Triple layer hd dvd approved

smcbeath · 17/11/07 - 12:13

http://news.teamxbox.com/xbox/15127/DVD-Forum-Approves-Three-Layer-51GB-HD-DVDs/

HD DVD have the green light to use the triple layer, 51 gb discs. So with there not being an advantage of storage between blu ray and hd dvd does anyone think we will maybe see fox and disney coming over to the red side:)

[Deleted User] · 17/11/07 - 12:32

I think Tosh have opened the door to exactly the same mess Blu-ray has in that some releases will not provide 100% functionality on the existing user base.

As for FOX and Disney they have little interest in the DRM light (compared to Blu-ray) HD DVD format, their continued delays everytime BD+ and AACS is cracked (normally days after the latest versions are rolled out) their release schedules collapse speaks volumes.

I suppose as a HD DVD owner I should be grateful, if FOX and Disney really supported Blu-ray they could steam roller this season through shear volume of releases.

[Deleted User] · 17/11/07 - 12:36

BluRay still has a massive bitrate advantage over HDDVD. Also If BluRay adds an extra layer then it will be about 75GB.

[Deleted User] · 17/11/07 - 12:52

Omega Point wrote: »

BluRay still has a massive bitrate advantage over HDDVD. Also If BluRay adds an extra layer then it will be about 75GB.

Which in the real world is less important than the numbers suggest, but still makes a good sound bite for the masses:)

Again, the issues with backwards compatability that could plague HD DVD with triple layer will also exist with Blu-ray which even now can't support profile 1.1 across the entire existing userbase.

smcbeath · 17/11/07 - 12:52

Just reading in another forum that there is mubbles that disney was one of the yes voters in the dvd forum, wont know for sure for a couple of months when the dvd forum publish the meeting. I always thought that disney and fox were blu for 2 reasons, 1 storage and 2 copy right protection. I dont see either one as an issue now:)

As for the new discs, it seems that it may only be the first gen players that may have a problem with the discs because gen 2 and 3 use the same drives. We wont know until the first 3xlayer disc arrives.

I have always said lets leave sony and universal stay on there sides, and all the other studios go neutral, because as the sony ceo says, it looks like we have a stalement.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071109/ap_on_hi_te/sony_ceo;_ylt=AszK2i8s9giB5KyWXCSXQZMjtBAF

[Deleted User] · 17/11/07 - 16:29

best to stand back and let the dust settle, and see who wins.

the upscalers are probally winning at the moment

[Deleted User] · 18/11/07 - 16:29

unfortunately for HD-DVD

http://www.tdk.com/procommon/press/article.asp?site=corp&recid=140

so Blu-Ray is still ahead in capacity stakes.

[Deleted User] · 18/11/07 - 16:59

I am pretty sure you understand the difference between a fully ratified consumer level product and what is being done in the lab so when Blu-ray officially announce at the very least a triple layer disk then we'll talk, paper specs are pointless it's what viable in the real world that counts:)

At this point HD DVD do not have a 51 gig disk for sale, until then it's really irrelevant by the same reasoning:)

As I said the problems with changing the spec during a products lifetime is the issue of early generation hardware. Lets not forget that DVD could have added a third layer very easily (it was part of the initial spec as agreed) yet it never came to pass, wasn't really needed especially and would have been unplayable by the vast majority of players on the market.

Higher capacity optical media will certainly be valuable for PC use yet cheap hard disk and chip storage is making that less critical so perhaps another dead end for that line of optical development.

[Deleted User] · 18/11/07 - 18:07

Jarrak wrote: »

I am pretty sure you understand the difference between a fully ratified consumer level product and what is being done in the lab so when Blu-ray officially announce at the very least a triple layer disk then we'll talk, paper specs are pointless it's what viable in the real world that counts:)

At this point HD DVD do not have a 51 gig disk for sale, until then it's really irrelevant by the same reasoning:)

As I said the problems with changing the spec during a products lifetime is the issue of early generation hardware. Lets not forget that DVD could have added a third layer very easily (it was part of the initial spec as agreed) yet it never came to pass, wasn't really needed especially and would have been unplayable by the vast majority of players on the market.

Higher capacity optical media will certainly be valuable for PC use yet cheap hard disk and chip storage is making that less critical so perhaps another dead end for that line of optical development.

Blu-Ray was always quoted as being able to handle up to 8 layers,at 25GB per layer,which makes the 200GB being tested now.HD-DVD was originaly only 2 layers,which is why the first generation of players won't play the triple layer discs.

[Deleted User] · 19/11/07 - 07:12

digi al wrote: »

Blu-Ray was always quoted as being able to handle up to 8 layers,at 25GB per layer,which makes the 200GB being tested now.HD-DVD was originaly only 2 layers,which is why the first generation of players won't play the triple layer discs.

Once again until it's proven in the field not in a lab it's as pointless as the triple layer HD DVD, you can do all the R&D you want but unless it ends up in a consumer product then it's all paper talk purely for use in the PR spin that both factions are hard at work doing.

Having googled a bit there are some very old SONY interviews and news items talking about the scalability of Blu-ray media, they expect to see 100gig disks in 2007 says the 2004 dated item which also mentions a tech demonstration of an 8 layer disk.
All this sounds reasonable but then again Blu-ray was initially developed for High Def recording in Japan where 200gig would have been needed and since that collapsed thanks to DVR's we've seen no indication of anything other than dual layer on domestic movie players.

I would expect larger capacity BD-R's to appear years before movies were released on a larger capacity disk and in all honesty like DVD the extra layers will probably never be an issue for users.

GDK · 19/11/07 - 13:00

smcbeath wrote: »

>snip<
I have always said lets leave sony and universal stay on there sides, and all the other studios go neutral, because as the sony ceo says, it looks like we have a stalement.

1 remark in a 90 minute interview that's been spun beyond all belief.

Here's what was actually said, courtesy of the digitalbits:

Now then... we wanted to say a few words about all the recent brouhaha over Sony CEO Howard Stringer's "stalemate" comment from last week with regard to Blu-ray and HD-DVD. I don't know how many e-mails I've gotten in the last few days on this, either from HD-DVD fans eager to gloat that Stinger was clearly conceding the format war, or Blu-ray fans wondering why Stringer was being so pessimistic. As it turns out, he wasn't. I've done a little digging over the weekend, and have managed to obtain a transcript of his actual comments. Remember how last week, during Blu-ray fest, Warner Home Video's Dan Silverberg's comments were taken out of context by supporters of both high-def camps to suggest that Warner was about to chose sides in the format war? Except that's not what he actually said or meant to imply? This is the same sort of thing... yet another case of much ado about nothing.

The deal is this: Howard Stringer was being interviewed by Business Week's Steven J. Adler about his career at the 92nd Street Y in NYC on Thursday. He was asked a few questions about Blu-ray Disc and the format war, and he spoke about it for maybe 5 minutes out of a 90 minute interview. Here's the actual text of the relevant portion of the interview:

---begin excerpt---

Adler: Of course, one of the big fights right now is Blu-ray vs. HD-DVD for the high definition video market. I mean, the first and most obvious question is: Shouldn't there just be one format? Why should people have to choose between the two? And is there any possibility that we'll be heading there?

Stringer: I should point out that that is not part of the software battle. I mean, that's actually in some ways sort of anachronistic. We're fighting over a packaged goods hardware that will not go on forever, from a classic sense. We have a more expensive version, as Sony tends to, and Toshiba has a cheaper version, which seems to keep getting cheaper. I believe it has slowed down the progress of high definition packaged goods. Oddly, the studios kind of liked it for a while. They were able to leverage one of us against each other. But in the end, it's counterproductive. We have a sort of stalemate at the moment. As you know, they had fewer studios, but then they paid a lot of money for Paramount. So we have four studios and they have two or three studios. It's a difficult... it's a difficult fight. There was a chance to integrate it before I became CEO. This is something I inherited. And I don't know what broke down. I wish I could go back there, because I heard it was all about saving face and losing face, and all the rest of it. But it's not a battle about the digital future. That's what's so strange about it. If it doesn't work out, that doesn't say very much about where we're all going. It's just... it's a scorecard: one-nothing or something. But it doesn't mean as much as all that. PlayStation 3 will still go on playing games. It would have to have a different disk drive. And that's about it really.

Adler: So when a consumer now has to choose between the two, if they want to get into the high definition video, Wal-Mart was selling the Toshiba HD-DVD for $99 last Friday for a couple of days. Usually, it's been $199 there. I think your list price is $499 for Blu-ray. That's an enormously big difference, particularly in a slowing economy. Can you play that game with the difference being that great?

Stringer: Well... we've been selling them as fast as we're making them because the brand -- first of all, we're not the only ones selling them at that price. So is Panasonic, so is Samsung, so is Sharp. And one of the reasons it's more expensive is because it does more. The bandwidth is greater. If you just want a two-hour movie, the Toshiba version is a high definition picture. But we thought that to drive high definition into the customer's imagination, you should future-proof the disks so that you could have director's cuts, which are fairly obvious. We have six to seven hours of bandwidth available. You can have interactivity in three dimensions. We would be prepared to allow the package goods to survive much longer by making it much more innovative. But that does make the player more expensive. Now, they all come down. The race is to bring costs down. It always is in consumer electronics. So it isn't going to stay at $499.

Adler: But are you surprised by how little Toshiba can sell its unit for?

Stringer: No, because -- look, I can sell it for a dollar. I'd lose a lot of money, but if you want to go that route, it's a tough competition, and it seems to be about a lot of things, including face. So if you want to cut the price down and engage us in a price war, that's a different system. We were trying to win on the merits, which we were doing for a while until Paramount changed sides.

Adler: Microsoft seems to have an interesting role in this. They're selling add-on HD-DVD drives for the -- they're taking HD-DVD to the Xbox, and Xbox competes strongly with you. Is Microsoft kind of working in cahoots or in alliance with Toshiba on HD-DVD? Is that a competitive challenge to you?

Stringer: Only the spirits know. [laughs] Yeah... you never know with Microsoft do you? You never know. Xbox versus PS3 is sort of a subplot. What Microsoft's role is in that? I don't know. We're still selling software at a faster level than Toshiba. Obviously, we care about the software side more than the Toshiba does. It doesn't have a studio. It doesn't own a studio. So it's in our interest to -- actually the most significant thing in some ways about Blu-ray, going back to Microsoft... the Blu-ray Disc has a very high security level, which Fox in particular, but also other studios, was most excited about -- wanted to have some protection from instant ripping. So the specs that went into the Blu-ray, which were done in conjunction with many studios, had this security level. That is probably not in Microsoft's interests. The Toshiba disk is certainly far easier to rip. Whether you like that or don't like that depends on your consumer enthusiasm.

---end of excerpt---

That was the extent of it. Naturally, the one comment out of the entire 90 minutes (or even this small portion) that the AP ran with is the stalemate bit. Since then, it's been spun like crazy. We've seen commentary from people who weren't there proclaiming what a "remarkable admission" it is. Some have even gone so far as to claim that Stringer declared Blu-ray a failure and that Sony is about to give up the battle. All of which mischaracterizes what he actually said and meant.

Adding the context and the full quote "...at the moment" changes it completely. The actual inference is that the stalemate will not last.

[Deleted User] · 19/11/07 - 16:10

GDK wrote: »

Adding the context and the full quote "...at the moment" changes it completely. The actual inference is that the stalemate will not last.

You've got to love how both camps can seize on one aspect of a speech, the Warner favouring Blu-ray a few weeks ago and Sony mention stalemate. There is plenty is that speech that could be spun be either camp after all does anyone expect the whole truth from any suit:)
Thankfully UK forums are a little more level headed than US, reading some mainly US forums is both highly entertaining and shocking how the "cause" of each technology has generated some seriously deranged fans:)

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