Curious rewriting of history there. You may want to read 'England's Dreaming' by Jon Savage for the best account but 'the striking imagery' was only a small part of a wider cultural context which involved a number of different strands.
Yes, the wannabe element was there but fans like Siouxsie and The Slits were the very few who couldn't play, most punks knew how to play very well. And many produced some very original and exquisite music. Siouxsie, who was a Bowie fan, included.
The punks included anarchists like Crass, Poison Girls, A Flux of Pink Indians who these days I would suspect are more likely to be New Age travellers or campaigning against climate change. I may be wrong but they had a clear political agenda.
Most punk bands like The Pistols, The Clash, The Damned etc were initially rather nihilistic rather than anarchistic although some would say just apolitical. Some developed politics, some didn't. They wanted to make their own music, that was the point. And all were very suspicious of the media quite unlike the darlings of the media which TOWIE people are.
Bowie and Bolan were all about image. Bowie had a very studied career trajectory cherry picking musical and artistic styles. He also had some fine collaborators, including Bolan, Eno, Fripp etc who helped him no end. Bowie was also pretty clueless for about the last 20 years in terms of his musical output.
Bolan's career had no such trajectory after 1973/4, he was on the comeback trail in 1977 when he died. The couple of hit songs which brought him back where little more than demos where he had tried to recovery his earlier style. But he's probably the reason I'm writing this now.
I love them both and have all their music including all their poor quality stuff I have to admit. The punk bands/artists can't be lumped in as a bunch of talentless people only concerned with image....sorry...The Clash, The Pistols, Siouxsie, The Cure, Buzzcocks..Naah.
Very well put. I'm starting to think punk was one of those 'you had to be there' things.
Bowie was also a massive influence on the New Romantics with one David Sylvian trying to be the new Bowie( he had about a tenth of the talent). Indeed the New Romantic movement, which was part of the post punk backlash against punk, was glam updated for the eighties.
I think the Stranglers were more influenced by The Doors tbh. The Velvets were certainly an influence on punk, as were The Stooges, New York Dolls, MC5.
As someone who was there at the time, I can honestly say that I never once heard anyone mentioning the Stones/Kinks/Who in connection to punk. Obviously I can only go on my own experience but I don't recall them ever being a factor.
Im sure you're right.
But I also wonder if those older bands (wouldve been listened to by the band members parents) wouldnt have been "hip" to mention, even though they may have had more of an influence on the young punk bands then they'd care to say?
Personally I think the Who are VERY punk, both in their sound and behaviour in the 60's.
Bowie was also a massive influence on the New Romantics with one David Sylvian trying to be the new Bowie( he had about a tenth of the talent). Indeed the New Romantic movement, which was part of the post punk backlash against punk, was glam updated for the eighties.
Japan my have been influenced a bit by Bowie but mostly by Roxy Music.
Im sure you're right.
But I also wonder if those older bands (wouldve been listened to by the band members parents) wouldnt have been "hip" to mention, even though they may have had more of an influence on the young punk bands then they'd care to say?
Personally I think the Who are VERY punk, both in their sound and behaviour in the 60's.
The thing with The Stranglers is that they were significantly older than the other bands - way into their 20s/30s. Drummer Jet Black was born in 1938! Punk was mostly a teen movement. The then 17 year old Julie Burchill once famously told 21 year old Johnny Rotten that he was too old to be a punk
I certainly remember that, at gigs, we used to tend to eye anyone in their 20s with a certain degree of suspicion, poor gits
By the time punk came along, The Who already had Tommy & Quadrophenia under their belts. Rock operas & concept albums were anathema to punk.
And anyone who did a 20 minute drum solo could just f*ck off & die really
Bowie was also a massive influence on the New Romantics with one David Sylvian trying to be the new Bowie( he had about a tenth of the talent). Indeed the New Romantic movement, which was part of the post punk backlash against punk, was glam updated for the eighties.
That is where Bowie was definitely more of an influence.
He even seemed to be part of that movement with his 'Ashes to Ashes' stuff.
Im sure you're right.
But I also wonder if those older bands (wouldve been listened to by the band members parents) wouldnt have been "hip" to mention, even though they may have had more of an influence on the young punk bands then they'd care to say?
Personally I think the Who are VERY punk, both in their sound and behaviour in the 60's.
Yes, I agree about The Who although they don't get mentioned much in that context. Lydon's fav band was Hawkwind????
I think the Stranglers were more influenced by The Doors tbh. The Velvets were certainly an influence on punk, as were The Stooges, New York Dolls, MC5.
As someone who was there at the time, I can honestly say that I never once heard anyone mentioning the Stones/Kinks/Who in connection to punk. Obviously I can only go on my own experience but I don't recall them ever being a factor.
The Velvets and Iggy were the bands/artists that got mentioned the most. The first band I saw at that time were The Only Ones and it's obvious who they had listened to.
Another band that had a big influence was The Ramones, check out the NI bands, The Undertones in particular, and it's obvious who they were listening to. And on that point you might check out the new movie Good Vibrations about the punk movement in Northern Ireland.
I think the Stranglers were more influenced by The Doors tbh. The Velvets were certainly an influence on punk, as were The Stooges, New York Dolls, MC5.
As someone who was there at the time, I can honestly say that I never once heard anyone mentioning the Stones/Kinks/Who in connection to punk. Obviously I can only go on my own experience but I don't recall them ever being a factor.
I agree with Punk but The Kinks and The Who did influence the New Wave era after 77. The Jam and many others cite them as an influence.
Japan my have been influenced a bit by Bowie but mostly by Roxy Music.
I preferred Japan to Roxy Music, even today when I should know better, I think the albums Quiet Life and Gentlemen Take Polaroids are better than Manifesto and Flesh + Blood.
The Velvets and Iggy were the bands/artists that got mentioned the most. The first band I saw at that time were The Only Ones and it's obvious who they had listened to.
Another band that had a big influence was The Ramones, check out the NI bands, The Undertones in particular, and it's obvious who they were listening to. And on that point you might check out the new movie Good Vibrations about the punk movement in Northern Ireland.
I prefer to forget about The Ramones. Saw them live in '77 (or was it early '78?) & they were crap. Got completely blown offstage by their support act The Rezillos. After about 20 mins a lot of people had drifted off.
I preferred Japan to Roxy Music, even today when I should know better, I think the albums Quiet Life and Gentlemen Take Polaroids are better than Manifesto and Flesh + Blood.
Maybe they are but they're nowhere close to Roxy Music, For Your Pleasure, Stranded, Country Life or Siren.
Maybe they are but they're nowhere close to Roxy Music, For Your Pleasure, Stranded, Country Life or Siren.
I picked those albums because they all came out contemporaneously. Manifesto/Quiet Life (1979) and Flesh + Blood/Gentlemen Take Polaroids (1980). I know Roxy were ultimately a better band, just not at that time.
I picked those albums because they all came out contemporaneously. Manifesto/Quiet Life (1979) and Flesh + Blood/Gentlemen Take Polaroids (1980). I know Roxy were ultimately a better band, just not at that time.
Yeah but Japan were influenced by the early Roxy stuff. They weren't innovators.
He called it plastic soul and was meant as some kind of coded insult at the state of black American music at the time.
No, it wasn't.That term pre-dated Bowie long before he made Young Americans, and it was a term he used to describe his own 'inauthentic' brand of soul music.
Well, not really.They certainly didn't invent or even popularize the power chord, so I'm not sure what this claim is based on.
You don't have to do either to invent heavy metal, you just have to produce 'You Really Got Me' in 1964. And I know all about Link Wray, power chords and Black Sabbath.
No, Paul Weller thought he was a mod.That phony must have jumped up and down like a giddy girl for hours after he watched Quadrophenia.
I tend to agree.
That 'attitude' was primarily based on upsetting mummy and daddy and spitting on one another, of course.
The simple answer to that is no, it wasn't. Not worth further comment.
It isn't right to suggest that most punk band members were very good musicians, at least when they started.
Gaye Advert seemed to play only two or three notes and all on one string. Try seeking out some early Buzzcocks footage; they were atrocious, but managed to become quite skilful very quickly.
Steve Severine wasn't much more proficient than Gaye Advert when the Banshees first started out.
There were a few good guitarists though, such as Bob Andrews of Generation X.
I'm not sure if Gang Of Four's Andy Gill was any good or not, but he certainly knew how to make an impression
He called it plastic soul and was meant as some kind of coded insult at the state of black American music at the time( actually the post classic soul, pre disco era wasn't that good for soul).
The reason why he referred to the Young Americans album as plastic soul was because he didn't consider himself to be genuinely soulful. He also didn't abandon the sound straight away, a large part of Station To Station comes from the same place as Young Americans.
Very well put. I'm starting to think punk was one of those 'you had to be there' things.
that is indeed the feeling i get going off the feedback from young music fans on here. many dont 'get' punk, i cant say i would now. but it was successful because it captured the mood of the time and when thats understood, so is punks success.
Bowie was also a massive influence on the New Romantics with one David Sylvian trying to be the new Bowie( he had about a tenth of the talent). Indeed the New Romantic movement, which was part of the post punk backlash against punk, was glam updated for the eighties.
id suggest that the new romantics existed because of punk, more then a reaction against it. many of us progressed from punk, to mod/new wave, to new romantics, after all new romantics took the basic punk ethos 'do it yourself' and 'express yourself' and did just that, and regardless of what others thought. new romanticism was about individual expression, punk ethics.
Well, not really.They certainly didn't invent or even popularize the power chord, so I'm not sure what this claim is based on.
its seen as the first track to popularise the power chord, the first to be a big hit, the first that influenced others.
No, Paul Weller thought he was a mod.That phony must have jumped up and down like a giddy girl for hours after he watched Quadrophenia.
well weller was a mod before quadrophenia was released.... however i do agree that he was a phoney, i really have a problem with him being refered to as 'the modfather', when mods were a decade earlier then him!
That 'attitude' was primarily based on upsetting mummy and daddy and spitting on one another, of course.
wrong...
punk attitude was about expressing yourself, doing it yourself, dont acceot without question what you are told. coming at a time when the uk was in a miserable place there was alot of anger amongst my generation at being told that 'you have no future'... we proved that wrong
Bowie was also a massive influence on the New Romantics with one David Sylvian trying to be the new Bowie( he had about a tenth of the talent). Indeed the New Romantic movement, which was part of the post punk backlash against punk, was glam updated for the eighties.
As others have said, the main influence for Japan seems to be Roxy Music, although there are definitely hints of Bowie in there. Also, I'd just like to defend David Sylvian! Japan may not have been wildly innovative but I'd say they were definitely one of the most talented and consistent of the 80s New Romantics, and Sylvian himself went on to release some fantastic solo albums - 'Brilliant Trees', 'Gone to Earth' and particularly 'Secrets of the Beehive' are great albums which see him getting quite experimental - at a time when Bowie and Ferry were both making some of their most commercial music.
I'd like to know who people thought Japan were imitating when they made Tin Drum.
The vocals on that album are, for the most part at least, still very Bryan Ferry-esque. And ignoring Roxy Music, Talking Heads are an obvious reference point - 'Remain in Light' in particular.
That said, it is their most inventive album and shows Sylvian's more experimental side starting to come to the fore, which would be better realised on his solo albums, in my opinion. 'Tin Drum' is still great though.
The vocals on that album are, for the most part at least, still very Bryan Ferry-esque. And ignoring Roxy Music, Talking Heads are an obvious reference point - 'Remain in Light' in particular.
That said, it is their most inventive album and shows Sylvian's more experimental side starting to come to the fore, which would be better realised on his solo albums, in my opinion. 'Tin Drum' is still great though.
Another band influenced by Roxy Even produced by Eno :cool:
As others have said, the main influence for Japan seems to be Roxy Music, although there are definitely hints of Bowie in there. Also, I'd just like to defend David Sylvian! Japan may not have been wildly innovative but I'd say they were definitely one of the most talented and consistent of the 80s New Romantics, and Sylvian himself went on to release some fantastic solo albums - 'Brilliant Trees', 'Gone to Earth' and particularly 'Secrets of the Beehive' are great albums which see him getting quite experimental - at a time when Bowie and Ferry were both making some of their most commercial music.
Without Bowie & (in particular) Roxy's earlier innovation & experimentation, he wouldn't have had the template.
Comments
Im sure you're right.
But I also wonder if those older bands (wouldve been listened to by the band members parents) wouldnt have been "hip" to mention, even though they may have had more of an influence on the young punk bands then they'd care to say?
Personally I think the Who are VERY punk, both in their sound and behaviour in the 60's.
Japan my have been influenced a bit by Bowie but mostly by Roxy Music.
The thing with The Stranglers is that they were significantly older than the other bands - way into their 20s/30s. Drummer Jet Black was born in 1938! Punk was mostly a teen movement. The then 17 year old Julie Burchill once famously told 21 year old Johnny Rotten that he was too old to be a punk
I certainly remember that, at gigs, we used to tend to eye anyone in their 20s with a certain degree of suspicion, poor gits
By the time punk came along, The Who already had Tommy & Quadrophenia under their belts. Rock operas & concept albums were anathema to punk.
And anyone who did a 20 minute drum solo could just f*ck off & die really
That is where Bowie was definitely more of an influence.
He even seemed to be part of that movement with his 'Ashes to Ashes' stuff.
Yes, I agree about The Who although they don't get mentioned much in that context. Lydon's fav band was Hawkwind????
Japan made me appreciate Roxy Music all the more.
The Velvets and Iggy were the bands/artists that got mentioned the most. The first band I saw at that time were The Only Ones and it's obvious who they had listened to.
Another band that had a big influence was The Ramones, check out the NI bands, The Undertones in particular, and it's obvious who they were listening to. And on that point you might check out the new movie Good Vibrations about the punk movement in Northern Ireland.
I agree with Punk but The Kinks and The Who did influence the New Wave era after 77. The Jam and many others cite them as an influence.
I preferred Japan to Roxy Music, even today when I should know better, I think the albums Quiet Life and Gentlemen Take Polaroids are better than Manifesto and Flesh + Blood.
I prefer to forget about The Ramones. Saw them live in '77 (or was it early '78?) & they were crap. Got completely blown offstage by their support act The Rezillos. After about 20 mins a lot of people had drifted off.
Maybe they are but they're nowhere close to Roxy Music, For Your Pleasure, Stranded, Country Life or Siren.
That's because Weller's a mod.
I picked those albums because they all came out contemporaneously. Manifesto/Quiet Life (1979) and Flesh + Blood/Gentlemen Take Polaroids (1980). I know Roxy were ultimately a better band, just not at that time.
Yeah but Japan were influenced by the early Roxy stuff. They weren't innovators.
Well, not really.They certainly didn't invent or even popularize the power chord, so I'm not sure what this claim is based on.
No, Paul Weller thought he was a mod.That phony must have jumped up and down like a giddy girl for hours after he watched Quadrophenia.
That 'attitude' was primarily based on upsetting mummy and daddy and spitting on one another, of course.
No, it wasn't.That term pre-dated Bowie long before he made Young Americans, and it was a term he used to describe his own 'inauthentic' brand of soul music.
You don't have to do either to invent heavy metal, you just have to produce 'You Really Got Me' in 1964. And I know all about Link Wray, power chords and Black Sabbath.
I tend to agree.
The simple answer to that is no, it wasn't. Not worth further comment.
Gaye Advert seemed to play only two or three notes and all on one string. Try seeking out some early Buzzcocks footage; they were atrocious, but managed to become quite skilful very quickly.
Steve Severine wasn't much more proficient than Gaye Advert when the Banshees first started out.
There were a few good guitarists though, such as Bob Andrews of Generation X.
I'm not sure if Gang Of Four's Andy Gill was any good or not, but he certainly knew how to make an impression
that is indeed the feeling i get going off the feedback from young music fans on here. many dont 'get' punk, i cant say i would now. but it was successful because it captured the mood of the time and when thats understood, so is punks success.
id suggest that the new romantics existed because of punk, more then a reaction against it. many of us progressed from punk, to mod/new wave, to new romantics, after all new romantics took the basic punk ethos 'do it yourself' and 'express yourself' and did just that, and regardless of what others thought. new romanticism was about individual expression, punk ethics.
its seen as the first track to popularise the power chord, the first to be a big hit, the first that influenced others.
well weller was a mod before quadrophenia was released.... however i do agree that he was a phoney, i really have a problem with him being refered to as 'the modfather', when mods were a decade earlier then him!
wrong...
punk attitude was about expressing yourself, doing it yourself, dont acceot without question what you are told. coming at a time when the uk was in a miserable place there was alot of anger amongst my generation at being told that 'you have no future'... we proved that wrong
As others have said, the main influence for Japan seems to be Roxy Music, although there are definitely hints of Bowie in there. Also, I'd just like to defend David Sylvian! Japan may not have been wildly innovative but I'd say they were definitely one of the most talented and consistent of the 80s New Romantics, and Sylvian himself went on to release some fantastic solo albums - 'Brilliant Trees', 'Gone to Earth' and particularly 'Secrets of the Beehive' are great albums which see him getting quite experimental - at a time when Bowie and Ferry were both making some of their most commercial music.
Or Tony Newley
The vocals on that album are, for the most part at least, still very Bryan Ferry-esque. And ignoring Roxy Music, Talking Heads are an obvious reference point - 'Remain in Light' in particular.
That said, it is their most inventive album and shows Sylvian's more experimental side starting to come to the fore, which would be better realised on his solo albums, in my opinion. 'Tin Drum' is still great though.
Another band influenced by Roxy
Without Bowie & (in particular) Roxy's earlier innovation & experimentation, he wouldn't have had the template.
Nobody's saying he's copying, just being influenced by. Tin Drum? Listen to Roxy's For Your Pleasure & Manifesto