Scottish independence: let's have an honest debate
Ovalteenie
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The campaign starts here. Let's discuss & debunk the reasons for or against.
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Ovalteenie
Posts: 24,169 Ovalteenie
Posts: 24,169
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If Scotland is doing so great within the UK...
- why does Scotland have some of the most deprived constituencies in the UK (eg East Glasgow)?
- why is there a brain drain from Scotland with many young Scots leaving for England or abroad for better job opportunities?
There's no evidence that Scotland is doing better within the UK since the post-war decades. Things can only get better with independence?
time to realise that being UNDER another country is not the way to go .....
Not sure Scotland is under England in any shape or form, and was it not a Union not a Conquest? They may be weighed under by that enormous chip that some carry :eek:
However lets bring on the referendum and see what the Scottish people think.
They may say yes they may say no. I think that what may hold them back is a "Better the Devil you know" worry and that Scottish politicians are a bigger bunch of treacherous weasels that the Westminster ones - hard to believe I know..
You've gone from A to Z and, in addition to not answering the questions that you asked, you've missed a whole bunch of others in between. I'll take deprivation as an example...
Deprivation
TBH I'm only scratching the surface - there are many, more questions in this area.
The result of years of Labour administrations in Glasgow. They created the council estates which produced ghettoes of poverty, lack of aspiration, and people living off welfare. Wasted lives...
Because being part of the UK means free movement. I suggest you ask the Scottish Government why their policies are not keeping people in Scotland. According to you things must be better in the rest of the UK where the Coalition are in charge.
Why???
Labour have been in power in Glasgow since the 1920's. We had slums for a long time and some of the worst living conditions to be found in Europe. At the same time we also had lots of people in work in industry. When council schemes were built unemployment was not an issue and poverty was less of an issue at this time. Unemployment rose, poverty increased and the numbers of unemployed and folk living off welfare soared not with Labour councils in Glasgow but with the rise of Thacther in the 80's. People on those schemes all worked when there was work to go to! I'll not stick up for Labour normally because they no longer do anything to further the cause of the working man but lay the blame where it's due and that is with Thatcher.
Because we don't have the powers of a normal state with our own functioning capital city, a centre for the nation or with our own broadcasting stations, because we don't have control of our finances to focus on creating business and opportunity here it means there is less opportunity than there will be once independence brings Scotland back into line with normal countries. I compare the job opportunities I have in Glasgow or Edinburgh compared with my mate who lives in Oslo, which is actually smaller, and there is no competition. We could be doing with some of that in Scotland.
Because that is the norm for states that have been ruled by other powers. Secondly we can look how much things have improved since devolution. We can look at what is happening down in England and look it how Holyrood has managed things better. We can also see that when things are done in a wrong, like welfare cuts for example, it's coming from Westminster.
What did Thatcher do?
I didn't realise that Edinburgh was no longer considered a "capital city". Must have changed since I lived in Scotland.
You have your own broadcasting stations, quite a few in fact. Turn on the radio and explore.
What control of your finances are you thinking of? You will be adopting a foreign currency, which means less control.
What job opportunities would come with separation???
Scotland hasn't been ruled by another power. It plays its part, equitably, in the United Kingdom and has a say in decisions made in the other countries of the Union.
What has improved?
She left a generation of men to rot without jobs by destroying industry.
London is the capital city of the UK and acts as one.
We have no control over them and when work opportunities arise in Scotland often teams are shipped up from London instead of using local workers which would increase employment in the industry here.
The economic powers to run our economy properly, chiefly the powers to reverse this austerity insanity being imposed by Westminster ideologues that is damaging the economy across the whole of the UK but markedly in Scotland.
Civli service. Renewables. Increased investment from business, as already seems to be happening in some parts of Scotland, increased jobs in broadcasting and the media to name but a few.
It has. We are being ruled by a government just now we have very little influence over what so ever. If the Tories ever get a majority in parliament we will have no representation in government and will be once again at their mercy.
I'd say everything. Self-esteem. The society is more fair and while the UK has drifted further to the right which can only be a bad thing the Scottish Parliament has allowed Scotland to work towards a fairer society where students aren't exploited and the priced out forced out of university education. People won't die here to avoid paying prescription charges etc. Admittedly this will all be things that you hate but for Scottish people as a whole it has been better and most importantly it has become fairer.
Why would she destroy industry? What industries did she destroy?
Well that's true. It's one of the most powerful cities in the world. However we were discussing Edinburgh...;)
Perhaps the skill sets are not available in Scotland. As far as I know, Scottish education is directed from Holyrood, not London. So another failure of devolution...
Interesting! How would a separate Scotland deal with its share of national debt and the deficit without austerity? Magic wand or north sea oil?
How will all this be paid for?
Maybe you will just have to vote Tory and not isolate yourselves in this way
Nobody is being forced out of university education in England. Nobody pays up front and nobody pays anything until they are on £21k. At some point in the future fees will be introduced in Scotland. Higher education has to be properly funded.
Nobody dies here because of prescription charges. I'd rather invest in medication I need than buying alcohol or cigarettes. There are so many exemptions anyway.
These are not examples of fairness.
She had previous with the miners unions and wanted them gone for a start. Apart from that she wanted to change the economy of the UK. Change from unionised industries into low paid service sector jobs and finance sector job, which in the case of the former, many of the workers of industry were not qualified to work in.
And when Edinburgh is the capital of an independent Scotland I hope Edinburgh will become more powerful in it self and naturally when we have the powers to attract more businesses edinburgh will benefit. I would like Edinburgh to become a normal capital like Oslo, Copenhagen or Amsterdam etc. What's more I have the belief in Scotland that it is more than capable of having a strong capital.
Not the case. But entirely typical for you to once again put Scotland down. The broadcasting unions are doing their best to try and encourage the BBC to use local workers.
We already manage to pay a share and balance our budgets. We don't need a magic wand just a to be fiscally responsible, which of course compared to the rest of the UK, we already are.
From revenue raised of course. How the hell else would it be paid? Scotland is in a financially strong position, particularly after independence when we will be allowed to use the revenue raised here.
No I'll just vote Yes to get away from the disaster that is brewing in Westminster as we speak.
England is the exception in charging students. Most European nations are successful enough not to need to stoop to these levels. I don't want to see Scotland dragged to those levels by the UK.
No means testing has always meant people who need things do not apply to get them. There was a report from England on the damage of prescription charges which I am still looking for. If I find it I'll post it.
I don't believe you value fairness in any sense other than to protect the wealth of those who have more than enough.
How that'll pan out will be interesting considering they've wanted nowt to do with either for years but seem to be looking at a monumental u-turn.
Regardless of whether Scotland joins NATO nuclear missiles will be expelled from an independent Scotland this will have a big knock on effect for whether there will even be a Trident replacement and regardless there is no question Scotland will play a part in making that possible.
"Vote the way we want you to or else your family will be struck down by the plague!"
So it's a big no to nukes but a possible yes please to sheltering under the umbrella of protection they provide if they join NATO.......hmm
Doesn't that sail into hypocritical waters?
If no-one replies to posts, any thread will fall quickly off the front page of any forum.
It is getting difficult to keep up with I'll admit. Trouble is there are so many sub-topics and debates thrown into the ring it would be almost impossible to merge them under one heading.
So you can't come up with evidence to support your first claim, which I'm sure you realised couldn't be substantiated. New union legislation brought in by the Thatcher Government didn't destroy one job. Many outdated and uncompetitive industries did decline, but they would have been on the way out even if Labour had been in power. Yes the service sector increased and replaced many of the old jobs. Economies naturally change with the times, whether we like it or not, and it is unfortunately not always easy.
If Scotland separated, Edinburgh would be well prepared in terms of being a strong capital - but it won't happen.
I would never put Scotland down. However we should not pretend that everything in the garden is rosy. I'm sure broadcasting unions are fulfilling the wishes of their members, but the BBC has a much wider responsibility to the licence payer.
The Government in Scotland sets its priorities. They may or may not be the best ones. Priorities change whether Scotland is part of the UK or not.
Raising taxes, as will be inevitable, will take money out of folks pockets. In the present climate that will severely stifle industry and enterprise.
What disaster is that? Things are not too bad at the moment. Unemployment is falling, employment is at its highest level ever, inflation is falling, crime is falling...
So you agree with the principle that some people get and benefit from a free university education which is paid for through the taxes of many people that don't get that same opportunity. Thought the new Scotland was based on fairness
I'm perfectly happy to pay for prescriptions. I need quite a lot so I pay for a yearly card and it is money well spent. Under sixteens, the unemployed and the over 65s don't pay. Seems fair.
Why would I wish to protect the wealth of those who have more than enough?
The threads will disappear on this subject in 2014 and be replaced on what Alex Salmond will be doing in his retirement after his proposal for independence will have been rejected.
Not from what I saw last night.
The SNP will have kept the party's word to the people of Scotland. They will have kept their long held manifesto pledges to deliver a referendum on independence.
What distinquishes the SNP from any of the the other parties if you take independence off the table?
However the present SNP is a very broad church held together by its members' overarching desire for full independence. Some will probably break away, perhaps to join and strengthen the LDs who are now in favour of Home Rule. Others may wish to push for full devo max and form a new partyperhaps linking up with others to eventually form a national party in favour of more local governance/federalism.