When do we think UltraHD will become commonplace on TV like HD is?

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  • Nigel GoodwinNigel Goodwin Posts: 58,465
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    meltcity wrote: »
    Increasing the number of pixels doesn't make the picture sharper. It merely means you can sit closer or watch a proportionately larger screen without the picture looking fuzzy.

    So it makes it sharper - what a crazy suggestion.

    Your frame rate theory is completely wrong as well :p
  • gamercraiggamercraig Posts: 6,069
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    call100 wrote: »
    The clarity of 4 and 8K gives it's own realistic 3D look IMO. None of the false stuff that's produced as 3D. I've not seen one scene that looked realistic. Especially live stuff........!!

    Yes that was my initial thought too when I saw it, depth of field was amazing
  • jjnejjne Posts: 6,580
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    I don't think 4K will become mainstream for a very long time.

    However, it is still something that should be welcomed. Having niche, high quality formats on the market is something that is desperately needed by the higher-end manufacturers to justify their existence.

    In a time when a Chinese company can produce a TV, or a Blu-Ray player for half of what it would cost in a European or Japanese factory, with the cheaper set still being acceptable for the mass market, the niche manufacturers need a USP to sell to enthusiasts.

    Without products like this we run the risk of losing the high-end AV manufacturers completely, and that would be a sad day for all.
  • call100call100 Posts: 7,278
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    jjne wrote: »
    I don't think 4K will become mainstream for a very long time.

    However, it is still something that should be welcomed. Having niche, high quality formats on the market is something that is desperately needed by the higher-end manufacturers to justify their existence.

    In a time when a Chinese company can produce a TV, or a Blu-Ray player for half of what it would cost in a European or Japanese factory, with the cheaper set still being acceptable for the mass market, the niche manufacturers need a USP to sell to enthusiasts.

    Without products like this we run the risk of losing the high-end AV manufacturers completely, and that would be a sad day for all.
    You may be a tad out of thouch.... CES 2013 had plenty of Chinese TV's on show from Haier and Hisense. Including glasses free HD and 4K all on a par with the best of Korean/Japanese. Some of the styling actually surpassed the established rivals.
    Reviews were very favourable toward the offerings. Once they get into mass production later in the year the pressure will be on the Koreans and Japanese price wise. So, don't know what you class as 'a long time', but, I'd say you would be wrong....
    I think some said the same about Chinese phones a couple of years ago.......How wrong were they?
  • Nigel GoodwinNigel Goodwin Posts: 58,465
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    call100 wrote: »
    You may be a tad out of thouch.... CES 2013 had plenty of Chinese TV's on show from Haier and Hisense. Including glasses free HD and 4K all on a par with the best of Korean/Japanese. Some of the styling actually surpassed the established rivals.

    Producing a model for display at a show, and reviews on brand new sets, have nothing to do with how 'good' they are - reliability and quality of construction are usually far inferior to 'better' makes.
  • Chris FrostChris Frost Posts: 11,022
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    call100 wrote: »
    You may be a tad out of thouch.... CES 2013 had plenty of Chinese TV's on show from Haier and Hisense. Including glasses free HD and 4K all on a par with the best of Korean/Japanese. Some of the styling actually surpassed the established rivals.
    Reviews were very favourable toward the offerings. Once they get into mass production later in the year the pressure will be on the Koreans and Japanese price wise. So, don't know what you class as 'a long time', but, I'd say you would be wrong....
    I think some said the same about Chinese phones a couple of years ago.......How wrong were they?
    I have to say that I agree with a lot of this.

    Rewind 10 years and look at LG and Samsung. They shook up the market with class-leading features and a heavy push on design that the established Japanese brands couldn't match. The Koreans also lead on price. We all know that the reliability was crap, but British buyers didn't care and probably still don't. That lesson has never been learned.

    Go back far enough and you'll see the Japanese beat the British at their own game. Then the Koreans beat the Japs. Now it's the turn of the Chinese to make their assault on the volume market.
  • call100call100 Posts: 7,278
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    Producing a model for display at a show, and reviews on brand new sets, have nothing to do with how 'good' they are - reliability and quality of construction are usually far inferior to 'better' makes.

    The future is coming up fast behind you Nigel......I don't suppose you are worried as, apparently, you won't be around to see it....:eek:;)
  • Nigel GoodwinNigel Goodwin Posts: 58,465
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    call100 wrote: »
    The future is coming up fast behind you Nigel......I don't suppose you are worried as, apparently, you won't be around to see it....:eek:;)

    So you appear to think that 'magically' the Chinese have suddenly started producing reliable well made equipment - on what basis?.
  • zx50zx50 Posts: 91,267
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    I can't see it ever happening in most of our lifetimes - there seems little point, as I've said before people won't sit close enough to watch 1080 HD - so they aren't going to sit a great deal closer to get benefit from 4K.

    Incidentally, did you think the demo set looked particularly large? - we have a Sony demo set at work, and despite being 65 inch (or whatever) it doesn't look exceptionally big.

    I don't think it will take THAT long. Maybe 15 years time and they'll start advertising it/introducing it. I think high definition needs to be in almost every home before this happens though. I still think there'll be quite a few people out there that don't have high definition in their homes. It's years off yet, but I think it will arrive in maybe 15 years time.
  • jjnejjne Posts: 6,580
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    call100 wrote: »
    You may be a tad out of thouch.... CES 2013 had plenty of Chinese TV's on show from Haier and Hisense. Including glasses free HD and 4K all on a par with the best of Korean/Japanese. Some of the styling actually surpassed the established rivals.
    Reviews were very favourable toward the offerings. Once they get into mass production later in the year the pressure will be on the Koreans and Japanese price wise. So, don't know what you class as 'a long time', but, I'd say you would be wrong....
    I think some said the same about Chinese phones a couple of years ago.......How wrong were they?

    Haier and HiSense will not be releasing mass-manufactured 4K TVs any time soon. No-one will -- it's a format that will remain niche for a long time (at least the next ten years).

    The above is corporate willy-waving, nothing more.

    It's not even particularly complex or difficult to make a one-off 4K TV, using off-the-shelf components. Cello Electronics could probably knock one up if they put their minds to it.
  • Nigel GoodwinNigel Goodwin Posts: 58,465
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    jjne wrote: »
    It's not even particularly complex or difficult to make a one-off 4K TV, using off-the-shelf components.

    Except 4K panels aren't "off-the-shelf" :p

    I also wouldn't have thought the required support chips are "off the shelf" yet either, and making a TV with any hope of reasonable size (and slim is king) wouldn't be easy without the custom chips needed.

    So I would have said it's pretty complex, and pretty difficult - but certainly doable, at a cost.
  • Chris FrostChris Frost Posts: 11,022
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    jjne wrote: »
    Haier and HiSense will not be releasing mass-manufactured 4K TVs any time soon. No-one will -- it's a format that will remain niche for a long time (at least the next ten years).
    Are you sure about that?

    What about this 55" Sony, available in John Lewis, now. £3,999

    Or this Samsung 55", again available in JL now, also £3999

    These might not be Haier or HiSense but they are mass manufactured.


    There are a lot of 50"+ TVs already in the £2K-£3K price range. There are 1080p 55" sets that are just a shade under £3K. If an ordinary Joe with a fat wallet is flush enough to drop £3K on a top-of-the-range 1080p set then is £4K for "the latest thing, Sir" really so difficult contemplate? After all, the evidence is all around; people spend on things they want. It doesn't matter whether it's appropriate for the task. Look at the sales of Chelsea tractors if you want an easy example. Do you all seriously believe that all those Range Rovers, Audis, BMWs, Porsches and VWs are going anywhere near mud? It doesn't stop them being bought though, does it? Hell, even Bentley are joining the party.

    4K... it's not whether, or if. It's here, and it's here now. And do you know what, for a new technology that requires such a major specialist part as the 4K panel, the price premium isn't that big when you think about it.
  • call100call100 Posts: 7,278
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    So you appear to think that 'magically' the Chinese have suddenly started producing reliable well made equipment - on what basis?.
    Are you saying that all the Sony stuff built in China is not reliable? When Jap crap was first seen in the UK all the same arguments were used....The same when LG and Samsung started out....
    Hisense has a strategic partnership with Loewe.
    The point was that it was being suggested that 4K would take years to become main stream because the Chinese couldn't manufacture it in numbers......Well they can, and are, but, more importantly, so are the Koreans.
    jjne wrote: »
    Haier and HiSense will not be releasing mass-manufactured 4K TVs any time soon. No-one will -- it's a format that will remain niche for a long time (at least the next ten years).

    The above is corporate willy-waving, nothing more.

    It's not even particularly complex or difficult to make a one-off 4K TV, using off-the-shelf components. Cello Electronics could probably knock one up if they put their minds to it.
    Rubbish......4K panels are already in mass production...
    Innolux corp, AUO, Samsung, LG and Sharp are the main panel manufacturers. Between them they supply most of the TV makers. All have started mass producing 4K panels.
    Apple will launch their iTV later this year with a 4K panel from LG....They won't want to just sell a couple.....:rolleyes:
    2014 will see 4K being pushed like 3D is now....
  • Nigel GoodwinNigel Goodwin Posts: 58,465
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    call100 wrote: »
    Are you saying that all the Sony stuff built in China is not reliable?

    As long as equipment is manufactured to strict standards, using the correct components, and rigorously checked!! - then Chinese manufacturing is fine (as is manufacturing anywhere else in the world).

    The problem is that Chinese manufacturers have a common tendency to completely change the specifications, alter the components they use, and sub-contract to completely unapproved manufacturers.

    The Panasonic LCD panel fiasco was a prime example, where the Chinese manufacturer took it upon themselves to change to using a cheaper adhesive, resulting in mass failure of Panasonic panels. Presumably Panasonic will have reclaimed the huge warranty costs back from China?.

    An internet acquaintance of mine in the USA worked for a company having toys made in China, the first container loads were fine - random sampling proved that. When the second badge came through random sampling showed that the paint had been replaced by leaded paint - and all had to be recalled (and this was in the 2000's).

    This isn't exclusively a Chinese 'problem', a number of years ago Sharp had massive failures of line output transformers in CRT sets manufactured in Spain, when the offending transformers were sent to Japan they were found not to meet the required specification. It turned out the manager of the facility in Spain had reduced the specification for the transformer manufacturer, and pocketed the difference :D
  • Nigel GoodwinNigel Goodwin Posts: 58,465
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    call100 wrote: »
    2014 will see 4K being pushed like 3D is now....

    And 3D has done so well! :p
  • call100call100 Posts: 7,278
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    As long as equipment is manufactured to strict standards, using the correct components, and rigorously checked!! - then Chinese manufacturing is fine (as is manufacturing anywhere else in the world).

    The problem is that Chinese manufacturers have a common tendency to completely change the specifications, alter the components they use, and sub-contract to completely unapproved manufacturers.

    The Panasonic LCD panel fiasco was a prime example, where the Chinese manufacturer took it upon themselves to change to using a cheaper adhesive, resulting in mass failure of Panasonic panels. Presumably Panasonic will have reclaimed the huge warranty costs back from China?.

    An internet acquaintance of mine in the USA worked for a company having toys made in China, the first container loads were fine - random sampling proved that. When the second badge came through random sampling showed that the paint had been replaced by leaded paint - and all had to be recalled (and this was in the 2000's).

    This isn't exclusively a Chinese 'problem', a number of years ago Sharp had massive failures of line output transformers in CRT sets manufactured in Spain, when the offending transformers were sent to Japan they were found not to meet the required specification. It turned out the manager of the facility in Spain had reduced the specification for the transformer manufacturer, and pocketed the difference :D
    As you rightly say.............Not exclusively a Chinese problem
    And 3D has done so well! :p

    No, your are right, it hasn't. However, it was marketed massively and the sets have sold well. I don't like 3D and think of it as money wasted but 4K and 8K are in a different league.
    The fact that 4K will be here massively in 2014 can't be escaped from.......But, remember, your days are numbered as it won't be in your lifetime.........apparently...........:p
  • jjnejjne Posts: 6,580
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    Except 4K panels aren't "off-the-shelf" :p

    I also wouldn't have thought the required support chips are "off the shelf" yet either, and making a TV with any hope of reasonable size (and slim is king) wouldn't be easy without the custom chips needed.

    So I would have said it's pretty complex, and pretty difficult - but certainly doable, at a cost.

    They are off-the-shelf, they're just very expensive. So in terms of running off a few sets with your brand-name on -- not a problem.
    call100 wrote: »
    Rubbish......4K panels are already in mass production...
    Innolux corp, AUO, Samsung, LG and Sharp are the main panel manufacturers. Between them they supply most of the TV makers. All have started mass producing 4K panels.
    Apple will launch their iTV later this year with a 4K panel from LG....They won't want to just sell a couple.....:rolleyes:
    2014 will see 4K being pushed like 3D is now....

    Show me where I said that 4K panels weren't in mass production.

    Big difference between the parts being available, and Chinese outfits selling assembled TVs on the mass-market. Only an idiot would invest £4000 in a Chinese television -- that alone will see them off as a serious player.

    And no-one other than enthusiasts will be buying these sets until they come down in price. 4K has years in it as a premium product before it's available on supermarket cheapies -- especially given there was a major market for HD sets; where is the market for 4K currently, with no software to run on it?
  • technologisttechnologist Posts: 13,370
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    Current 4K/UHD1 panels in mass production are only 8 bit and 60 Hz if you are lucky.
    Broadcasters IF (and this is a great IF) they will emit UHD1.. will be working 12 Bit and more than 100 Hz ..... AT emission!!
  • Nigel GoodwinNigel Goodwin Posts: 58,465
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    call100 wrote: »
    The fact that 4K will be here massively in 2014 can't be escaped from

    We obviously have different ideas of what 'massively' means :p
  • Deacon1972Deacon1972 Posts: 8,171
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    jjne wrote: »
    Haier and HiSense will not be releasing mass-manufactured 4K TVs any time soon. No-one will -- it's a format that will remain niche for a long time (at least the next ten years).

    The above is corporate willy-waving, nothing more.

    It's not even particularly complex or difficult to make a one-off 4K TV, using off-the-shelf components. Cello Electronics could probably knock one up if they put their minds to it.

    As others have mentioned, 4k TV's are mass manufactured already, Sony, LG and Samsung already have 4k sets on sale now, Sony even have a 4k PJ out albeit a heavy price tag, but the displays are well priced compared to some high end 1080p displays.

    Even AV receivers are geared up for 4k.

    It'll be the 4k source we'll be waiting for, just like the wait we had when HDTV arrived. I understand Sony/Panasonic are teaming up to produce a 300GB optical disc to playback 4k material, I can certainly see 4k players/discs being available within 18months to support the 4k displays we have now, or 2nd/3rd Gen sets which will most likely be in the shops then.
  • call100call100 Posts: 7,278
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    jjne wrote: »
    Show me where I said that 4K panels weren't in mass production.

    Big difference between the parts being available, and Chinese outfits selling assembled TVs on the mass-market. Only an idiot would invest £4000 in a Chinese television -- that alone will see them off as a serious player.

    And no-one other than enthusiasts will be buying these sets until they come down in price. 4K has years in it as a premium product before it's available on supermarket cheapies -- especially given there was a major market for HD sets; where is the market for 4K currently, with no software to run on it?
    All the major manufacturers are rolling out the mass production of 4K TV's, the Chinese included.
    I agree that £4000 is silly amount to pay for a mass produced product. That's why it's expensive, it's not a mass produced one. That is why the prices will drop rapidly during 2014 as the production is ramped up.
    The days of 'Premium' tech staying 'Premium' for years, has long gone....
    As for the 'Software' (I take it you mean content)....Sony will be rolling out content on it's own channels via a new media streamer and the PS4. There will be content available via Xbox, YouTube has started a 4K section. Movies have been shot in 4k for quite some time. Viewing your own photo's on a 4K screen if you have over 8Mp camera's will be great.
    The newer BluRays are capable of upscaling to 4K. In fact the amount of available content and supported devices are growing every day.
    Your prediction of 'Years' is way, way out.....But, it's your opinion and you are entitled to it.:)
  • jjnejjne Posts: 6,580
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    We'll see. UHD has been touted already for many years -- I saw a demo of it in Sony's tech demo centre in Tokyo in 2005.

    These items will only become cheap when they are being bought in mass quantities -- this follows the software being available (and yes, that is the correct term when speaking of generic content across the board). This will take years, not months.

    And when it comes to the Chinese manufacturers, they will only be able to compete when the technology for the displays hits around £500 ... any more and they simply won't sell.
  • Chris FrostChris Frost Posts: 11,022
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    jjne wrote: »
    Show me where I said that 4K panels weren't in mass production.

    err.... right here. This is where you said it :D
    jjne wrote: »
    <SNIP>will not be releasing mass-manufactured 4K TVs any time soon. No-one will<SNIP>


    jjne wrote: »
    Only an idiot would invest £4000 in a Chinese television -- that alone will see them off as a serious player.
    Except a 4K 55" TV from China won't be £4000 because the Japs and Koreans are already there. So the Chinese set will be half or 2/3rds the going rate. And people will buy them...because they're greedy for new technology or a perceived bargain ....just like they buy Baird / Technika / Polaroid / Goodmans / Techwood / Alba / Celcus / Blaupunkt / Nurvo / DGM / Furrion / Videocon / Haier / Casio / Logik / Digihome / Evotel andGod knows how many other faceless vague brands
    jjne wrote: »
    And no-one other than enthusiasts will be buying these sets until they come down in price.
    I don't believe you're right there either. I think enthusiasts will wait for 2nd and 3rd Gen sets to come out.

    My bet is that most 1st Gen sets will go to the same homes that had 1st gen iPad and designer kitchens and wet rooms and a couple of £50K motors on the drive. These are the very antithesis of "enthusiast". There are early adopters.
    jjne wrote: »
    4K has years in it as a premium product before it's available on supermarket cheapies -- especially given there was a major market for HD sets; where is the market for 4K currently, with no software to run on it?
    That's kind of a black & white view of what one might describe as premium, isn't it? 1080p is in supermarkets, but it's also on the latest VT and ZT range from Panasonic. Are you saying it's not valid on one market or the other?

    All technology spreads given time. But that doesn't mean that the performance is equal at all levels in the market.

    As for software, sure. We had 720/768 TVs and projectors way before we had anything better than 576p to run on them. That didn't hamper sales though. Euro1080 began broadcasting HD way before 1080p TVs were in widely available. Hell, even DVD launched with just a handful of titles rather than a library of hundreds of films. It was the same for Blu-ray. Historically there's always been a a gap between display technology and the software (and method of delivery) to show it off. 4K software will follow.
  • jjnejjne Posts: 6,580
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    err.... right here. This is where you said it :D

    Err, no. Read it again. That refers to TVs, not panels.

    People won't buy a Chinese TV until it is CHEAP. 2/3 of £4000 is still waaaaaaaaaaaay too expensive.
  • call100call100 Posts: 7,278
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    jjne wrote: »
    We'll see. UHD has been touted already for many years -- I saw a demo of it in Sony's tech demo centre in Tokyo in 2005.

    These items will only become cheap when they are being bought in mass quantities -- this follows the software being available (and yes, that is the correct term when speaking of generic content across the board). This will take years, not months.

    And when it comes to the Chinese manufacturers, they will only be able to compete when the technology for the displays hits around £500 ... any more and they simply won't sell.
    I don't think you really have any idea about what is actually happening now on the 4K front. If you still think 4K will be years away from the mass market fine, leave your head in the sand.
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