It makes me question the order of the chain of events. I'm not convinced at all. Even if Saaid was prepared to leave the daughter behind ( which in itself is unbelievable) would the mother and grandmother have agreed?
They were being shot at. Hardly time to discuss or act rationally
They were being shot at. Hardly time to discuss or act rationally
But human beings tend to act irrationally in relation to their loved ones. You read about people risking their lives just to save their pets, what more their own child. Natural human instinct is self-preservation, but when it involves their child they are more likely to save the child first IMO.
But human beings tend to act irrationally in relation to their loved ones. You read about people risking their lives just to save their pets, what more their own child. Natural human instinct is self-preservation, but when it involves their child they are more likely to save the child first IMO.
I wouldn't get bogged down with stuff like that, not every father or mother is programmed to lay down their lives for their kids, self preservation is a powerful thing in a situaton were seconds can mean the difference between living or dying.
Anyway, in some Ethnic Cultures sadly female offspring are regarded inferior to male.
If I remember correctly, they claimed the father was shot in the head when outside of the car. You would have a job making it back to the car and driving it, even if the bullet had only caused minor damage.
If I remember correctly, they claimed the father was shot in the head when outside of the car. You would have a job making it back to the car and driving it, even if the bullet had only caused minor damage.
I thought when found by the cyclist the expired driver was in the driver's seat with his foot jammed on the accelerator with the rear wheels spinning ?
Only caught part of the program, but was the theory that Al Hilli had arranged to meet the cyclist to sell/pass something on to him mentioned
It would explain why both parties were shot
I think the Panorama programme is repeated tonight.
I just saw an article from The Mirror, courtesy of Google, which said that all those killed had been shot twice in the head. However a photo gallery accompanying the same article said the father had been shot three times. So I don't know. I just don't think we have all the facts. One of those helpful newspaper diagrams with details of the crime scene and sequence of events, would be useful.
So far there doesn't seem to be enough evidence at all on who the culprit was..
In my view the brother came across as a bit cool generally but I think that could have been because of the other things/disputes that were bought up.
Wasn't there any CCTV, number plate reading cameras anywhere in that vicinity? If not, it sounds like Europe needs to follow the UK's lead on CCTV and number plate reading cameras etc etc!
Edit: didn't watch the show, pretty sure I've read something about the cyclist (probably the Guardian) thought his identity was known, English??
I think possibly you're mixing up your cyclists. The one shot and killed was French; the one who was first on the scene after the killings was English, ex-RAF.
I don't think that, but I can why this is such a headache for the police. Even if they have a primary suspect (who may or may not be the elder brother) they have to build a case for the prosecution. And it's very hard to see how they could get a verdict of guilty without proper hard evidence. Because a guilty verdict needs the prosecution to convince a jury that the case is beyond reasonable doubt, and all these other matters (could the cyclist have been the real target? Was it payback for events in Iraq? Were national security forces involved?) would muddy the minds of a jury and make it near-impossible to get a guilty verdict imho. I wouldn't be at all surprised if this one is still unsolved in ten years time.
sad to say this case will probably never be solved, but for those of us with no emotional involvement with those involved it remains a point of fascination.
I thought when found by the cyclist the expired driver was in the driver's seat with his foot jammed on the accelerator with the rear wheels spinning ?
No, that was the wife who had tried to get away when she saaw the assailant.
Wasn't there any CCTV, number plate reading cameras anywhere in that vicinity? If not, it sounds like Europe needs to follow the UK's lead on CCTV and number plate reading cameras etc etc!
No it doesn't.
Two reasons why the appalling level of overt surveillance in the UK isn't going to happen: France's privacy laws make excessive cctv coverage anathema for the French; France has the same population as England spread out over triple the space. Outside major population centres (Annecy doesn't qualify) and the péages, cctv and number plate recognition would be very costly and a pointless waste of money and resources.
Although, France's sixth largest city does indeed have wall-to-wall camera surveillance - it's London.
Although, France's sixth largest city does indeed have wall-to-wall camera surveillance - it's London.
Do you mean that the sixth largest French population is in London? I didn't know that.
As for cctv - in the UK we don't have it in remote country areas either. I must say that parts of France look absolutely stunning, and I'd love to visit one day. Hopefully we'll be able to have a holiday at some stage as my husband inherited enough money recently for us to buy a house for cash, so now we're not spending half our income on rent we can spoil ourselves a bit (but I'm still keeping a tight hand on the purse strings )
I must say that parts of France look absolutely stunning, and I'd love to visit one day. Hopefully we'll be able to have a holiday at some stage as my husband inherited enough money recently for us to buy a house for cash, so now we're not spending half our income on rent we can spoil ourselves a bit (but I'm still keeping a tight hand on the purse strings )
Much of it is beautiful with fascinating chateaux. I used to go on childhood holidays to various areas down the west coast, particularly Brittany; and also to the Aquitaine and Normandy regions. So many Brits seem to know Spain rather than France but it's the reverse for me.
Only caught part of the program, but was the theory that Al Hilli had arranged to meet the cyclist to sell/pass something on to him mentioned
It would explain why both parties were shot
It certainly would be a plausable explanation, but no, the programme never covered this theory at all. I wonder why? Even in speculative terms it would be an explanation as to why the French cyclist was using an unsuitable racing cycle in that area. - Unfamiliar location, meeting at a designated spot.
I definitely think the French Police are not as forthcoming as the Prosecutor would have us believe on the documentary.
Ofcourse the material that both parties theoretically were to exchange needn't be Military, it could have been Commercial.
In spite of everything in recent years, if my family were murdered, I would still have more hope of the crime being solved by the British Police than the French or any European force.
Do you mean that the sixth largest French population is in London? I didn't know that.
Apparently so. A sufficiently significant number to persuade the French state that it was worth setting up a polling booth for French expats during the presidential elections.
I must say that parts of France look absolutely stunning, and I'd love to visit one day. Hopefully we'll be able to have a holiday at some stage...
There is an enormous range of countryside. Parts of Normandy has beautiful countryside, both inland and on the coast - Cherbourg down to Avranches (west side of the Cherbourg peninsula) has stunning beaches that are only busy in August, beautiful towns (Granville) or go into Brittany for more coastline and rugged cliffs. And on the north coast are the D-Day beaches and the cemetaries. Exceptionally thought-provoking.
The less known east of the country from Strasbourg down (6 hours easy drive from Calais) has the Vosges mountains and in Alsace, great wines and lovely towns like Colmar.
The alps are... the alps and worth visiting outside of winter sports and go further south and you get a cross between mountains and Provence. Or there's the Med and the borderlands of Spain and Andorra. If you like remote countryside and nature in the raw, have a look at the Ariége which is little known outside France.
I'm not so fond of the interior which tends to be flatter with some prairie farming (generalising here) but then you get cities like Chartres which, if you like churches, stained glass and history, is unmissable. Then you get weird but fabulous towns like le Puy-en-Velay which is south centre France and is where few bother to go but is worth the effort.
... it would be an explanation as to why the French cyclist was using an unsuitable racing cycle in that area.
I'm a bit puzzled by this - it was a metalled road, wasn't it? - even if not in great shape... and if he hadn't cycled it before, he wouldn't have known what it would be like till he tried it. So I can't see why the type of bike he was on is considered inappropriate unless he was planning to go off-road through the woods and there's no indication of that afaIaa?
Normandie - which is the part where there are really tall mountains with little villages on top and lots of lush green trees, etc? (probably not a good description ). Is it the Languedoc or Loire Valley?
More likely the Languedoc which is hilly and parts are mountainous; it has lots of hill villages with fortifications because there was a lot of conflict in that area over the centuries so the towns were built to be defended.
The Loire is in the centre and has relatively flat or "rolling" countryside. The Loire is more "lush" than the Languedoc, though - well, in summer, it is.
More likely the Languedoc which is hilly and parts are mountainous; it has lots of hill villages with fortifications because there was a lot of conflict in that area over the centuries so the towns were built to be defended.
The Loire is in the centre and has relatively flat or "rolling" countryside. The Loire is more "lush" than the Languedoc, though - well, in summer, it is.
Looks like a trip to the Languedoc will be on the list then
I think possibly you're mixing up your cyclists. The one shot and killed was French; the one who was first on the scene after the killings was English, ex-RAF.
Yes, I copped on, that I'd got them confused a couple posts later, when someone mentioned the English cyclist been passed on the same road.
Comments
They were being shot at. Hardly time to discuss or act rationally
But the're not to be believed are they?
What reason would multiple governments have to kill this family?
But human beings tend to act irrationally in relation to their loved ones. You read about people risking their lives just to save their pets, what more their own child. Natural human instinct is self-preservation, but when it involves their child they are more likely to save the child first IMO.
I wouldn't get bogged down with stuff like that, not every father or mother is programmed to lay down their lives for their kids, self preservation is a powerful thing in a situaton were seconds can mean the difference between living or dying.
Anyway, in some Ethnic Cultures sadly female offspring are regarded inferior to male.
I thought when found by the cyclist the expired driver was in the driver's seat with his foot jammed on the accelerator with the rear wheels spinning ?
It would explain why both parties were shot
Much like a BMW estate then?
I just saw an article from The Mirror, courtesy of Google, which said that all those killed had been shot twice in the head. However a photo gallery accompanying the same article said the father had been shot three times. So I don't know. I just don't think we have all the facts. One of those helpful newspaper diagrams with details of the crime scene and sequence of events, would be useful.
In my view the brother came across as a bit cool generally but I think that could have been because of the other things/disputes that were bought up.
Wasn't there any CCTV, number plate reading cameras anywhere in that vicinity? If not, it sounds like Europe needs to follow the UK's lead on CCTV and number plate reading cameras etc etc!
I don't think that, but I can why this is such a headache for the police. Even if they have a primary suspect (who may or may not be the elder brother) they have to build a case for the prosecution. And it's very hard to see how they could get a verdict of guilty without proper hard evidence. Because a guilty verdict needs the prosecution to convince a jury that the case is beyond reasonable doubt, and all these other matters (could the cyclist have been the real target? Was it payback for events in Iraq? Were national security forces involved?) would muddy the minds of a jury and make it near-impossible to get a guilty verdict imho. I wouldn't be at all surprised if this one is still unsolved in ten years time.
No, that was the wife who had tried to get away when she saaw the assailant.
No it doesn't.
Two reasons why the appalling level of overt surveillance in the UK isn't going to happen: France's privacy laws make excessive cctv coverage anathema for the French; France has the same population as England spread out over triple the space. Outside major population centres (Annecy doesn't qualify) and the péages, cctv and number plate recognition would be very costly and a pointless waste of money and resources.
Although, France's sixth largest city does indeed have wall-to-wall camera surveillance - it's London.
Do you mean that the sixth largest French population is in London? I didn't know that.
As for cctv - in the UK we don't have it in remote country areas either. I must say that parts of France look absolutely stunning, and I'd love to visit one day. Hopefully we'll be able to have a holiday at some stage as my husband inherited enough money recently for us to buy a house for cash, so now we're not spending half our income on rent we can spoil ourselves a bit (but I'm still keeping a tight hand on the purse strings
Much of it is beautiful with fascinating chateaux. I used to go on childhood holidays to various areas down the west coast, particularly Brittany; and also to the Aquitaine and Normandy regions. So many Brits seem to know Spain rather than France but it's the reverse for me.
It certainly would be a plausable explanation, but no, the programme never covered this theory at all. I wonder why? Even in speculative terms it would be an explanation as to why the French cyclist was using an unsuitable racing cycle in that area. - Unfamiliar location, meeting at a designated spot.
I definitely think the French Police are not as forthcoming as the Prosecutor would have us believe on the documentary.
Ofcourse the material that both parties theoretically were to exchange needn't be Military, it could have been Commercial.
In spite of everything in recent years, if my family were murdered, I would still have more hope of the crime being solved by the British Police than the French or any European force.
There is an enormous range of countryside. Parts of Normandy has beautiful countryside, both inland and on the coast - Cherbourg down to Avranches (west side of the Cherbourg peninsula) has stunning beaches that are only busy in August, beautiful towns (Granville) or go into Brittany for more coastline and rugged cliffs. And on the north coast are the D-Day beaches and the cemetaries. Exceptionally thought-provoking.
The less known east of the country from Strasbourg down (6 hours easy drive from Calais) has the Vosges mountains and in Alsace, great wines and lovely towns like Colmar.
The alps are... the alps
I'm not so fond of the interior which tends to be flatter with some prairie farming (generalising here) but then you get cities like Chartres which, if you like churches, stained glass and history, is unmissable. Then you get weird but fabulous towns like le Puy-en-Velay which is south centre France and is where few bother to go but is worth the effort.
/ travelogue
I'm a bit puzzled by this - it was a metalled road, wasn't it? - even if not in great shape... and if he hadn't cycled it before, he wouldn't have known what it would be like till he tried it. So I can't see why the type of bike he was on is considered inappropriate unless he was planning to go off-road through the woods and there's no indication of that afaIaa?
The Loire is in the centre and has relatively flat or "rolling" countryside. The Loire is more "lush" than the Languedoc, though - well, in summer, it is.
Looks like a trip to the Languedoc will be on the list then
Yes, I copped on, that I'd got them confused a couple posts later, when someone mentioned the English cyclist been passed on the same road.
No, it was definitely the father/husband. Definitely.
Apparently Saad had a heated argument with an unidentified man at his campsite the night before he was killed.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/10404940/Saad-al-Hilli-seen-in-heated-argument-before-Alps-murders.html