It seems to me that people don't have the patience to allow the Doctor's character to develop and slowly unfold over the series. It's as if people want their nice, friendly neighbourhood doctor who is happy and zany, and they want him to be like that from the get go.
Moffat and Capaldi have been very clear - we have a trickier incarnation. He's harder to get to know and clearly his mind has been somewhat jumbled. We've going to have work harder as an audience to get to know him.
I'm happy with that. I'm already enjoying him, but I'm intrigued by how he will develop from here.
I think this season is miles ahead of last season and is much more mature and grounded.
I also think Peter Capaldi is a real tonic as the Doctor ..loving his performance.
Happy days.
This.
I must admit I wasn't particularly fussed if I missed nu-who episodes - my Saturdays are often busy and to be honest I didn't feel inclined to catch up on iPlayer - especially during the worst excesses of Matt Smith silliness.
Even if I am out on a Saturday though I use iPlayer to catch up on this season. PC is mesmerising in the role, and feels more like the show I remember form my childhood.
So what if the Doctor is grumpy? It's not the first time, is it ?
Lovely sweet episode. Gareth Roberts on top form. Yes the alien threat was sidelined. THAT WAS THE WHOLE POINT.
People whinge that Moffats era is too plot and arc heavy. Then they complain that its too relationship based. Make your minds up.
I feel tonight was a set up for the second half of the series. Some serious questions about morality which were addressed in a smart way and a beautiful performance from Capaldi. And Jenna. And Samuel.
People 'whinge' because in the RTD era the episodes seemed to be good at balancing both of these points at the same time whereas Moffat seems to struggle to do more than one or the other.
I quite liked this episode (enough to vote good) but my main niggle with it is that it does mark out my above point, that being in order for Moffat to explore the characters the 'threat' of the episode was practically non existent. Similarly when there is a bigger focus on plot we don't seem to get as much of a personality from Clara (apart from smug,bossy attitude that seems to be her default when Moffat can't be bothered writing her too much) or the other characters in the episode (though Capaldi is always good). For me Moffat just can't seem to balance both most of the time. Compare that to the RTD era and we learned everthing about Rose, Martha, Donna and there family naturally bit by bit throughout the episodes without needing an episode like tonights to try and force that stuff.
Found it boring just as I have every one before it this series.
Danny comes across as an arrogant idiot. 'I know men like him.' How many two thousand year old aliens has he met then? So he was a soldier for a few years. The Doctor caught in wars for a few millennia and this 'I know men like him' and 'he's not a soldier he's an officer' crap made him look like an idiotic prat.
A few awkward conversations and a few dates and Clara loves him? Right. Okay. That's tealistic and not a bit forced.
Yes, I was a bit caught out by that bit. He has just found out that, in fact, the Doctor is someone about whom he cannot possibly have ANY prior knowledge, and instead if being totally in awe, (I'd be standing there speechless-then following him round like a puppy!), he's all: I know men like him.
Danny touched on this also with Clara not being scared when she should have been as the Doctor has moulded her somewhat to follow his orders.
Maybe Clara helps The Doctor because she wants to, not because he expects her to. I've got a feeling Clara will walk away from The Doctor as other companions have done so before but only when he has learnt a few home truths about himself and possibly Clara helping him when he was The Doctor, the child, will be a turning point as in space and time, possibly she saw what was before, what was behind and what followed but she still walked away because The Doctor had to learn something.
Yes, I was a bit caught out by that bit. He has just found out that, in fact, the Doctor is someone about whom he cannot possibly have ANY prior knowledge, and instead if being totally in awe, (I'd be standing there speechless-then following him round like a puppy!), he's all: I know men like him.
Er, no you don't mate.
I didn't like The officer line if anything The Doctor is anything but a officer in the classic series he was given that chance and once again ran away
In both wars he was fighting on the front line and would more than likely ignore orders and do his own thing.
I do admire Moffat's 'bravery' in casting (don't know how much say he had in casting but I'm assuming he had an input and a brief) people who don't look 'ordinary'. RTD's doctors were very much the kind of bloke that you'd meet on the street whereas Moffat's are more unusual and feel a little retro.
I've only seen one Hartnell episode (the first one I think) so I can only judge simplistically. The difference with the programme then was that it was aimed at children/families, whereas now it's aimed at teenagers and above. It kind of played on the idea that 'boring' old Grandad with all his stories about the past might actually be a pretty cool dude after all. What if someone who just looked like a strange old man was actually supernatural?
Now he clearly isn't a grandad figure. They might have been able to play it that way if Clara was a child or a teenager but she's in her late twenties, so he would be the age of a father/uncle. Trying to replicate the origins of the character doesn't work because he has a different kind of appeal now. If they wanted a crotchety old man, they should have cast a lot older. Capaldi is clearly not elderly so his 'awkwardness' just comes off as being rude. Apart from some jokes about him being 'old', his age has not been satisfactorily reflected in the characterisation.
Peter Capaldi is actually older than William Hartnell was when he was cast as the Doctor in 1963.
I'm struggling a bit with Peter's Doctor and his rude, abrasive manner although Hartnell's Doctor was very rude and abrasive towards teachers Ian and Barbara in the very very first episode. Peter's Doctor is coming across as very like Colin Baker's Doctor. Colin talked about his Doctor starting off bad-tempered as a result of his regeneration then calming down as he went along. Maybe we'll see that with Peter's Doctor. Maybe events in the final story will have some effect on him.
It seems to me that people don't have the patience to allow the Doctor's character to develop and slowly unfold over the series. It's as if people want their nice, friendly neighbourhood doctor who is happy and zany, and they want him to be like that from the get go.
Moffat and Capaldi have been very clear - we have a trickier incarnation. He's harder to get to know and clearly his mind has been somewhat jumbled. We've going to have work harder as an audience to get to know him.
I'm happy with that. I'm already enjoying him, but I'm intrigued by how he will develop from here.
No, it's not that he is harder to get to know, it is that I'm afraid that there is nothing to get to know. No substance.
we've already seen what effect he has on the average person: Danny Pink 'knows' men like him from the get-go. And 'schoolgirl' goes travelling with him, without even batting an eye.
They're supposed to be 'cool', I get it, but why aren't we allowed any *awe* anymore? Any *wonder*? The incidental characters in the scenes are us, aren't they? They do what we would do in there place.
Why isn't he allowed to be better than anything you've ever encountered in your whole life, rather than .... Bob Smith from Croydon.
Even an *invisibility* watch thing is glossed over. Hello? It's a watch (was it a watch? I was too busy trying to gnaw off my own elbow by this stage), that makes you * invisible*. Can't you at least try to sell it on eBay?
Not just *use* it yourself within the first five seconds of encountering it?
I don't care if Danny turns out to be the Master or some other mass murdering type. I still perked up when he turned the tables on Twelve and his 'all soldiers are killers' attitude. Arrogant officers making the wrong decisions are frequently the real problem, rather than the men/fodder/companions they expect to obey them. It was very satisfying to watch that scene.
After all the endless whining and moping from Ten and the whole 'Day of the Doctor' story, Twelve's inability or refusal to understand that some people are put into a position where they have no choice is just (another) reason to dislike him. We don't know about Danny's past, but must presume that the Doctor doesn't either, until we're told otherwise. After all, he thought the Eleven (ish) teacher was her boyfriend at first. Lack of compassion/rudeness doesn't make him more 'alien' than his predecessors - there are a lot of humans like that as well.
He might be trying to make sure Danny was good enough for dull Clara, but Twelve himself certainly isn't (imo).
.
This is exactly the sort of reaction I was worried about. It would have been much better if the Doctor had been given just a couple of lines where he was more reasonable and explained his reasons, given a little speech about pacifism perhaps. Maybe we could have seen his side of things, or at least seen that he had a well-reasoned opinion. They could have portrayed him as an alien who is very wise but too detached from human feelings and manners. As it was, the Doctor's attitude did just come across as snobbish hatred, and Danny was presented as the only one who had a valid opinion, and that's a shame. I have no problem with the Doctor being a bit of an obnoxious anti-hero, but it's the less interesting appraoch to take in this case imo, and it's not going to appeal to some people.
I honestly don;t understand why people are having such difficulty with the Doctor's rudeness though. It's hilarious, especially in episodes like this. Haven't these people ever seen House? That's what this episode was, essentially: Gregory House with a TARDIS. So much fun.
The bit at the beginning when they are chained up and about to starve to death. What episode was that from? Is that a future one (in this series I mean) or was it just a reference to them getting in dangerous scrapes?
I'm glad that people here are explaining this, because it did not come across to me at all all I could see was that the Doc is trying to 'get' Clara and is jealous of Danny.
All the comments about him and the snide remarks did not appear to be those of someone who is concerned, but it's what you do when you talk about your ex's new partner - mispronouncing their name or putting them down. bad writing for me, bad characterisation ( I don't want any more characteri-bloody-sation).
A drama like this can, surely (?), only work over the long term. this is eastenders on speed:
I've met this guy.
But I love him Dad.
Don't go wiv 'im babe, 'e's no good for you.
( alien bows his head off)
but I loved 'im Dad.
(sob)
Cue too overtly dramatic music
I honestly don;t understand why people are having such difficulty with the Doctor's rudeness though. It's hilarious, especially in episodes like this. Haven't these people ever seen House? That's what this episode was, essentially: Gregory House with a TARDIS. So much fun.
No it wasn't:
House has the upper hand/gets the upper hand, by the end.
This was more: Sorryyou got caught short, grandad.
Aw, diddums, let's pat grandad on the hand for trying,
He is not coming across as rude, but sarcastic, which seems to be the last vestige of the desperate.
Why would he keep making so many silly comments about Clara?
From what we, the viewers, have seen: a few dates, awkward conversations, a bit of arguing and Clara's in bloody love with him.
Not buying it at all, feels totally unrealistic and unnatural. I appreciate the attempt to bring some humanity back to Doctor Who, but it's doing nothing for me; it feels forced and I can't invest in it at all.
Exactly. Just like Asylum of the Daleks where out of nowhere Amy and Rory were on the brink of getting a divorce.
The bit at the beginning when they are chained up and about to starve to death. What episode was that from? Is that a future one (in this series I mean) or was it just a reference to them getting in dangerous scrapes?
The latter, it was a bit like DT with a crossbow with Martha at the end of blink, they just go on advetures, we don't see them all
Grumpy old timer with a twinkle in his eye and who is much nicer than you think. !!
It's not rocket science people....Well yes it is ! But you know what I mean.
No, it's not Rocket Science, Rory. It's Astrophysics!
Love the Hartnell era and there are parallels to be drawn. So if Danny's in next week's episode, we've got a grey haired Doctor, two Coal Hill teachers and a 'difficult' teenager. Any other kind? I was.
Found it boring just as I have every one before it this series.
Danny comes across as an arrogant idiot. 'I know men like him.' How many two thousand year old aliens has he met then? So he was a soldier for a few years. The Doctor caught in wars for a few millennia and this 'I know men like him' and 'he's not a soldier he's an officer' crap made him look like an idiotic prat.
No, Danny nailed it exactly, the Dr has always 'commanded' people such that they will die for the greater good...people always died when they cam into contact with the Dr.
It is not the Time War that made him like he is...he is trying to forget what he had to do in the Time War which is why he has a downer on soldiers. Danny can see the Dr for what he is...the Dr puts himself in danger to a certain extent but also gets his companions to put themselves in the firing line just as Clara did in this episode as they do in lots of episodes.
His care for Clara is questionable at times (depends what suits the episode). He seems to save people just...because? Dunno, he doesn't seem to care about them. Doesn't seem to enjoy much of anything tbh. I just find the character lacking.
I think this Doctor is no where near as well written or interesting as the previous 3 were tbh.
I completely blame the writing. This series is lacklustre because of it. Peter is doing fine but he can't do miracles - tbh I'd rather him have stayed on Musketeers where they at least seemed to be going somewhere with the character!
In Deep Breath he had the speech about people never being small to him, dont underestimate how far he will go to protect
them because he has come a very long way and he doesnt expect to reach the promised land.
His brusque offhand manner is possibly the result of him having his eye on a far bigger picture than Clara, maybe the puzzle he has trying to solve via all the maths etc he has been scribbling down. Maybe the thing he is trying to puzzle out is something that is very good at hiding from him (making Listen a stand alone story AND something part of a larger sequence of cause and effect.
The doctor has more than once left the scene of a story to go back in time and then pop back up again with the knowledge or preparation necessary to save the day.
In real life sometimes people are sarky and distant when they have something on their mind. The Doctor seems to be saying things that are inappropriate. Maybe they are being said from apoint of view of him doing and knowing stuff we havent been let in on yet. Deep Breath and Time Heist both had different kinds of Timey Wimey which could foreshadow the bigger game we cant see yet.
Dont underestimate how far he will go to protect people because he has come a very long way already. Maybe we will find out how far. Whether his friendshipmwith.Clara wont survive the big reveal ofbhim being rude to her to protect her from.something, rude enough to make her not end up.dying for him like so many have (hence him raging at her to get back in the tardis where it is safe).
Oops. Bit of a ramble. In short, not totally sure of what to make of the new era but this jury of one will wait for all the evidence.before passing judgement.
Comments
Moffat and Capaldi have been very clear - we have a trickier incarnation. He's harder to get to know and clearly his mind has been somewhat jumbled. We've going to have work harder as an audience to get to know him.
I'm happy with that. I'm already enjoying him, but I'm intrigued by how he will develop from here.
This.
I must admit I wasn't particularly fussed if I missed nu-who episodes - my Saturdays are often busy and to be honest I didn't feel inclined to catch up on iPlayer - especially during the worst excesses of Matt Smith silliness.
Even if I am out on a Saturday though I use iPlayer to catch up on this season. PC is mesmerising in the role, and feels more like the show I remember form my childhood.
So what if the Doctor is grumpy? It's not the first time, is it ?
People 'whinge' because in the RTD era the episodes seemed to be good at balancing both of these points at the same time whereas Moffat seems to struggle to do more than one or the other.
I quite liked this episode (enough to vote good) but my main niggle with it is that it does mark out my above point, that being in order for Moffat to explore the characters the 'threat' of the episode was practically non existent. Similarly when there is a bigger focus on plot we don't seem to get as much of a personality from Clara (apart from smug,bossy attitude that seems to be her default when Moffat can't be bothered writing her too much) or the other characters in the episode (though Capaldi is always good). For me Moffat just can't seem to balance both most of the time. Compare that to the RTD era and we learned everthing about Rose, Martha, Donna and there family naturally bit by bit throughout the episodes without needing an episode like tonights to try and force that stuff.
Yes, I was a bit caught out by that bit. He has just found out that, in fact, the Doctor is someone about whom he cannot possibly have ANY prior knowledge, and instead if being totally in awe, (I'd be standing there speechless-then following him round like a puppy!), he's all: I know men like him.
Er, no you don't mate.
I didn't like The officer line if anything The Doctor is anything but a officer in the classic series he was given that chance and once again ran away
In both wars he was fighting on the front line and would more than likely ignore orders and do his own thing.
Peter Capaldi is actually older than William Hartnell was when he was cast as the Doctor in 1963.
I'm struggling a bit with Peter's Doctor and his rude, abrasive manner although Hartnell's Doctor was very rude and abrasive towards teachers Ian and Barbara in the very very first episode. Peter's Doctor is coming across as very like Colin Baker's Doctor. Colin talked about his Doctor starting off bad-tempered as a result of his regeneration then calming down as he went along. Maybe we'll see that with Peter's Doctor. Maybe events in the final story will have some effect on him.
No, it's not that he is harder to get to know, it is that I'm afraid that there is nothing to get to know. No substance.
we've already seen what effect he has on the average person: Danny Pink 'knows' men like him from the get-go. And 'schoolgirl' goes travelling with him, without even batting an eye.
They're supposed to be 'cool', I get it, but why aren't we allowed any *awe* anymore? Any *wonder*? The incidental characters in the scenes are us, aren't they? They do what we would do in there place.
Why isn't he allowed to be better than anything you've ever encountered in your whole life, rather than .... Bob Smith from Croydon.
Even an *invisibility* watch thing is glossed over. Hello? It's a watch (was it a watch? I was too busy trying to gnaw off my own elbow by this stage), that makes you * invisible*. Can't you at least try to sell it on eBay?
Not just *use* it yourself within the first five seconds of encountering it?
This is exactly the sort of reaction I was worried about. It would have been much better if the Doctor had been given just a couple of lines where he was more reasonable and explained his reasons, given a little speech about pacifism perhaps. Maybe we could have seen his side of things, or at least seen that he had a well-reasoned opinion. They could have portrayed him as an alien who is very wise but too detached from human feelings and manners. As it was, the Doctor's attitude did just come across as snobbish hatred, and Danny was presented as the only one who had a valid opinion, and that's a shame. I have no problem with the Doctor being a bit of an obnoxious anti-hero, but it's the less interesting appraoch to take in this case imo, and it's not going to appeal to some people.
If he's got charisma to spare maybe it would be helpful if he showed some.
It's not rocket science people....Well yes it is ! But you know what I mean.
But I'll tell you who else will,..kids. LIke Courtney, they can see through the bluster to the nice guy underneath.
This is still our Doctor....shame so many seem to need it spelling out.
Lol! Great post!
No it wasn't:
House has the upper hand/gets the upper hand, by the end.
This was more: Sorryyou got caught short, grandad.
Aw, diddums, let's pat grandad on the hand for trying,
He is not coming across as rude, but sarcastic, which seems to be the last vestige of the desperate.
Why would he keep making so many silly comments about Clara?
Exactly. Just like Asylum of the Daleks where out of nowhere Amy and Rory were on the brink of getting a divorce.
Haha!
Very true
The latter, it was a bit like DT with a crossbow with Martha at the end of blink, they just go on advetures, we don't see them all
No, it's not Rocket Science, Rory. It's Astrophysics!
Love the Hartnell era and there are parallels to be drawn. So if Danny's in next week's episode, we've got a grey haired Doctor, two Coal Hill teachers and a 'difficult' teenager. Any other kind? I was.
He's teasing her, like people do with their kids.
Well if you think about it he has not being around humans for 1000 years the people of Trenzalore may have looked human but they still were not human
Ok I'm kind of joking with that but it could still be a bit of a explanation
No, Danny nailed it exactly, the Dr has always 'commanded' people such that they will die for the greater good...people always died when they cam into contact with the Dr.
It is not the Time War that made him like he is...he is trying to forget what he had to do in the Time War which is why he has a downer on soldiers. Danny can see the Dr for what he is...the Dr puts himself in danger to a certain extent but also gets his companions to put themselves in the firing line just as Clara did in this episode as they do in lots of episodes.
In Deep Breath he had the speech about people never being small to him, dont underestimate how far he will go to protect
them because he has come a very long way and he doesnt expect to reach the promised land.
His brusque offhand manner is possibly the result of him having his eye on a far bigger picture than Clara, maybe the puzzle he has trying to solve via all the maths etc he has been scribbling down. Maybe the thing he is trying to puzzle out is something that is very good at hiding from him (making Listen a stand alone story AND something part of a larger sequence of cause and effect.
The doctor has more than once left the scene of a story to go back in time and then pop back up again with the knowledge or preparation necessary to save the day.
In real life sometimes people are sarky and distant when they have something on their mind. The Doctor seems to be saying things that are inappropriate. Maybe they are being said from apoint of view of him doing and knowing stuff we havent been let in on yet. Deep Breath and Time Heist both had different kinds of Timey Wimey which could foreshadow the bigger game we cant see yet.
Dont underestimate how far he will go to protect people because he has come a very long way already. Maybe we will find out how far. Whether his friendshipmwith.Clara wont survive the big reveal ofbhim being rude to her to protect her from.something, rude enough to make her not end up.dying for him like so many have (hence him raging at her to get back in the tardis where it is safe).
Oops. Bit of a ramble. In short, not totally sure of what to make of the new era but this jury of one will wait for all the evidence.before passing judgement.