Never come across anyone holding them up as beacon
Why is it that Left-wing supporters can never criticise any attempt at Socialism?
Then you're not widely read. Chile, during it's Pinochet tyranny was often cited as a fine example of how to run a country by the likes of Milton Friedman and the Reagan and Thatcher regimes. Mexico is still referred to by American right wing economists as an example, they'd just like it to be more right wing.
For somebody who claims the high ground with regards historical knowledge you seem to forget that SA was not a Dictatorship. Care to have another go?
Germany and Italy were probably the closest to pure Dictatorships in the 20th Century and in neither of them was private ownership and control of the economy an outstanding feature.
It was apartheid SA that was referred to, are you really saying that wasn't a dictatorship?
The police kill innocent people worldwide one that comes to mind in the uk is Electrician Jean Charles de Menezes, 27, who was fatally shot by police at Stockwell Tube station on 22 July 2005, arrived in the UK from Brazil in 2002.
I take exception to this example. This man made the mistake of failing to surrender to police because he was here ILLEGALLY. Had he returned to his native country or obtained an extension on his visa, he might still be alive today. A technicality, I grant you, but technicalities only benefit the offender, not the system.
Then you're not widely read. Chile, during it's Pinochet tyranny was often cited as a fine example of how to run a country by the likes of Milton Friedman and the Reagan and Thatcher regimes.
It was apartheid SA that was referred to, are you really saying that wasn't a dictatorship?
I think that you need to check the difference between Dictatorship and Voter franchise. In the US in the 19th and most of the 20th centuries people were disenfranchised based on race, other countries do it based on gender or religion. That didnt make them a dictatorship.
You have to understand however that Venezuela has been poorly run (despite its oil wealth) for a very long time, the elite of the country misused the oil wealth and was well known for being very corrupt and to make matter worse the main parties operated as a poltical cartel. This meant by the late 1990s, Hugo Chávez came into power.
To put it this way, imagine if Britain was a developing country in decline with the 4 main parties operating as one, thus leading to the election of George Galloway.
Now to be fair Chavez was not perfect, he did little to help the economy apart from keeping oil prices high and did not do enough to improve governance (although he did much more than his predicessors) and was way to Anti-American, he is however one of the best leaders Venezuela has had in a very long time and has tried to invest in education, health and reducing poverty.
Now under his susucessor, the country remains in a poor state and there is a fair amount of grivence, but the economic and former poltical elite of the country are still bitter and sulking about their loss of power and there have been attempted coups the like, my view is that it is a mix of both real grivences and a bitter desire for revenge.
Really the opposion should stop moaning and work with the government to improve things economically, poltically and socially, while the government should stop being Anti-American and Far-Left for the sake of it...
The problem is that a nation run by dictators is not going to have a good human rights record. However the ones run along free market models may be economically more sound than ones run along Socialist models.
Good article about the situation in todays Guardian.
There was one comment that made me immediately think of this thread though....
"Now come on Rory, you have to do better than that.
We don't want to know about 56% inflation. We don't want to know about 25,000 murders a year. We don't want to know about protesters gunned down in the streets.
We don't want to know about paramilitaries and militias. We don't want to know about ordinary families protecting themselves in any way they can.
We don't want to know about complete communicational hegemony. We don't want to know about complete government control of the judiciary or a police force corrupted beyond repair.
We don't want to know about chronic shortages of basic supplies in one of the world's most oil-rich economies. We don't want to know about no toilet paper or actual paper. We don't want to know about businesses owed billions. We don't want to know about random kidnappings.
We don't want to know about power cuts. We don't want to know about potholes. We don't want to know about business owners jailed as 'speculators'. We don't want to know about the great, heroic, Chavista liberation of washing machines. And we certainly don't want to know about the war - not a metaphorical war, but an actual, violent, frequently murderous war - against the middle class.
We want fantasy, conspiracy theory and mass delusion instead. Never mind that you were based in Caracas for fully six years; this has nothing to do with anything. You are very obviously a paid CIA shill. All commenters to this forum who support Maduro - none of whom have ever set foot in Venezuela - know far, far better than you.
In short: when it comes to the ongoing tragedy that is Venezuela, we don't want to know the reality. And we would rather its people suffered forever than acknowledge that reality for a single moment."
I do seem to recall that the Attlee government nationalised the Bank of England, the health care system, the mines and the steel industry without resort to a police state. Or did I miss something?
Capitalism was introduced by foreign occupation in most countries in the world ie. as an outcome of extremely undemocratic colonial systems. Probably the majority of revolutions which led to the establishment of socialist governments had widespread popular support (eg. Vietnam, Cuba etc). The great exception is indeed the Soviet Union. The Bolsheviks were a self-concious minority.
Hmmm a bit like the liberal/metropolitan elite here, with the "we know what's best for the uneducated proles" attitude.
I take exception to this example. This man made the mistake of failing to surrender to police because he was here ILLEGALLY. Had he returned to his native country or obtained an extension on his visa, he might still be alive today. A technicality, I grant you, but technicalities only benefit the offender, not the system.
He was in the country legally, and he was never given a chance to surrender. It's amazing that after all these years people still believe those police smears. It shows what a good job the Met did at that time when they fed those lies to the press (and then tried to block an investigation into finding out the truth).
I take exception to this example. This man made the mistake of failing to surrender to police because he was here ILLEGALLY. Had he returned to his native country or obtained an extension on his visa, he might still be alive today. A technicality, I grant you, but technicalities only benefit the offender, not the system.
They thought he was an Arab terrorist, therefore his immigration status was not relevant.
Looks like we are still waiting for a socialist country to actually be solvent and not have a human rights problem
Sweden? Let me guess... it's a socialist hell when you disapprove of its laws and taxes but not socialist when you look at how rich it is and how it leads the world in human rights. Funny that....
...and this from someone who just lurves to criticise others for being partisan.
The great majority of us on here are partisan, David.
I criticise you for your unswerving parroting of one particular party's line.
Your problem is, like some others on here, that you automatically equate criticism of the government of the day with identification with the main opposition party.
Still, that is the level of politics we are encouraged to indulge in in this country.
Sweden? Let me guess... it's a socialist hell when you disapprove of its laws and taxes but not socialist when you look at how rich it is and how it leads the world in human rights. Funny that....
There's nothing socialist about Sweden, its just highly productive which means it can afford better social systems.
That's the difference between Scandinavia and here, they use productivity to solve their problems and we use immigration which makes us highly unproductive.
The great majority of us on here are partisan, David.
I criticise you for your unswerving parroting of one particular party's line.
Your problem is, like some others on here, that you automatically equate criticism of the government of the day with identification with the main opposition party.
Still, that is the level of politics we are encouraged to indulge in in this country.
I've lost count of the number of times I've said in this Forum that I want the same Coalition returned so, what "unswerving parroting of one particular party's line?"
Doesn't socialism invariably end up with corruption, greed and incompetence?
The problem with 'socialism' is that only an elite few know how it should be be implemented 'correctly', so invariably* they end up being the only ones who can wield power.
I've lost count of the number of times I've said in this Forum that I want the same Coalition returned so, what "unswerving parroting of one particular party's line?"
Clueless, as usual.
When I see you supporting Lib Dem as opposed to Tory policies I'll retract.
When I see you supporting Lib Dem as opposed to Tory policies I'll retract.
You mean like the £10k threshold, same sex marriages, scrapping ID cards, power of recall, reforming public sector pensions, taking action against bank bonuses? Those kind of things?
GGP - I couldn't give a toss whether you retract or not. Your views on this board don't exactly come overflowing with credibility. I react when you talk bollox or are just wumming for the sake of it. A tip: if you actually read other peoples posts as opposed to loftily tossing out judgements you might fare a tad better. Still, leopards and spots, I doubt it'll ever happen.
Venezuela plans to introduce supermarket fingerprinting
President Nicolas Maduro of Venezuela has announced a mandatory fingerprinting system in supermarkets to combat food shortages and smuggling. He said the system would stop people from buying too much of a single item.
The opposition blames what it says are the failed left-wing policies of the past 15 years - initiated by late President Hugo Chavez - for the country's economic crisis. Dissatisfaction with the shortage of many staples, as well as rampant crime and high inflation, led thousands of people in the western Venezuelan states of Tachira and Merida to take to the streets in January.
The protests quickly spread to the rest of Venezuela, which faces similar problems.
Comments
Then you're not widely read. Chile, during it's Pinochet tyranny was often cited as a fine example of how to run a country by the likes of Milton Friedman and the Reagan and Thatcher regimes. Mexico is still referred to by American right wing economists as an example, they'd just like it to be more right wing.
It was apartheid SA that was referred to, are you really saying that wasn't a dictatorship?
I take exception to this example. This man made the mistake of failing to surrender to police because he was here ILLEGALLY. Had he returned to his native country or obtained an extension on his visa, he might still be alive today. A technicality, I grant you, but technicalities only benefit the offender, not the system.
Links?
I think that you need to check the difference between Dictatorship and Voter franchise. In the US in the 19th and most of the 20th centuries people were disenfranchised based on race, other countries do it based on gender or religion. That didnt make them a dictatorship.
To put it this way, imagine if Britain was a developing country in decline with the 4 main parties operating as one, thus leading to the election of George Galloway.
Now to be fair Chavez was not perfect, he did little to help the economy apart from keeping oil prices high and did not do enough to improve governance (although he did much more than his predicessors) and was way to Anti-American, he is however one of the best leaders Venezuela has had in a very long time and has tried to invest in education, health and reducing poverty.
Now under his susucessor, the country remains in a poor state and there is a fair amount of grivence, but the economic and former poltical elite of the country are still bitter and sulking about their loss of power and there have been attempted coups the like, my view is that it is a mix of both real grivences and a bitter desire for revenge.
Really the opposion should stop moaning and work with the government to improve things economically, poltically and socially, while the government should stop being Anti-American and Far-Left for the sake of it...
There was one comment that made me immediately think of this thread though....
Hmmm a bit like the liberal/metropolitan elite here, with the "we know what's best for the uneducated proles" attitude.
Sounds more like Cameron, Osborne, Duncan Smith and co. to me.......
He was in the country legally, and he was never given a chance to surrender. It's amazing that after all these years people still believe those police smears. It shows what a good job the Met did at that time when they fed those lies to the press (and then tried to block an investigation into finding out the truth).
... something wrong with your belief
...and this from someone who just lurves to criticise others for being partisan.
Good catch - and a great comment. Ta.
Sweden? Let me guess... it's a socialist hell when you disapprove of its laws and taxes but not socialist when you look at how rich it is and how it leads the world in human rights. Funny that....
The great majority of us on here are partisan, David.
I criticise you for your unswerving parroting of one particular party's line.
Your problem is, like some others on here, that you automatically equate criticism of the government of the day with identification with the main opposition party.
Still, that is the level of politics we are encouraged to indulge in in this country.
There's nothing socialist about Sweden, its just highly productive which means it can afford better social systems.
That's the difference between Scandinavia and here, they use productivity to solve their problems and we use immigration which makes us highly unproductive.
I've lost count of the number of times I've said in this Forum that I want the same Coalition returned so, what "unswerving parroting of one particular party's line?"
Clueless, as usual.
Doesn't socialism invariably end up with corruption, greed and incompetence?
The problem with 'socialism' is that only an elite few know how it should be be implemented 'correctly', so invariably* they end up being the only ones who can wield power.
*invariably all.
When I see you supporting Lib Dem as opposed to Tory policies I'll retract.
You mean like the £10k threshold, same sex marriages, scrapping ID cards, power of recall, reforming public sector pensions, taking action against bank bonuses? Those kind of things?
GGP - I couldn't give a toss whether you retract or not. Your views on this board don't exactly come overflowing with credibility. I react when you talk bollox or are just wumming for the sake of it. A tip: if you actually read other peoples posts as opposed to loftily tossing out judgements you might fare a tad better. Still, leopards and spots, I doubt it'll ever happen.
Venezuela plans to introduce supermarket fingerprinting
President Nicolas Maduro of Venezuela has announced a mandatory fingerprinting system in supermarkets to combat food shortages and smuggling. He said the system would stop people from buying too much of a single item.
The opposition blames what it says are the failed left-wing policies of the past 15 years - initiated by late President Hugo Chavez - for the country's economic crisis. Dissatisfaction with the shortage of many staples, as well as rampant crime and high inflation, led thousands of people in the western Venezuelan states of Tachira and Merida to take to the streets in January.
The protests quickly spread to the rest of Venezuela, which faces similar problems.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-28891292
What a mess.