How the Welsh write Colwyn Bay
the spiz 2
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Not a thread about the place but rather how the Welsh write it, and hopefully a Welsh speaker can clear it up. I can't off the top of my head think of an example in English where spelling of a place name changes dependent on context.
On the A55 heading towards Colwyn Bay you pass several signs.
The main road sign has "Colwyn Bay / Bae Colwyn" which seems to be a fair translation.
The Welcome road sign has "Welcome to Colwyn Bay / Croeso i Fae Colwyn"
The junction sign for Old Colwyn has "Old Colwyn / Hen Golwyn"
so the Welsh have two different spellings for Bay (Bae/Fae) and two different spellings for Colwyn (Colwyn/Golwyn)
On the A55 heading towards Colwyn Bay you pass several signs.
The main road sign has "Colwyn Bay / Bae Colwyn" which seems to be a fair translation.
The Welcome road sign has "Welcome to Colwyn Bay / Croeso i Fae Colwyn"
The junction sign for Old Colwyn has "Old Colwyn / Hen Golwyn"
so the Welsh have two different spellings for Bay (Bae/Fae) and two different spellings for Colwyn (Colwyn/Golwyn)
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It sure is, and it must be a logistical nightmare for the Highways Departments of various councils who have to keep changing the roadsigns.
I have always known Cardiff in Welsh as being Caerdydd. Yet I have noticed quite recently that it is being spelled Gaerdydd.
I just wish people would make up their bloody minds and spell it one way or the other.
I didn't think it affected the mutations though did it?
It's not just Gog Welsh that has mutations.
And why is non-Gog Welsh 'proper' Welsh?
quite true but "proper welsh" also mutates initial consonants in quite a regular and grammatically valid way.
This isn't a case of spelling something one way or the other. Caerdydd and Gaerdydd are the same word. As are Cymru, Gymru and Nghymru. The initial consonant mutates depending on context and the word preceding it.
Whilst it seems like a nonsense and "silly" system to English speakers it is a feature common to all celtic languages and as such has to be reflected on signs. If it wasn't it would not be correct Welsh, regardless of how it is spelt in English.
After the preposition 'i' (which means 'to') there is a soft mutation in the follwoing consonants: p, t, c, b, d, g, ll, m, rh.
This is why Colwyn becomes Golwyn after 'i'.
Other prepositions that cause mutation are am, ar, at, dan, dros, drwy, wrth, gan, hyd.
There are also some adjectives that cause mutation. These are the (few) adjectives that precede a noun (most Welsh adjectives come after the noun)
'Hen' (meaning 'Old') is one of these, and it causes a soft mutation, hence Hen Golwyn.
It's nothing to do with that at all. It's a regional feature of the Welsh language. Just as there are different accents and dialects in English, so too there are different varieties of Welsh. This is normal in a living language.
If you want to get into the whole "proper" Welsh debate then nobody speaks it really. The every day spoken Welsh form is quite different to the "proper" standard Welsh. The differences between the formal Welsh standard, used in formal writing and the spoken language are much greater than the differences between formal Standard English and the spoken variety.
and why Bae becomes Fae in the case I had above.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colloquial_Welsh_morphology
for anyone else who is interested in why the road signs are quite correct.
Da iawn ti! Well done you!
It does make sense once you get used to it.
Yes, exactly. Here's how the soft mutations work:
P > B
T > D
C > G
B > F
D > Dd
G > _
Ll > L
M > F
Rh > R
Agreed, growing up in Cardiff I only ever knew it as Caerdydd. Doesn't mean the other didn't exist, just wasn't widely used.
I knew you'd be along shortly!
Out of interest do you mutate English words if you use them when speaking Welsh? I'm thinking of words like "bloody- floody"?
You're right and the signs do now say Creoso i Gymru. I think that in the past the signs were not always correct. And whilst some may think what does it matter, it does matter as otherwise it'd be like writing "Welcum to Wales". It's clear what is meant but it's just wrong.
Sums up the weather we had
Most Welsh towns/villages get out of it by not putting 'to'.
They'll just have Croeso / Welcome then the name of he village town.
re. the border signs. I think they do say 'Croeso i Gymru'. I know they say Croeso i Loegr (Welcome to England) on our side, which correctly mutate the Ll at the beginning of Lloegr to L.
hahaha.
That might be true in Wrexham, but in the Gwynedd area, almost all the Welsh speakers you find are properly Welsh.
Us gogs think that you tafs speak weirdly! Our Welsh is softer
Haha we had a thing at school where we'd say "PTCBDGLlRhM" as fast as we could. Funneh.
There were some American tourists sat near me and as the train pulled into the station one asked "where are we now?"
The reply from their friend was "Colwyn Bay Bae Colwyn"