I worked for one of the nationalised industries, and I feel sure that had it not been privatised the level of investment would have been much lower than it is now
As a sort of poll on opinions, does anyone think that the utilities i.e Gas, Electricity, Water, Telephones, are better now they are privatised, or were they better nationalised?
Telephones - much better. Much more choice in suppliers and packages, and lots of deals like Friends and Family, weekend and evening free calls etc. which the old British Telecom would have had no incentive to introduce.
Electricity - better. I think having a choice of suppliers has at least cushioned the price rises a little, and introduced some good ideas like giving out free energy monitors to households.
Gas - slightly better. Again, I think the competition has cushioned price rises, but the wholesale cost of gas has gone up ridiculously, so much more difficult to call.
Water - worse. Costs, number of leaks, and repeated letters through the door telling you that they won't fix burst pipes on your premises. Pointless to privatise a utility where there's no competition. To my knowledge, I'm stuck with Yorkshire Water whether I like it or not.
Telephones - much better. Much more choice in suppliers and packages, and lots of deals like Friends and Family, weekend and evening free calls etc. which the old British Telecom would have had no incentive to introduce.
Electricity - better. I think having a choice of suppliers has at least cushioned the price rises a little, and introduced some good ideas like giving out free energy monitors to households.
Gas - slightly better. Again, I think the competition has cushioned price rises, but the wholesale cost of gas has gone up ridiculously, so much more difficult to call.
Water - worse. Costs, number of leaks, and repeated letters through the door telling you that they won't fix burst pipes on your premises. Pointless to privatise a utility where there's no competition. To my knowledge, I'm stuck with Yorkshire Water whether I like it or not.
Telephones and other communications services - vastly improved.
Gas and electricity far better choice and much cheaper in relative terms. How I loathed being tied to British Gas.
Water far better - I am saving a fortune since I got metered - tens of pounds per year instead of hundreds.
The only reason the water companies have been upgrading their networks is because they are legally required to do, not because private companies would do it by themselves.
So what reason have the Nationalsied companies got for not upgrading their networks?
As a sort of poll on opinions, does anyone think that the utilities i.e Gas, Electricity, Water, Telephones, are better now they are privatised, or were they better nationalised?
All of them are an improvement over their nationalized counterparts except water in which I haven't noticed any real difference as there is no competition.
All of them are an improvement over their nationalized counterparts except water in which I haven't noticed any real difference as there is no competition.
I may be totally wrong on this, but as regards water companies, looking at the link, if I lived in a United Utilities area, could I not opt to pay say Yorkshire Water for a supply?
I may be totally wrong on this, but as regards water companies, looking at the link, if I lived in a United Utilities area, could I not opt to pay say Yorkshire Water for a supply?
Afaik you are stuck with the water utility that covers your area. I have never had ano water company offer to supply my water unlike gas, electricity and telephone suppliers who frequently ring me or send me stuff in the post urging me to switch to them.
We keep hearing from various posters that the privatisation of utilities was a mistake - will this weeks experience in NI make them reconsider? (
Well done for opening this discussion, it's a very good topic to be debating on here after the awful experiences of people in Northern Ireland regarding their water supply.
Yes, the water company United Utilities that supply water to Northern Ireland is indeed state owned.
I think any company or organisation, whether it be in the public or private sector has to be run correctly and effectively; it has to provide a high standard of service to its customers and not let them down. What is clear is that United Utilities have badly let down the people of Northern Ireland. Their response has been very very poor.
But with water, you can't choose or change your water supplier. Therefore, it's effectively a monopoly unlike gas or electricity suppliers where you can shop around to get the supplier you want.
I think that there are good arguments for and against privatization of water so I can actually see both sides of the argument.
The main problem of privatization of water is that as a monopoly, the utility company can raise prices by a large margin (even if there is some sort of regulatory control), price of water increased by 46% in the first 9 years of privatization. What's the motivation to really invest in the infrastracture some might argue.
Advantage of privatization is that more research and development can perhaps be done, more long term planning.
Having said that, according to what's on Wikipedia (this is very interesting actually)
'A World Bank paper that reviewed empirical studies on the impact of private ownership on the efficiency of service provision by utilities concluded that: "...ownership often does not matter as much as sometimes argued. Most cross-country papers on utilities find no statistically significant difference in efficiency scores between public and private providers'
The above statement sums up where I stand and is similar to the points I've made in this post, particularly in the 3rd paragraph.
I can see the benefits of the privatisation but, in my heart, I would prefer them nationalised. The problem is that nationalised "companies" in this country couldn't run a bath - let alone a huge company. So I feel they are (slightly) better off where they are at the moment
At least when its state run its being run for the benefit of the country , isnt in foreign hands, is accountable to the public & isnt doling out massive salaries to its top brass at the expense of the customers.
I couldn't care less who runs the utilities or what they pay to their staff as long as they provide a good service at a reasonable price and water comes out of the tap when you want it. Isn't that what matters?
The situation in NI sounds terrible. We hard a burst water main a few months ago and were without water for a whole 6 hours. Even in that short time it is amazing how lack of water affects your lifestyle. Water pipes bursting is a fact of life but I thought that a 6 hour repair was a decent service (if annoying). Going a whole week, especially at this time of year, is almost beyond imagination.
As a sort of poll on opinions, does anyone think that the utilities i.e Gas, Electricity, Water, Telephones, are better now they are privatised, or were they better nationalised?
I cannot speak for Gas we haven't got it but as electricity is concerned in the last few years there has been hundreds of miles of overhead wiring and infrastructure renewed resulting in our supply being far more stable in bad weather. Power cuts are a thing of the past where 6-8 outages in a winter was quite common. Trees are regularly trimmed now instead of waiting till they shorted out the overhead supply.
There have been miles of old metal water pipe also renewed and many new mains created and whereas in the past when a water main burst we lost supply now because we are on a ring system instead of a linear one the burst can be quickly isolated without loss of supply.
40 years ago we could only be connected to the phone on a party line. When I have had a problem with my line and it is rare the phone company have sorted it very quickly. Many overhead lines have also been renewed.
I would say things are far better now that they were.
I cannot speak for Gas we haven't got it but as electricity is concerned in the last few years there has been hundreds of miles of overhead wiring and infrastructure renewed resulting in our supply being far more stable in bad weather. Power cuts are a thing of the past where 6-8 outages in a winter was quite common. Trees are regularly trimmed now instead of waiting till they shorted out the overhead supply.
There have been miles of old metal water pipe also renewed and many new mains created and whereas in the past when a water main burst we lost supply now because we are on a ring system instead of a linear one the burst can be quickly isolated without loss of supply.
40 years ago we could only be connected to the phone on a party line. When I have had a problem with my line and it is rare the phone company have sorted it very quickly. Many overhead lines have also been renewed.
I would say things are far better now that they were.
Ah the old party lines and you had to wait months to even get one of those.:D
Ah the old party lines and you had to wait months to even get one of those.:D
Scuse me, it depended on where you lived on how long it took to have a phone fitted, in the 1960's the then Post Office Telephone Service commenced an upgrade of telephone exchanges to the then new STD system, and as each exchange was updated equipment became available to connect telephones to that exchange, up to that time there was a shortage of equipment, because on most exchanges you picked up the phone and a voice said "Number Please"
Ah the old party lines and you had to wait months to even get one of those.:D
Party lines — had me thinking. You could either get a Labour one or a Tory one, the Labour ones never worked efficiently many never even worked from day one and were useless:D.
Oops, I must have been on alt-Earth where John Smith survived his assassination attempt but turned out to be as Evil as Tony Blair.
Then again I might have meant Adam Smith
As to the premise of the OP, it might just work if he shows that the Scottish water system - publicly owned - had also collapsed so badly.
As I was able to shower & have a cup of tea today, I suspect it didn't - especially as the Socialised Publicly Owned Scottish Water is sending water to NI - which is more than the private sector is able to do.
Therefore it must be true that Public Water is superior to Private Water? Or does this prove that Scottish Water is wasteful for having that much excess capacity
Or is it more likely that NI water has been run, like most water companies by a bunch of fools who won't spend a penny (heh heh) on maintenance unless the government uses a figurative cattle prod on their collective genitalia
Northern Ireland Water is not a privatised utility company so the whole thread is based on a false assertion.
The point of the thread is that the publicly owned NI Water is not necessarily any better than the private water companies in England and Wales.
We keep hearing about how some private water companies hike rates and don't invest, and how we see that the publicly owned NI Water may not be much different.
The point of the thread is that the publicly owned NI Water is not necessarily any better than the private water companies in England and Wales.
We keep hearing about how some private water companies hike rates and don't invest, and how we see that the publicly owned NI Water may not be much different.
Correct. From what has been said NI water has invested less than privatised companies here. Anglian Water, my area, have been renewing miles of water pipe from metal to plastic, less prone to bursts.
Comments
Telephones - much better. Much more choice in suppliers and packages, and lots of deals like Friends and Family, weekend and evening free calls etc. which the old British Telecom would have had no incentive to introduce.
Electricity - better. I think having a choice of suppliers has at least cushioned the price rises a little, and introduced some good ideas like giving out free energy monitors to households.
Gas - slightly better. Again, I think the competition has cushioned price rises, but the wholesale cost of gas has gone up ridiculously, so much more difficult to call.
Water - worse. Costs, number of leaks, and repeated letters through the door telling you that they won't fix burst pipes on your premises. Pointless to privatise a utility where there's no competition. To my knowledge, I'm stuck with Yorkshire Water whether I like it or not.
Telephones and other communications services - vastly improved.
Gas and electricity far better choice and much cheaper in relative terms. How I loathed being tied to British Gas.
Water far better - I am saving a fortune since I got metered - tens of pounds per year instead of hundreds.
So what reason have the Nationalsied companies got for not upgrading their networks?
Or is that OK as there are no shareholders?
John Smith Institute? - are you sure?
All of them are an improvement over their nationalized counterparts except water in which I haven't noticed any real difference as there is no competition.
I may be totally wrong on this, but as regards water companies, looking at the link, if I lived in a United Utilities area, could I not opt to pay say Yorkshire Water for a supply?
http://www.ccwater.org.uk/server.php?show=nav.344
Nobody is saying that utilities should not be regulated, not even the Conservatives.
I don't think you even believe half the stuff you write
Afaik you are stuck with the water utility that covers your area. I have never had ano water company offer to supply my water unlike gas, electricity and telephone suppliers who frequently ring me or send me stuff in the post urging me to switch to them.
The Smith Institute is so named after John Smith the late Labour leader.
Surely John Smith did not recommend having no regulation of the water supply? He seemed to be such a sensible man.
I'm guessing you mean the Adam Smith Institute, the group dedicated to promoting free market policies. John Smith had somewhat different politics...
Well done for opening this discussion, it's a very good topic to be debating on here after the awful experiences of people in Northern Ireland regarding their water supply.
Yes, the water company United Utilities that supply water to Northern Ireland is indeed state owned.
I think any company or organisation, whether it be in the public or private sector has to be run correctly and effectively; it has to provide a high standard of service to its customers and not let them down. What is clear is that United Utilities have badly let down the people of Northern Ireland. Their response has been very very poor.
But with water, you can't choose or change your water supplier. Therefore, it's effectively a monopoly unlike gas or electricity suppliers where you can shop around to get the supplier you want.
I think that there are good arguments for and against privatization of water so I can actually see both sides of the argument.
The main problem of privatization of water is that as a monopoly, the utility company can raise prices by a large margin (even if there is some sort of regulatory control), price of water increased by 46% in the first 9 years of privatization. What's the motivation to really invest in the infrastracture some might argue.
Advantage of privatization is that more research and development can perhaps be done, more long term planning.
Having said that, according to what's on Wikipedia (this is very interesting actually)
'A World Bank paper that reviewed empirical studies on the impact of private ownership on the efficiency of service provision by utilities concluded that: "...ownership often does not matter as much as sometimes argued. Most cross-country papers on utilities find no statistically significant difference in efficiency scores between public and private providers'
The above statement sums up where I stand and is similar to the points I've made in this post, particularly in the 3rd paragraph.
I can see the benefits of the privatisation but, in my heart, I would prefer them nationalised. The problem is that nationalised "companies" in this country couldn't run a bath - let alone a huge company. So I feel they are (slightly) better off where they are at the moment
Not all utility companies are. My water company is owned by a publicly traded British company.
Why do you assume that? They may need to pay "market rate" to get and retain the appropriate talent.
I couldn't care less who runs the utilities or what they pay to their staff as long as they provide a good service at a reasonable price and water comes out of the tap when you want it. Isn't that what matters?
The situation in NI sounds terrible. We hard a burst water main a few months ago and were without water for a whole 6 hours. Even in that short time it is amazing how lack of water affects your lifestyle. Water pipes bursting is a fact of life but I thought that a 6 hour repair was a decent service (if annoying). Going a whole week, especially at this time of year, is almost beyond imagination.
I cannot speak for Gas we haven't got it but as electricity is concerned in the last few years there has been hundreds of miles of overhead wiring and infrastructure renewed resulting in our supply being far more stable in bad weather. Power cuts are a thing of the past where 6-8 outages in a winter was quite common. Trees are regularly trimmed now instead of waiting till they shorted out the overhead supply.
There have been miles of old metal water pipe also renewed and many new mains created and whereas in the past when a water main burst we lost supply now because we are on a ring system instead of a linear one the burst can be quickly isolated without loss of supply.
40 years ago we could only be connected to the phone on a party line. When I have had a problem with my line and it is rare the phone company have sorted it very quickly. Many overhead lines have also been renewed.
I would say things are far better now that they were.
Ah the old party lines and you had to wait months to even get one of those.:D
Scuse me, it depended on where you lived on how long it took to have a phone fitted, in the 1960's the then Post Office Telephone Service commenced an upgrade of telephone exchanges to the then new STD system, and as each exchange was updated equipment became available to connect telephones to that exchange, up to that time there was a shortage of equipment, because on most exchanges you picked up the phone and a voice said "Number Please"
Party lines — had me thinking. You could either get a Labour one or a Tory one, the Labour ones never worked efficiently many never even worked from day one and were useless:D.
Then again I might have meant Adam Smith
As to the premise of the OP, it might just work if he shows that the Scottish water system - publicly owned - had also collapsed so badly.
As I was able to shower & have a cup of tea today, I suspect it didn't - especially as the Socialised Publicly Owned Scottish Water is sending water to NI - which is more than the private sector is able to do.
Therefore it must be true that Public Water is superior to Private Water? Or does this prove that Scottish Water is wasteful for having that much excess capacity
Or is it more likely that NI water has been run, like most water companies by a bunch of fools who won't spend a penny (heh heh) on maintenance unless the government uses a figurative cattle prod on their collective genitalia
Northern Ireland Water and Scottish Water are the only United Kingdom water companies not to have been privatised.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Ireland_Water
The point of the thread is that the publicly owned NI Water is not necessarily any better than the private water companies in England and Wales.
We keep hearing about how some private water companies hike rates and don't invest, and how we see that the publicly owned NI Water may not be much different.
Correct. From what has been said NI water has invested less than privatised companies here. Anglian Water, my area, have been renewing miles of water pipe from metal to plastic, less prone to bursts.