I hope the good folk of this thread have cooled down enough after what was a wretched way to exit the CL to tolerate some thoughts from a well meaning neutral. The reaction to the red card has smothered some of the other discussion points to emerge from last night.
Firstly, I thought the initial tactics were spot on. Welbeck got under Alonso's feet and he was unable to dictate things. Nani's pace and positivity kept Arbeloa back and the rest of the team were ensuring service to Ronaldo was denied at source.
Where I think the wheels fell off was the lack of any reaction to Mourinho's astute substitution after the sending off. OK, United were down to ten men - but at the point they were a goal up and should have initially sacrificed a forward and kept the midfield fully manned. Valencia on for the ineffective RVP would have achieved this with the option of introducing Rooney should Real still score.
Instead, Fergie took a full 17 minutes to do anything, by which time Real had already turned things around.
I've said before that I wouldn't be shocked to see the old fox retire at the end of this season (having told no-one this time, not even Mrs Ferguson) and his reaction to last night seemed like that of a man seeing a last chance to get hold of that trophy controversially wrenched away.
The decision to seemingly drop Rooney was a very brave one to take (albeit a very sound tactical decision as it turned out) but adds fuels to my theory if the manager no longer needs to concern himself with the long term happiness of the players, especially now the league's all but sewn up.
i totally concede this conjecture is not the populist view and am happy to be disagreed with by the majority here - but I thought it was worth throwing in the ring after the events of yesterday evening.
Plenty of positives, though, in that Rafael, Cleverley and Welbeck have come on fantastically in the last year (I was bemoaner of Rafael's rashness which seems to have disappeared almost completely this season). If Welbeck could only put in such inspired performances week-in, week-out instead of on big occasions or when wearing an England shirt, he wouldn't be so frustrating.
Giggs marked his 1,000th game with an almost unreal performance for a near middle-aged man - whatever you think of his current merits, he didn't deserve to be on the losing side last night. Only RVP was disappointing from a neutral standpoint, player-wise (although Rooney touch deserted him when he came on).
The only thing I'll say on the red is that a young referee who has handed out so many cards in his 8 Turkish league games this season (something like 36 yellows, 6 reds?) shouldn't be considered ready for a match of last night's gravitas. Technically, he may be able to justify it but common sense should prevail when it comes to laws with so much slack in them.
Has it been mentioned in this admittedly contentious past 24 hours that the Real Madrid GK was excellent yesterday? Made some big saves off of our corners, including that late Vidic header in the 2nd half.
Has it been mentioned in this admittedly contentious past 24 hours that the Real Madrid GK was excellent yesterday? Made some big saves off of our corners, including that late Vidic header in the 2nd half.
Definitely a quality match from Lopes.
I praised their goalkeeper on here after the match, I agree he made some very good saves, particularly late on.
As TheSloth says, van Persie was ineffective in the main last night. I fear there's a sense that we can't bring him off because he's been the player of the season, but there's no doubting that he's going through a dry spell presently.
But the key factor is van Persie's defensive capabilities. Okay he isn't going to be back there helping out during open play which was necessary last night, but he is a huge asset when defending set pieces - few of our players can head a ball defensively as well as van Persie can.
I hope the good folk of this thread have cooled down enough after what was a wretched way to exit the CL to tolerate some thoughts from a well meaning neutral. The reaction to the red card has smothered some of the other discussion points to emerge from last night.
Firstly, I thought the initial tactics were spot on. Welbeck got under Alonso's feet and he was unable to dictate things. Nani's pace and positivity kept Arbeloa back and the rest of the team were ensuring service to Ronaldo was denied at source.
Where I think the wheels fell off was the lack of any reaction to Mourinho's astute substitution after the sending off. OK, United were down to ten men - but at the point they were a goal up and should have initially sacrificed a forward and kept the midfield fully manned. Valencia on for the ineffective RVP would have achieved this with the option of introducing Rooney should Real still score.
Instead, Fergie took a full 17 minutes to do anything, by which time Real had already turned things around.
I've said before that I wouldn't be shocked to see the old fox retire at the end of this season (having told no-one this time, not even Mrs Ferguson) and his reaction to last night seemed like that of a man seeing a last chance to get hold of that trophy controversially wrenched away.
The decision to seemingly drop Rooney was a very brave one to take (albeit a very sound tactical decision as it turned out) but adds fuels to my theory if the manager no longer needs to concern himself with the long term happiness of the players, especially now the league's all but sewn up.
i totally concede this conjecture is not the populist view and am happy to be disagreed with by the majority here - but I thought it was worth throwing in the ring after the events of yesterday evening.
Plenty of positives, though, in that Rafael, Cleverley and Welbeck have come on fantastically in the last year (I was bemoaner of Rafael's rashness which seems to have disappeared almost completely this season). If Welbeck could only put in such inspired performances week-in, week-out instead of on big occasions or when wearing an England shirt, he wouldn't be so frustrating.
Giggs marked his 1,000th game with an almost unreal performance for a near middle-aged man - whatever you think of his current merits, he didn't deserve to be on the losing side last night. Only RVP was disappointing from a neutral standpoint, player-wise (although Rooney touch deserted him when he came on).
The only thing I'll say on the red is that a young referee who has handed out so many cards in his 8 Turkish league games this season (something like 36 yellows, 6 reds?) shouldn't be considered ready for a match of last night's gravitas. Technically, he may be able to justify it but common sense should prevail when it comes to laws with so much slack in them.
I had this argument with my husband last night. I thought we should have got some subs on. It felt like the Everton game last season where Fergie was far too slow to react when Everton started to really put pressure on us.
Well that was a lovely evening, I went to Stoke to see a talk and a book signing with Guillem Balague, and he was very funny, and interesting to listen to on all things Barca and Spain in general.
Well, looks like it's been fun on here today... :rolleyes:
Some of the utter shite I've read beggars belief. I've no great issue with the likes of Liverpool, city, Chelsea etc fans taking the piss, if the situation was reversed we'd do the same to them. What is irritating is these fans of tinpot clubs who's "European campaign" consists of trips to Swansea or Cardiff coming on and just posting drivel. Reasonable debate is fine, but stuff like "red nose" "manure" etc is just infantile nonsense.
Oh well... My attitude has always been to take heart from the fact that these sad little people take more pleasure from United's misfortune than any "success" that their own no-mark outfits may ever have.
Indeed. The fact he was left out must mean he's off, nothing at all to do with the fact that we had a particular tactic and system in place to deal with Madrid and certain players in their team. A tactic which was working absolutely perfectly up until a refereeing comedian decided that 76,000 people in the ground and the millions watching around the world actually wanted to witness him being the centre of attention.
Indeed. The fact he was left out must mean he's off, nothing at all to do with the fact that we had a particular tactic and system in place to deal with Madrid and certain players in their team. A tactic which was working absolutely perfectly up until a refereeing comedian decided that 76,000 people in the ground and the millions watching around the world actually wanted to witness him being the centre of attention.
Indeed. The fact he was left out must mean he's off, nothing at all to do with the fact that we had a particular tactic and system in place to deal with Madrid and certain players in their team. A tactic which was working absolutely perfectly up until a refereeing comedian decided that 76,000 people in the ground and the millions watching around the world actually wanted to witness him being the centre of attention.
A lot of tomorrow's papers appear to be running with 'Rooney Out' stories.
They're a bit late. The BBC bloke was saying it on the match thread on Tuesday night when the team was announced!
Rooney will still be at United when he retires.
He's said more than once he wants to end his career at United.
They're probably going with this rubbish cos they've done the game to death and there's nothing else to talk about United wise til the game on Sunday.
Of course, had we won last night, no such stories would be appearing.
All very boringly predictable from the gutter press.
They're a bit late. The BBC bloke was saying it on the match thread on Tuesday night when the team was announced!
Rooney will still be at United when he retires.
He's said more than once he wants to end his career at United.
They're probably going with this rubbish cos they've done the game to death and there's nothing else to talk about United wise til the game on Sunday.
Of course, had we won last night, no such stories would be appearing.
All very boringly predictable from the gutter press.
Yep. We're going to have months of this shite aren't we?
I just turned on Sky News from a DVD before I turned the telly off for the night and in the paper review there was the front page of the Star.
I've stopped laughing now so I can write that the huge headline is:
ROONEY OUT OF MAN U
And underneath, in smaller writing:
'Ace to leave in Summer. Ronaldo to take his place' (that's the funniest, by a mile!)
And rewinding to the front pages, Right at the top of the front page of the Telegraph
'Ferguson ready to show Rooney the door'
Top of the front page of Sun
'Roo off?' I think it says under it "£25m price tag"
On the front of the Mirror
'Man U to sell £35m Rooney'
Blimey. Take your pick!
For some reason, looking at those, I was remembering a time there was similar headlines about Rooney being sold to City, for, I think it was £50m, not that long ago.
I just turned on Sky News from a DVD before I turned the telly off for the night and in the paper review there was the front page of the Star.
I've stopped laughing now so I can write that the huge headline is:
ROONEY OUT OF MAN U
And underneath, in smaller writing:
'Ace to leave in Summer. Ronaldo to take his place' (that's the funniest, by a mile!)
And rewinding to the front pages, Right at the top of the front page of the Telegraph
'Ferguson ready to show Rooney the door'
Top of the front page of Sun
'Roo off?' I think it says under it "£25m price tag"
On the front of the Mirror
'Man U to sell £35m Rooney'
Blimey. Take your pick!
For some reason, looking at those, I was remembering a time there was similar headlines about Rooney being sold to City, for, I think it was £50m, not that long ago.
These stories are no doubt as true as those are!
I remember those ones. Then there was another lot where Rooney rubbished them on twitter etc...
Comments
Firstly, I thought the initial tactics were spot on. Welbeck got under Alonso's feet and he was unable to dictate things. Nani's pace and positivity kept Arbeloa back and the rest of the team were ensuring service to Ronaldo was denied at source.
Where I think the wheels fell off was the lack of any reaction to Mourinho's astute substitution after the sending off. OK, United were down to ten men - but at the point they were a goal up and should have initially sacrificed a forward and kept the midfield fully manned. Valencia on for the ineffective RVP would have achieved this with the option of introducing Rooney should Real still score.
Instead, Fergie took a full 17 minutes to do anything, by which time Real had already turned things around.
I've said before that I wouldn't be shocked to see the old fox retire at the end of this season (having told no-one this time, not even Mrs Ferguson) and his reaction to last night seemed like that of a man seeing a last chance to get hold of that trophy controversially wrenched away.
The decision to seemingly drop Rooney was a very brave one to take (albeit a very sound tactical decision as it turned out) but adds fuels to my theory if the manager no longer needs to concern himself with the long term happiness of the players, especially now the league's all but sewn up.
i totally concede this conjecture is not the populist view and am happy to be disagreed with by the majority here - but I thought it was worth throwing in the ring after the events of yesterday evening.
Plenty of positives, though, in that Rafael, Cleverley and Welbeck have come on fantastically in the last year (I was bemoaner of Rafael's rashness which seems to have disappeared almost completely this season). If Welbeck could only put in such inspired performances week-in, week-out instead of on big occasions or when wearing an England shirt, he wouldn't be so frustrating.
Giggs marked his 1,000th game with an almost unreal performance for a near middle-aged man - whatever you think of his current merits, he didn't deserve to be on the losing side last night. Only RVP was disappointing from a neutral standpoint, player-wise (although Rooney touch deserted him when he came on).
The only thing I'll say on the red is that a young referee who has handed out so many cards in his 8 Turkish league games this season (something like 36 yellows, 6 reds?) shouldn't be considered ready for a match of last night's gravitas. Technically, he may be able to justify it but common sense should prevail when it comes to laws with so much slack in them.
Definitely a quality match from Lopes.
I'm also disappointed that Rooney wasn't brought on sooner.
We were under the cosh big time after the dismissal and didn't get our act together until Rooney was brought on in the 73rd minute.
I think we should have made a change when Modric was introduced.
I praised their goalkeeper on here after the match, I agree he made some very good saves, particularly late on.
Obviously a load of day trippers venting their frustation at the injustice of the United/Fergie bandwagon rolling along.
When you get non United fans arguing with them you know they've overstepped the mark.
But the key factor is van Persie's defensive capabilities. Okay he isn't going to be back there helping out during open play which was necessary last night, but he is a huge asset when defending set pieces - few of our players can head a ball defensively as well as van Persie can.
I had this argument with my husband last night. I thought we should have got some subs on. It felt like the Everton game last season where Fergie was far too slow to react when Everton started to really put pressure on us.
Some of the utter shite I've read beggars belief. I've no great issue with the likes of Liverpool, city, Chelsea etc fans taking the piss, if the situation was reversed we'd do the same to them. What is irritating is these fans of tinpot clubs who's "European campaign" consists of trips to Swansea or Cardiff coming on and just posting drivel. Reasonable debate is fine, but stuff like "red nose" "manure" etc is just infantile nonsense.
Oh well... My attitude has always been to take heart from the fact that these sad little people take more pleasure from United's misfortune than any "success" that their own no-mark outfits may ever have.
MUFC - Hated. Adored. Never Ignored.
What tosh .
Try and be a true sportsman and live with it .
That was not at all predictable :rolleyes:
Tbh if someone gave us an offer we couldn't refuse I may be tempted to bite their hand off.;)
I'm not a sportsman.
Indeed. The fact he was left out must mean he's off, nothing at all to do with the fact that we had a particular tactic and system in place to deal with Madrid and certain players in their team. A tactic which was working absolutely perfectly up until a refereeing comedian decided that 76,000 people in the ground and the millions watching around the world actually wanted to witness him being the centre of attention.
He'll be penciled in for the final for sure.;)
As long as Galatasary don't get there, I'd say it's nailed on.
Galatasary or inept ref in the final?
Rock or hard place?:rolleyes:
Pretty much.
If they offered 80m sure. Otherwise he should stay.
They're a bit late. The BBC bloke was saying it on the match thread on Tuesday night when the team was announced!
Rooney will still be at United when he retires.
He's said more than once he wants to end his career at United.
They're probably going with this rubbish cos they've done the game to death and there's nothing else to talk about United wise til the game on Sunday.
Of course, had we won last night, no such stories would be appearing.
All very boringly predictable from the gutter press.
Yep. We're going to have months of this shite aren't we?
I've stopped laughing now so I can write that the huge headline is:
ROONEY OUT OF MAN U
And underneath, in smaller writing:
'Ace to leave in Summer. Ronaldo to take his place' (that's the funniest, by a mile!)
And rewinding to the front pages, Right at the top of the front page of the Telegraph
'Ferguson ready to show Rooney the door'
Top of the front page of Sun
'Roo off?' I think it says under it "£25m price tag"
On the front of the Mirror
'Man U to sell £35m Rooney'
Blimey. Take your pick!
For some reason, looking at those, I was remembering a time there was similar headlines about Rooney being sold to City, for, I think it was £50m, not that long ago.
These stories are no doubt as true as those are!
I remember those ones. Then there was another lot where Rooney rubbished them on twitter etc...
In other words this is utter bullshit.
Quite.
And I'll just repeat meself and say ... had we won, Rooney being 'dropped' would not have got a mention.