked ?
I have nursed 24 week prem babies and we and they fought hard to keep them alive . No one can deny they are tiny , feeling , fighting humans
Yet on another floor they were aborted
. I cannot condone that in any country
What about the abortion of ''unhealthy'' babies, eg if they have a severe disability or if prolonging a pregnancy causes either physical or mental harm to the mother?
It's all very well men having an opinion on abortion but they don't have to carry the baby or undergo the potential complications. Childbirth, even today, can be very dangerous and, in my London hospital, we have frequent ITU admissions of women critically ill following complications during birth.
I don't like the idea of aborting a healthy baby either and I would never have had an abortion myself. I opted out of witnessing or participating in the abortion process during my nurse training (which was my right as a catholic and still remains the rights of catholic healthcare workers in the UK today). However, the reasons for abortion can be multi-factorial and I personally respect the right of any woman to make the decision based on her own reasons. There must be freedom of choice, not a situation where the decision is imposed upon a woman, frequently to the detriment of her mental and physical health.
Perhaps there should be an Irish referendum where only women can vote on a subject that only affects their bodies and their health?
Reproductive rights are human rights, and no human right should ever be left the whim of a fickle electorate. Blaming democracy is a cop out, and as I said before, what it amounts to is tyranny of the majority.
The idea of aborting a healthy child is to me horrific.. you see Ireland is a democracy, Men and Woman have equal rights in the eyes of the law and constitution and I have to say women have often been the strongest pro-life advocates in the state... its not like us men are holding a gun to their head,
How many and what percentage were actually healthy babies, I am all for people being emotional on the subject but the majority of abortions are performed a lot earlier than 24 weeks. Even at 24 weeks I agree with any woman who has found out her baby will be born with disabilities choosing to have an abortion, in some ways I believe that's the better option than a sub par life of suffering and permanent care.
Well, I don't like it either but it's not me carrying the baby. I have friends and relatives who've had abortions (mainly Irish catholics) and the decision is not an easy one but usually made after great consideration of the ramifications of carrying that baby. I don't judge, criticise or condemn those women even though I would have personally preferred them to find a way they could have continued with the pregnancy. But it's not my life or really any of my business.
Men and women may have equal rights, to an extent, in a democracy but men have it so much easier in terms of reproduction and consequences. Certainly, the UK is a democratic country and the law is that the mother has the legal right to decide whether to proceed with her pregnancy regardless of the wishes of the father.
I'm Irish but there's an awful lot that I don't like about Ireland. I feel the system in the UK favours the rights of women whereas Ireland is quite backward in that respect.
Yet you are prejudiced against any potentially disabled child. You also agree with aborting "healthy babies" if the mother's health is at risk or the perfectly healthy unfortunate outcome of rape. A basic question. Tell me why you or anyone else chose to support the 8th amendment?
I totally agree. This should never ever be an electorate decision, especially in a mainly Catholic country. Human rights will continue to fly out of the window while the Vatican rules.
But it's not actually a child with any capacity to decide or be given a ''choice'' - just a collection of cells. Did your excellent Irish education not include biology classes
You are a 23 year old Irish boy who has elected yourself as the spokesman of all Ireland. I would have thought a young man, of your more enlightened generation, would have respect for the rights of women to make their own choices about their own bodies. I respect your opinion on abortion, which, on a personal level, I share, but I would not impose that opinion on every Irish woman.
The problem with pregnancy and rape is the fact she could have massive physiological problems if she is forced to carry the child. I support the 8th amendment because it ensures an unborn child has the same rights as me or a toddler walking about. Our Declaration of Independence decreed that we would cherish "all of the children of the nation equally"..To abort a healthy child is wrong IMO - its as simple as that.
Exactly. I would never have chosen abortion either. I was fortunate enough not to have to. At least I had the choice.
I don't wish to impose anything on anyone but I don't agree with abortion on demand and if there was a referendum in the morning I would vote that way.
That is just confirming everything I have questioned. Blatant hypocrisy. An unhealthy foetus doesn't have any rights, if the parents choose abortion, because they are right in you mind in not being able to cope. That is a human life to be equally cherished , surely?. Have you any experience of disabled children? Why should they be aborted and not carried to full term and put up for adoption? You apply the same logic to rape victims aborting a perfectly healthy foetus. Why? That baby could also be adopted. How is that cherishing all of the nation equally? Equal rights for a foetus means equal rights in my head, yet it doesn't seem to in yours.
I'll ask you again why you so easily dismiss being compelled to go through with an unwanted pregnancy, regardless of rape?
Does the 8th amendment state that fetuses conceived through rape have fewer rights? If not, how can you say you support it?
Nope but that's how you come across.
Yep their posts are very interesting. Makes me feel even sadder for the family who were likely to be aware of all the information recently given about this ladies condition and that's obviously why they choose the stance they have. They basically had a whole country judging and thinking they had a right to tell them to keep that child and put their own child through something disgusting (IMO) when really none of these people had any clue about what was really going on.
No, but it is implied when you continuously state ''we Irish''.
I don't agree with abortion ''on demand'' but I don't believe the referendum question is phrased like that? It seems to be no abortion at all, in any circumstances..........
You stated that you believed abortion might be acceptable if the child was disabled or the mother had been raped. That can be fraught with dilemmas. It can take quite a while for a rape prosecution to come to trial, what if there's no evidence and surely it would depend on the extent of the disability? Many disabled children are wanted and much loved. My dying cousin carried on with her pregnancy (although she was offered an abortion) even though it delayed her treatment and the baby was born with Downs - he is a valuable and much loved member of the family. What about the ''rights'' of the disabled?
There are also several potential consequences for women giving birth to healthy babies. Repeated pregnancy can be harmful to health, perhaps there is little money, poor family dynamics, poor housing conditions, potential safe guarding issues etc. Perhaps the woman is a teenager or the pregnancy is a result of a one night stand. There are so many factors that come to play when women are deciding about proceeding with their unexpected, unplanned pregnancies.