It has been established in the show that the Doctor actively took part in the Time War. As he put it, he 'fought on the front lines'. We can also safely assume that he had his Tardis with him. That clearly shows that the Doctor existed at a point in time that is now considered to be contained within the time lock.
Also as the Doctor and Tardis are now continuing to have adventures after the end of the time war, they both obviously exist outside the time lock.
This is exactly the same situation that affected the Master, and allowed the Time Lords within the time lock to utilize the future version of the Master that existed outside the time lock as a means of escape.
It's not about the "point in time". It's not like everybody who existed at that time was removed from the Universe. Only the Time Lords and the Daleks were affected (and, the Time Lords were removed from every point of time - past and future - by that action).
Clearly the Doctor had to be protected from the effect otherwise he would not have existed in the Universe any more than the other Time Lords. So the Doctor and the TARDIS could not have been trapped by the Time Lock.
I dont actually know that much about as not seen any episodes set on Gallifrey but apparently the Time Lords had a virtual reality called the matrix where all their knowledge survived. I imagine a single machine surviving the war in which the minds of the time lords continue to exist in a virtual reality. Then something could happen which would allow their continued existence in the real universe, a new Gallifrey! Thats waht I'd want, I dont think I'd want them confined to cyberspace although.... http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/The_Matrix
Well they wouldn't have to all be confined to cyberspace permanently. It could just be some of them, or even just Rassilon because he'll do almost anything to be immortal won't he?
They could cause more trouble than you might be expecting, they could interfere with the Goverment, or the stock exchange, or maybe even air traffic control centres or rail signals. Oh and I'm sure there will be a future episode where those Google smartphone glasses are some kind of conspiracy.
Also, I'd imagine them as all being bad, the time war devestating all time. The Time Lords could be the next big baddie.
I would like this very much, maybe one or two nice ones though, but the others do Horribly Twisted Things to them? (Like maybe not just making them stand with their hands over their faces to shame them like in TEOT, but a severe whipping is also involved, and possibly getting them stuck on an abandoned planet on purpose)
I wouldn't want the majority of Time Lords being bad. That wouldn't fit with previous portrayals of them. There are plenty enough bad eggs (the Master, the Rani, Omega, the Meddling Monk) without needing the whole race to be Evil.
Only the Time Lords and the Daleks were affected (and, the Time Lords were removed from every point of time - past and future - by that action).
I don't think the Time Lords were removed from every point of time, past or future, because the tenth Doctor actually met the fifth Doctor in Time Crash. That clearly happened outside of the time lock.
As the Doctor himself said, 'Think of a bubble. Nothing can get in or out'. That implies that the time period inside the time lock still exists, its just sealed off from the rest of the universe outside of it.
Clearly the Doctor had to be protected from the effect otherwise he would not have existed in the Universe any more than the other Time Lords. So the Doctor and the TARDIS could not have been trapped by the Time Lock.
I would assume that as it was stated to be the Doctor that used the 'moment' to destroy both the Time Lords and the Daleks, that he too would have been responsible for creating the time lock.
I don't think the Time Lords were removed from every point of time, past or future, because the tenth Doctor actually met the fifth Doctor in Time Crash. That clearly happened outside of the time lock.
As the Doctor himself said, 'Think of a bubble. Nothing can get in or out'. That implies that the time period inside the time lock still exists, its just sealed off from the rest of the universe outside of it.
I would assume that as it was stated to be the Doctor that used the 'moment' to destroy both the Time Lords and the Daleks, that he too would have been responsible for creating the time lock.
Yeah except if the time lords werent erased from history then the Doctor would be able to go to Gallifrey in another time. As for Time Crash, presumably things are different for the Doctor, well, we know they are as he's still alive
I don't think the Time Lords were removed from every point of time, past or future, because the tenth Doctor actually met the fifth Doctor in Time Crash. That clearly happened outside of the time lock.
Since when did the fifth Doctor ever feature in the New series?
If the Time Lords weren't erased everywhere and everywhen then whenever the Doctor goes back in time, Gallifrey will be there and Time Lords could be there visiting from other time lines. Plus all the Time Lords that were travelling in the future would still be there in the future. Clearly this isn't the case. All the Time Lords were removed from space time completely otherwise the Doctor would be bumping into them continuously and could pop back in time to visit them whenever he felt
lonely.
Not to mention the fact that any Time Lords travelling in the future would have noticed the absence of Gallifrey and taken steps to make sure that future doesn't happen. Only removing them from all points of existence simultaneously could the Time Trap ever have worked.
Cool. Must have missed that first time round. That was neat
Doesn't make any difference to the argument though. It's just more proof that the Doctor wasn't caught in the Time Trap. All the Time Lords were removed from the time stream except him which means he's still present throughout history and is perfectly capable of meeting himself if his time streams collide.
There are two ways that you can bring the Timelords back
a) They may not exist at this point in time - but they did exist at some point (otherwise there would be no Doctor). it therefore follows that all you need to do is go back in time and voila
b) A parallel universe - they would be at least three potential parallel universes
There are two ways that you can bring the Timelords back
a) They may not exist at this point in time - but they did exist at some point (otherwise there would be no Doctor). it therefore follows that all you need to do is go back in time and voila
.
Yes, but as I've already argued, they do not exist in the past any more than the future. They're time travellers so, if they existed in the past, they could travel to the future and would, therefore, be all over the future.
What's more every time the Doctor travelled back in the past, they'd be there.
The only way the Time Lock can work is if the Time Lords are removed from all points of time: past, present and future.
The fact that the Doctor exists despite this paradox is because he was outside the effect - probably outside space/time itself - and protected from the reality shift when the Time Lords were removed from existence.
Seems to me, though, that since they're all just locked away it would be easy to bring them back. Just have somebody unlock what ever lock the Doctor locked
If the Time Lords weren't erased everywhere and everywhen then whenever the Doctor goes back in time, Gallifrey will be there and Time Lords could be there visiting from other time lines. Plus all the Time Lords that were travelling in the future would still be there in the future. Clearly this isn't the case. All the Time Lords were removed from space time completely otherwise the Doctor would be bumping into them continuously and could pop back in time to visit them whenever he felt lonely.
The major problem with trying to understand the effects of the Time Lock and the Time War and the Moment is that no-one knows how they work, what they do, what the consequences are.
All we know is that the Time Lords and Gallifrey no longer exist, the Daleks were supposed to be trapped but narrowly escaped, and the Doctor is incapable of or unwilling to undo it.
There's no point trying to reason it out and understand how it all works from a technical standpoint, because it makes no literal sense at all. It does whatever the writers have needed it to, because killing off time-travelling species is a problem.
Well, you would simply have to set up a school for dishing out the Time Lord acadamy exam certificates. You could probably just set up one of those correspondance education colleges, like the one "Dr" (not actually a Doctor at all) Gillian McKeith got her "science" (not actually science) doctorate (not actually a doctorate) from.
The major problem with trying to understand the effects of the Time Lock and the Time War and the Moment is that no-one knows how they work, what they do, what the consequences are.
All we know is that the Time Lords and Gallifrey no longer exist, the Daleks were supposed to be trapped but narrowly escaped, and the Doctor is incapable of or unwilling to undo it.
There's no point trying to reason it out and understand how it all works from a technical standpoint, because it makes no literal sense at all. It does whatever the writers have needed it to, because killing off time-travelling species is a problem.
That's very true. If you start to examine it too closely you start to notice certain anomalies.
For example, if the Master escaped by being human at the time of the Time Lock then he wasn't removed from Time which means that, as with the Doctor, his past and future Time Lord selves shouldn't have been removed either, which means that the Doctor should have been able to sense him as he moved around in Time.
Furthermore, if the Time Lords are removed from existence then a lot of the early missions that the Doctor went on, which were directed by the Time Lords would not have happened which would have led to major rewrites to recorded history where several catastrophes would no longer have been averted by the Doctor.
Plus there's that whole thing in episode two of the new Who where the Doctor travels to the far future and someone there scans him and recognizes him as Gallifreyan and sympathises with him on the loss of his people. If the Time Lords were removed from existence how do people of that future time have knowledge of them at all and if they weren't removed from all existence then how come Time Lords from the past aren't visiting that far future all the time?
As you say, it was really just a plot device to remove the Time Lords from the new series but the implementation of that device doesn't really stand up to too much scrutiny!
Well, you would simply have to set up a school for dishing out the Time Lord acadamy exam certificates. You could probably just set up one of those correspondance education colleges, like the one "Dr" (not actually a Doctor at all) Gillian McKeith got her "science" (not actually science) doctorate (not actually a doctorate) from.
No, I mean that River isn't genetically Gallifreyan. She has bits of Timelordiness, but is mostly human.
That's very true. If you start to examine it too closely you start to notice certain anomalies.
A time lock, like a wizard, is neither anomalous or rational. It behaves precisely as it means to. Which is to say, it can't possibly be anomalous for not making sense - because it doesn't even make sense when it's not being anomalous.
No, I mean that River isn't genetically Gallifreyan. She has bits of Timelordiness, but is mostly human.
A time lock, like a wizard, is neither anomalous or rational. It behaves precisely as it means to. Which is to say, it can't possibly be anomalous for not making sense - because it doesn't even make sense when it's not being anomalous.
Must all time lords be natives of Gallifrey? How very species-ist of them. I
suppose it's in keeping with their insular nature to not throw the acadamy doors open to all and sundry. Keep the riff raff out. The Star Trek space school had an open doors policy and look where it ended - that daft "aren't Ferengi cute" storyline.
Must all time lords be natives of Gallifrey? How very species-ist of them.
Perhaps, but then there is a genetic component to their link to TARDISes. And there can't be many species with the mental capabilities necessary to perceive all of time and space.
Besides, if Time Lords aren't necessarily Gallifreyan, there's no need for the time-vortex-orgy plan. Seems even more creepy in that light.
Perhaps, but then there is a genetic component to their link to TARDISes. And there can't be many species with the mental capabilities necessary to perceive all of time and space.
Besides, if Time Lords aren't necessarily Gallifreyan, there's no need for the time-vortex-orgy plan. Seems even more creepy in that light.
I can see that being a bit of a brain box is needed to cope and operate well at a true gallifreyan level. But River could fly the tardis and gad about time ok. I thought the vortex orgy was so that the babies would have the regeneration doodads and other wotnots grafted into them? Looks like humans, and possibly other species, can have that happen to them. We don't know if those children (eg River) would pass those characteristics on to offspring.
I think its quite a good plan to have a sort of Mark II time lord society begin. Not, perhaps, as grand and capable as the originals, but a start.
Do they need to have a blast of schism in the face for something or other too? Or is that optional?
"...the Time Lord President receives a prophecy about the future after the Time War, and so schemes to use the Master to one day escape. They are able to put a signal in the young Master's head as a small child, creating the drum beat he has heard all his life. When the Master clones himself billions of times, the Time Lord President also sends a "whitepoint star" from their home planet Gallifrey to the Master in the present day to strengthen the connection between present-day Earth and Gallifrey, which presently is "timelocked" in the middle of a Time War, shortly before its destruction, a fate which it is otherwise unable to escape. Gallifrey materialises above Earth, and all the other horrors of the Time War are likely to follow."
I dont even get why they had to get rid of the Time Lords in the first place. They could still have had the mystery they did by just not telling us about them, they could have kept the Doctors sense of sadness and loss by being cut off from his own world, portraying him as he was in the 60's a lonely rebel whose been exiled, cut off from his own planet...
I dont even get why they had to get rid of the Time Lords in the first place. They could still have had the mystery they did by just not telling us about them, they could have kept the Doctors sense of sadness and loss by being cut off from his own world, portraying him as he was in the 60's a lonely rebel whose been exiled, cut off from his own planet...
Except, by then, established continuity has the Doctor anything but an exile. He was their tool for a while and then ended up being President. For him to be back to exile status would have required more explanation and wouldn't have had the pathos of him being the last of his race.
Having said that, I agree that I don't really think that ditching the Time Lords was necessary. I preferred him being a rebel member of a super race of Galactic polcemen. I also think it kept him a little bit in check, as well. He was still answerable to them if he tried to go too far off track with his Time meddling and I think that was a good thing.
Except, by then, established continuity has the Doctor anything but an exile. He was their tool for a while and then ended up being President. For him to be back to exile status would have required more explanation and wouldn't have had the pathos of him being the last of his race.
Having said that, I agree that I don't really think that ditching the Time Lords was necessary. I preferred him being a rebel member of a super race of Galactic polcemen. I also think it kept him a little bit in check, as well. He was still answerable to them if he tried to go too far off track with his Time meddling and I think that was a good thing.
It didnt matter that theres established continuity, they could have just hardly ever mentioned them so that theres still loads of mystery for new fans. He didnt need to be an exile for his origins to be mysterious, we could just be told that he is manipulated by this mysterious race, makw them seem a little mysterious. Things like the EPIC return of the Master in series 3, you dont need all the Time Lords to be dead for that to be just as epic.
Comments
It's not about the "point in time". It's not like everybody who existed at that time was removed from the Universe. Only the Time Lords and the Daleks were affected (and, the Time Lords were removed from every point of time - past and future - by that action).
Clearly the Doctor had to be protected from the effect otherwise he would not have existed in the Universe any more than the other Time Lords. So the Doctor and the TARDIS could not have been trapped by the Time Lock.
They could cause more trouble than you might be expecting, they could interfere with the Goverment, or the stock exchange, or maybe even air traffic control centres or rail signals. Oh and I'm sure there will be a future episode where those Google smartphone glasses are some kind of conspiracy.
I would like this very much, maybe one or two nice ones though, but the others do Horribly Twisted Things to them? (Like maybe not just making them stand with their hands over their faces to shame them like in TEOT, but a severe whipping is also involved, and possibly getting them stuck on an abandoned planet on purpose)
I don't think the Time Lords were removed from every point of time, past or future, because the tenth Doctor actually met the fifth Doctor in Time Crash. That clearly happened outside of the time lock.
As the Doctor himself said, 'Think of a bubble. Nothing can get in or out'. That implies that the time period inside the time lock still exists, its just sealed off from the rest of the universe outside of it.
I would assume that as it was stated to be the Doctor that used the 'moment' to destroy both the Time Lords and the Daleks, that he too would have been responsible for creating the time lock.
Yeah except if the time lords werent erased from history then the Doctor would be able to go to Gallifrey in another time. As for Time Crash, presumably things are different for the Doctor, well, we know they are as he's still alive
Since when did the fifth Doctor ever feature in the New series?
If the Time Lords weren't erased everywhere and everywhen then whenever the Doctor goes back in time, Gallifrey will be there and Time Lords could be there visiting from other time lines. Plus all the Time Lords that were travelling in the future would still be there in the future. Clearly this isn't the case. All the Time Lords were removed from space time completely otherwise the Doctor would be bumping into them continuously and could pop back in time to visit them whenever he felt
lonely.
Not to mention the fact that any Time Lords travelling in the future would have noticed the absence of Gallifrey and taken steps to make sure that future doesn't happen. Only removing them from all points of existence simultaneously could the Time Trap ever have worked.
As I said, the fifth Doctor met the tenth in Time Crash, the CIN 2007 Special.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szuP0oBZX4g
Cool. Must have missed that first time round. That was neat
Doesn't make any difference to the argument though. It's just more proof that the Doctor wasn't caught in the Time Trap. All the Time Lords were removed from the time stream except him which means he's still present throughout history and is perfectly capable of meeting himself if his time streams collide.
a) They may not exist at this point in time - but they did exist at some point (otherwise there would be no Doctor). it therefore follows that all you need to do is go back in time and voila
b) A parallel universe - they would be at least three potential parallel universes
1. The Daleks won
2. The Timelords won
and our Timeline
3. When they both got trapped in a time lock.
So clearly they can be brought back fully.
Yes, but as I've already argued, they do not exist in the past any more than the future. They're time travellers so, if they existed in the past, they could travel to the future and would, therefore, be all over the future.
What's more every time the Doctor travelled back in the past, they'd be there.
The only way the Time Lock can work is if the Time Lords are removed from all points of time: past, present and future.
The fact that the Doctor exists despite this paradox is because he was outside the effect - probably outside space/time itself - and protected from the reality shift when the Time Lords were removed from existence.
Seems to me, though, that since they're all just locked away it would be easy to bring them back. Just have somebody unlock what ever lock the Doctor locked
1) Just get a load of men & women into the TARDIS.
2) Fly off into the Vortex.
3) Have lots & lots of sex until all the ladies are pregnant.
& Hey Presto! Nine months later they all give birth to Timelords a la Melody Pond/River Song!
The major problem with trying to understand the effects of the Time Lock and the Time War and the Moment is that no-one knows how they work, what they do, what the consequences are.
All we know is that the Time Lords and Gallifrey no longer exist, the Daleks were supposed to be trapped but narrowly escaped, and the Doctor is incapable of or unwilling to undo it.
There's no point trying to reason it out and understand how it all works from a technical standpoint, because it makes no literal sense at all. It does whatever the writers have needed it to, because killing off time-travelling species is a problem.
Except River Song isn't a Time Lord.
Well, you would simply have to set up a school for dishing out the Time Lord acadamy exam certificates. You could probably just set up one of those correspondance education colleges, like the one "Dr" (not actually a Doctor at all) Gillian McKeith got her "science" (not actually science) doctorate (not actually a doctorate) from.
That's very true. If you start to examine it too closely you start to notice certain anomalies.
For example, if the Master escaped by being human at the time of the Time Lock then he wasn't removed from Time which means that, as with the Doctor, his past and future Time Lord selves shouldn't have been removed either, which means that the Doctor should have been able to sense him as he moved around in Time.
Furthermore, if the Time Lords are removed from existence then a lot of the early missions that the Doctor went on, which were directed by the Time Lords would not have happened which would have led to major rewrites to recorded history where several catastrophes would no longer have been averted by the Doctor.
Plus there's that whole thing in episode two of the new Who where the Doctor travels to the far future and someone there scans him and recognizes him as Gallifreyan and sympathises with him on the loss of his people. If the Time Lords were removed from existence how do people of that future time have knowledge of them at all and if they weren't removed from all existence then how come Time Lords from the past aren't visiting that far future all the time?
As you say, it was really just a plot device to remove the Time Lords from the new series but the implementation of that device doesn't really stand up to too much scrutiny!
No, I mean that River isn't genetically Gallifreyan. She has bits of Timelordiness, but is mostly human.
A time lock, like a wizard, is neither anomalous or rational. It behaves precisely as it means to. Which is to say, it can't possibly be anomalous for not making sense - because it doesn't even make sense when it's not being anomalous.
Must all time lords be natives of Gallifrey? How very species-ist of them. I
suppose it's in keeping with their insular nature to not throw the acadamy doors open to all and sundry. Keep the riff raff out. The Star Trek space school had an open doors policy and look where it ended - that daft "aren't Ferengi cute" storyline.
Like the paraphrasing of Gandalf there.
Besides, if Time Lords aren't necessarily Gallifreyan, there's no need for the time-vortex-orgy plan. Seems even more creepy in that light.
I can see that being a bit of a brain box is needed to cope and operate well at a true gallifreyan level. But River could fly the tardis and gad about time ok. I thought the vortex orgy was so that the babies would have the regeneration doodads and other wotnots grafted into them? Looks like humans, and possibly other species, can have that happen to them. We don't know if those children (eg River) would pass those characteristics on to offspring.
I think its quite a good plan to have a sort of Mark II time lord society begin. Not, perhaps, as grand and capable as the originals, but a start.
Do they need to have a blast of schism in the face for something or other too? Or is that optional?
He didn't exist inside the Time Lock.
Here's the relevant extract from Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_End_of_Time
"...the Time Lord President receives a prophecy about the future after the Time War, and so schemes to use the Master to one day escape. They are able to put a signal in the young Master's head as a small child, creating the drum beat he has heard all his life. When the Master clones himself billions of times, the Time Lord President also sends a "whitepoint star" from their home planet Gallifrey to the Master in the present day to strengthen the connection between present-day Earth and Gallifrey, which presently is "timelocked" in the middle of a Time War, shortly before its destruction, a fate which it is otherwise unable to escape. Gallifrey materialises above Earth, and all the other horrors of the Time War are likely to follow."
Except, by then, established continuity has the Doctor anything but an exile. He was their tool for a while and then ended up being President. For him to be back to exile status would have required more explanation and wouldn't have had the pathos of him being the last of his race.
Having said that, I agree that I don't really think that ditching the Time Lords was necessary. I preferred him being a rebel member of a super race of Galactic polcemen. I also think it kept him a little bit in check, as well. He was still answerable to them if he tried to go too far off track with his Time meddling and I think that was a good thing.
It didnt matter that theres established continuity, they could have just hardly ever mentioned them so that theres still loads of mystery for new fans. He didnt need to be an exile for his origins to be mysterious, we could just be told that he is manipulated by this mysterious race, makw them seem a little mysterious. Things like the EPIC return of the Master in series 3, you dont need all the Time Lords to be dead for that to be just as epic.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgOQerqcj_A&feature=related