what happens to Greece if they default and leave the Euro?

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  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 18,071
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    angel1ka wrote: »
    It is very easy, you know, for Merkel to go around pretending to be 'tough' on Greece in order to appease her own electorate...it is very easy for her to use lazy stereotypes and tell the southern European to 'work harder' (are xenophobic statements like that acceptable in Germany?)...The fact of the matter is, however, that she, and other European leaders, actually seem anxious to hand over the money to Greece. WHY?.

    We are in one currency. So since Greece is the weakest member regarding debts to safe us and you from downfall.

    I haven;t said Southern people are lazy. I would appreciate if you would stop throwing that in my face if via Angela or suppressed threats.

    I actually try to understand your countries situation. I have learned when the debts were made etc. The figures 19th Century Fox found were interesting.
    But only because you explain it doesn't mean I need to agree with you on all points.

    I also agree with you that the bankers that gave loans to irresponsible people should be taken into responsibility. Actually your best friend Angela tried that but Britain refused. All of Germany was outraged about the British position. I even had to answer of why in a Computer Game with some friends.

    Cameron et al protects the City as a big UK tax payer.

    In the upcoming left move in further elections this point will maybe dealt with on a national basis. The German Bank had to loose some blood. So did smaller investors.

    Nevertheless we live in the real world and the German Chancellor has no chance to control the markets more than you so she is trying to contain it.

    There is sadly often a discrepancy of what is correct and what is practical. She and Sarkozy got a 50% reduction.

    She is gonna loose now anyway partly as after all that back and forth you are going seemingly out of the Euro anyway. But one never knows the FDP got into NRW today after months of 2% and jokes.

    What is quite funny though is that your news papers put a wheel chair driver and a woman in Nazi uniforms. One would have been rated as breeder and the other one euthanised. :D
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 18,071
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    mRebel wrote: »
    We're not quite saying everythings fine with Greece, but the link I gave regarding the counyties economy pre-crisis, from the OECD, and the evidence given by angelka is more reliable than that supplied by some here. I mean, Greek railway cleaners on 60 grand a year! Nobody with any sense believes that. Come on, let's e real.

    Don;t think I ever quoted that? I always heard about tax not being paid by all or in a very messy fashion, falsified state statistics etc. One reason that the Euro people seemingly were pissed off about was that they were lied to. Hence the move towards more control and closed bank accounts.

    Maybe there is a lack of understanding from the Euro position but also an lack of understanding the other way round. If you lie to people, or even if they only see it as lies, whatever happens they gonna be pissed off.

    I don't think the Syriza guy is very good either at solving not the theoretical problem but the practical problem for his country.

    I mean this
    http://www.amazon.co.uk/Greeces-Odious-Debt-Political-Investment/dp/0857287710
    is all nice and well if you are the USA or Ecuador with no Euro attached.

    Totally like the idea as it would control credit sharks and improper lending but in the real world where Greece is now week, I am not sure if that;s practical,
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 234
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    If Greece leaves the Euro it will have a future independent of the faceless Franco-German elites who minister to the rise of Federal Europe.
  • RelugusRelugus Posts: 12,044
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    mRebel wrote: »
    State control of banks is extreme? Didn't you notice that lack of state control of banks led to a pretty extreme situation?
    Taxation of business is extreme? This is getting silly.
    A reduction of spending on arms would be seen as extreme by Germany, as so much of the high Greek arms spending is with German companies, and Merkel insisted that Greek spending cuts should NOT include this.
    Turkey seeks to join the EU, and better relations with the west in general, so obviously they're not about to attack Greece.
    Greek labour laws did not cause the problem, banks who were so stupid they didn't notice lending yet more to Greece was risky were the culprits.

    Banks might as well be state controlled, seeing as the taxpayer bails them out.
  • LysandarLysandar Posts: 1,240
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    If Greece leaves the Euro, it will have to borrow from whoever to stay alive.
    The interest rates would be astronomical, far worse conditions than the present Euro bail out plan.
    The World's banks already in a parlous state, would be very wary of lending.
    So, between a rock and a hard place.
    ..and this is only Greece, at the moment!
  • allaortaallaorta Posts: 19,050
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    Doc Shmok wrote: »
    We are in one currency. So since Greece is the weakest member regarding debts to safe us and you from downfall.

    I haven;t said Southern people are lazy. I would appreciate if you would stop throwing that in my face if via Angela or suppressed threats.

    I actually try to understand your countries situation. I have learned when the debts were made etc. The figures 19th Century Fox found were interesting.
    But only because you explain it doesn't mean I need to agree with you on all points.

    I also agree with you that the bankers that gave loans to irresponsible people should be taken into responsibility. Actually your best friend Angela tried that but Britain refused. All of Germany was outraged about the British position. I even had to answer of why in a Computer Game with some friends.

    Cameron et al protects the City as a big UK tax payer.

    In the upcoming left move in further elections this point will maybe dealt with on a national basis. The German Bank had to loose some blood. So did smaller investors.

    Nevertheless we live in the real world and the German Chancellor has no chance to control the markets more than you so she is trying to contain it.

    There is sadly often a discrepancy of what is correct and what is practical. She and Sarkozy got a 50% reduction.

    She is gonna loose now anyway partly as after all that back and forth you are going seemingly out of the Euro anyway. But one never knows the FDP got into NRW today after months of 2% and jokes.

    What is quite funny though is that your news papers put a wheel chair driver and a woman in Nazi uniforms. One would have been rated as breeder and the other one euthanised. :D

    Do you think the German/French led Eurozone was irresponsible in allowing countries to join who didn't fulfill the criteria for admission? Do you think they should accept much of the blame for this?
  • rusty123rusty123 Posts: 22,872
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    If I'm not mistaken the Greeks don't want to leave the euro and under their terms of membership would have to leave the EU as well if they did.

    They are seeking a way to minimise the austerity measures being thrust upon them but if the Germans dig their heels in it doesn't look like Greece has much of an option other than to take those austerity measures on the chin if they want to stay in the EU.
  • Nick1966Nick1966 Posts: 15,742
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    Lysandar wrote: »
    If Greece leaves the Euro, it will have to borrow from whoever to stay alive.

    Why would any bank, pension fund or private lender possibly want to lend any money to the Greek government ?
  • rusty123rusty123 Posts: 22,872
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    allaorta wrote: »
    Do you think the German/French led Eurozone was irresponsible in allowing countries to join who didn't fulfill the criteria for admission? Do you think they should accept much of the blame for this?

    To a point they were irresponsible but it takes two to tango and the lion's share of the blame has to lie with the greeks themselves.
  • Nick1966Nick1966 Posts: 15,742
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    Are there Greek political parties whose stated policy aim is leave the euro and adopt a replacement currency ?

    And how well are these parties doing ?
  • Nick1966Nick1966 Posts: 15,742
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    If Greece leaves the Euro it will have a future independent of the faceless Franco-German elites who minister to the rise of Federal Europe.

    Based on the results from the recent general election, how many Greeks would like to leave the Euro and adopt a new currency ?
  • jmclaughjmclaugh Posts: 63,988
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    Nick1966 wrote: »
    Are there Greek political parties whose stated policy aim is leave the euro and adopt a replacement currency ?

    Not that I know of.
  • Nick1966Nick1966 Posts: 15,742
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    jmclaugh wrote: »
    Not that I know of.

    So no political parties have been elected in Greece on policy to leave the euro and adopt a new currency.

    Though it looks like the bulk of Greek voters reject the bail out and austerity.

    So do the Greeks want:
    • the bail out money cancelled
    • no austerity and
    • to stay in the Euro.

    ?
  • jmclaughjmclaugh Posts: 63,988
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    Nick1966 wrote: »
    So no political parties have been elected in Greece on policy to leave the euro and adopt a new currency.

    Though it looks like the bulk of Greek voters reject the bail out and austerity.

    So do the Greeks want:
    • the bail out money cancelled
    • no austerity and
    • to stay in the Euro.

    ?
    • the bail out money
    • no austerity and
    • to stay in the Euro.
  • Nick1966Nick1966 Posts: 15,742
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    jmclaugh wrote: »
    • the bail out money
    • no austerity and
    • to stay in the Euro.

    The sounds like quite a big ask to me.

    I'd like the UK government to ask for bail out money and no austerity.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 4,458
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    Nick1966 wrote: »
    Are there Greek political parties whose stated policy aim is leave the euro and adopt a replacement currency ?

    And how well are these parties doing ?

    Out of the parties currently in parliament, only the Communist party...it got 8.5% (I think?) in the last election...Also smaller parties that didn't make the 3% mark.
  • grassmarketgrassmarket Posts: 33,010
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    jmclaugh wrote: »
    • the bail out money
    • no austerity and
    • to stay in the Euro.

    Plus all the ice cream they can eat, without putting on any weight. And the moon on a stick. And every voter gets their very own cornucopia from Herakles.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 4,458
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    jmclaugh wrote: »
    • the bail out money
    • no austerity and
    • to stay in the Euro.

    That's unfair and portrays Greeks as irresponsible children.

    Obviously not all Greeks want the same thing and around 20% do not want to stay in the Euro at all. Out of those that want to remain in the Euro, not all want the bail-out money - plenty do not want anymore loans and object to the loans having been taken already...what they want is a renegotiation of the time-frame within we are supposed to pay back the debts

    And out of those objecting to the austerity, plenty realise that some of it is necessary, so it's not that they want 'no austerity' whatsoever...they just object to the extreme extent of it and to the fact that it doesn't seem to be working anyway.

    And of course there are Greeks who are indifferent to the austerity, want to stay in the Euro and also want the bailout money...these are the Greeks that voted for PASOK/ND (and some other smaller parties) and they are around 35% of the population.
  • grassmarketgrassmarket Posts: 33,010
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    angel1ka wrote: »
    That's unfair and portrays Greeks as irresponsible children.

    Your words, not mine.
  • paulschapmanpaulschapman Posts: 35,536
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    jmclaugh wrote: »
    • the bail out money

    They will be lucky - currently Greek banks owe about 100bn euros to the central banks of other Eurozone. If Greece is not in a position, or unwilling to pay that back on exit German taxpayers (a huge chunk of Bundesbank money, equivelent to 25% of German GDP is at risk here) may find they are in hock to Greece for a chunk of money they were not aware of. At which point the political pressure on Germany's government to say enough is enough will be over whelming.

    It is almost certain that Germany will turn off the bail out money tap if Greece reneges on the austerity package.

    (see http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-18058270).

    The experiment in monetary union is an abject failure - it is about time that the Eurozone knuckled down and started negotiating for an orderly transition back to National Currencies.
  • jmclaughjmclaugh Posts: 63,988
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    angel1ka wrote: »
    That's unfair and portrays Greeks as irresponsible children.

    Obviously not all Greeks want the same thing and around 20% do not want to stay in the Euro at all. Out of those that want to remain in the Euro, not all want the bail-out money - plenty do not want anymore loans and object to the loans having been taken already...what they want is a renegotiation of the time-frame within we are supposed to pay back the debts

    And out of those objecting to the austerity, plenty realise that some of it is necessary, so it's not that they want 'no austerity' whatsoever...they just object to the extreme extent of it and to the fact that it doesn't seem to be working anyway.

    And of course there are Greeks who are indifferent to the austerity, want to stay in the Euro and also want the bailout money...these are the Greeks that voted for PASOK/ND (and some other smaller parties) and they are around 35% of the population.

    Greece will never be able to pay back its debts and austerity won't change that, it should default and leave the €.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 4,458
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    Your words, not mine.

    I'm not sure what your problem is, but I've said this to you before: anybody who views a nation of people under the prism of such prejudice is not worth debating with.

    So please don't waste my time anymore.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 4,458
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    Doc Shmok wrote: »
    We are in one currency. So since Greece is the weakest member regarding debts to safe us and you from downfall.

    I haven;t said Southern people are lazy. I would appreciate if you would stop throwing that in my face if via Angela or suppressed threats.

    I actually try to understand your countries situation. I have learned when the debts were made etc. The figures 19th Century Fox found were interesting.
    But only because you explain it doesn't mean I need to agree with you on all points.

    I also agree with you that the bankers that gave loans to irresponsible people should be taken into responsibility. Actually your best friend Angela tried that but Britain refused. All of Germany was outraged about the British position. I even had to answer of why in a Computer Game with some friends.

    Cameron et al protects the City as a big UK tax payer.

    In the upcoming left move in further elections this point will maybe dealt with on a national basis. The German Bank had to loose some blood. So did smaller investors.

    Nevertheless we live in the real world and the German Chancellor has no chance to control the markets more than you so she is trying to contain it.

    There is sadly often a discrepancy of what is correct and what is practical. She and Sarkozy got a 50% reduction.

    She is gonna loose now anyway partly as after all that back and forth you are going seemingly out of the Euro anyway. But one never knows the FDP got into NRW today after months of 2% and jokes.

    What is quite funny though is that your news papers put a wheel chair driver and a woman in Nazi uniforms. One would have been rated as breeder and the other one euthanised. :D

    I'm not sure if I'm misunderstanding the bit in bold, but if you are saying that you think I have ever implicitly threatened you, then please show me where so I can explain or retract/apologise...threats are not my style at all, and I want that to be very clear.

    I know that you and Merkel do not agree on everything and I would never try to pass on her views/practices as your own......if you think I did, I apologise. I just brought her up because you asked me 'why should the Germans pay for the debts that Greeks don't want to pay?'...and I pointed out to you that you shouldn't be asking *me* or any Greek this question, but rather posing it to your own leaders, who despite all their threatening and sometimes dismissive language, seem quite anxious to ultimately hand over the money to our corrupt, incompetent governments.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 4,458
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    jmclaugh wrote: »
    Greece will never be able to pay back its debts and austerity won't change that, it should default and leave the €.

    That is my view too.
  • Nick1966Nick1966 Posts: 15,742
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    jmclaugh wrote: »
    [Greece] should default and leave the €.

    Would it possible for Greece to default and continue using the Euro ?

    If I lend £100 to a someone and they don't repay the money, I don't ask them to leave the pound.
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