Originally Posted by gregrichards
There should be massive protests in the streets and the UN should be getting involved I hate this country because of what is being done to the sick, disabled and vulnerable. It makes North Korea look like a civilised country. We are only one step away from concentration camps.
Well done fantastic job Ian Duncan Smith you have most likely 2,000 people's blood on your hands and will probably get a knighthood for it.
Post Of The Week
A headbutt of a diatribe, full of vein bulging exaggeration and hatred , it would be funny but I think he means every word.
Exactly, the headline is quite dramatic but in reality, there is no story here, but we can agree that IDS is a bell end!
Depends how you look at it, a doctor gives a person a medical and says not fit for work. The person is given a non medical assessment by the DWP saying fit for work
Not working and being very static at home and not exercising the mind is one of the things that is more likely to lead to decline in mental and physical health. What isn't in the figures is how many people have actually had their lives extended by enabling them to play a part in society and do some level of basic work.
Claimants can appeal and can be kept on benefit during appeal, even if they lose that benefit they then become eligible for job seekers etc
500,000 people a year die in England and Wales every year, we don't have any context around expected rates or even what the cause of death was, we also don't have any other historical figures from previous governments to compare against.
So before you become "outraged of Dorset" by the headlines, THINK.
Which will not occur. The FOI information pdf states there were 50,580 deaths within two weeks of 'ESA off-flow' between Dec 2011 and Feb 2014, of which 2,380 had a 'fit for work' decision. But there is no total figure for 'ESA off-flow' given for the period so the whole thing seems a pretty poor presentation of basic mortality statistics.
It also needs to be compared to the national average premature death rates.
For eg there were 480,000 premature deaths in England between 2011-2013
I'd imagine the majority of these were people who were not involved with the ESA etc.
40,680 people died within a year of a Work Capability Assessment between May 2010 and Feb 2013 (Out of 2,017,070).
All of them will die eventually.
DWP probably realised the shitstorm the FOI request would cause.
The Information Commissioner disagreed.
Well when you have people dying only 2 weeks after the DWP say they are fit for work, and other after only 6 weeks of the DWP saying these people are fit for work then you are going to get the shit flying. it emerged that 2,380 people died within 14 days of being taken off Employment and Support Allowance (ESA) because they were declared ‘fit to work’ after a controversial assessment process.
A further 270 died within six weeks of being taken off Incapacity Benefit or Severe Disablement Allowance – older benefits which are now being phased out – taking the total to 2,650 between December 2011 and February 2014.
And saying these people were declared fit for work without being given a medical examination
Their deaths show that they were incorrectly assessed.
I think you're the one that doesn't get it. You clearly haven't read the report as it says they don't know or have any data about the cause of death and therefore there are no figures at all to link the benefit change to the death. People are always dying, all the time, 500,000 a year.
Maybe the phrase fit is confusing you, it doesn't mean fit and healthy, it means capable of doing some level of work, it doesn't have to be physical and the numbers are so very small compared to the overall yearly death rates of the population.
Not working and being very static at home and not exercising the mind is one of the things that is more likely to lead to decline in mental and physical health. What isn't in the figures is how many people have actually had their lives extended by enabling them to play a part in society and do some level of basic work.
Claimants can appeal and can be kept on benefit during appeal, even if they lose that benefit they then become eligible for job seekers etc
500,000 people a year die in England and Wales every year, we don't have any context around expected rates or even what the cause of death was, we also don't have any other historical figures from previous governments to compare against.
So before you become "outraged of Dorset" by the headlines, THINK.
The government declared 2,380 people fit for work, the doctor said they were not fit for work, these people then pretty much immediately dropped own dead.
Do you really think 2400 people just died after having their benefits removed? Seriously? this is a non story!
They may have died but just a normal death, as someone else said, it was 2400 out of 2 million.
But they were declared fit for work by the DWP, without having a medical from the DWP. They were given a non medical assessment by the DWP. Well when you have people dying only 2 weeks after the DWP say they are fit for work, and other after only 6 weeks of the DWP saying these people are fit for work then you are going to get the shit flying. it emerged that 2,380 people died within 14 days of being taken off Employment and Support Allowance (ESA) because they were declared ‘fit to work’ after a controversial assessment process.
A further 270 died within six weeks of being taken off Incapacity Benefit or Severe Disablement Allowance – older benefits which are now being phased out – taking the total to 2,650 between December 2011 and February 2014.
And saying these people were declared fit for work without being given a medical examination
The government declared these people fit for work having seen them just a week or so earlier, the doctor said they weren't fit for work. These people dropped down dead.
Fit to work doesn't mean physically fit, it means capable of doing some level of work that they are suitable for.
20,000 people a week die in England and Wales, so we're talking about a very small number at 2,300 over the whole 5 year period who died within 2 weeks.
I think you're the one that doesn't get it. You clearly haven't read the report as it says they don't know or have any data about the cause of death and therefore there are no figures at all to link the benefit change to the death. People are always dying, all the time, 500,000 a year.
Maybe the phrase fit is confusing you, it doesn't mean fit and healthy, it means capable of doing some level of work, it doesn't have to be physical and the numbers are so very small compared to the overall yearly death rates of the population.
If a relative you know was declared fullu fit by the doctor only to drop down dead the next day due to illness, wouldn't you be asking any questions?
If a relative you know was declared fullu fit by the doctor only to drop down dead the next day due to illness, wouldn't you be asking any questions?
2.5 Million people died over the general population during that period. This figure is really only shocking to people who don't understand mathematics and probability.
They were not saying people were physically fit and healthy, they were simply saying that they were fit (as in suitable) to perform some level of work and to engage with the help available to look at some work that might be suitable, and they a) could appeal and still get that benefit during appeal and b) still be entitled to job seekers / unemployment benefit.
Within two weeks of being declared fully fit by a doctor?
They never claim to be declared "fully fit", those are your words and that isn't how it works.
The WCA uses 17 activities with associated “descriptors”
which award points to claimants based on their ability to
perform certain tasks related to the workplace. Any claimant
scoring fewer than 15 points is considered capable of work.
For example, descriptor 4 covers ‘picking up and moving by
using the upper limbs’. Being unable to pick up and carry a
0.5 litre container scores 15 points. If the person can do this
but ‘cannot transfer a light but bulky object such as a
cardboard box’ they score 9 points. The claimant’s final
score is the total from each of these activities
Support Group: The claimant has limited capability for workrelated
activity. Benefit here is paid at a higher level and claimants
are not expected to be available for work. They can, however,
volunteer themselves for work-focussed training and support.
Work Related Activity Group (WRAG): Claimants with limited
capability for work are expected to ‘take part in some work-related
activity’ and receive support to achieve this goal.
500,000 people a year die, so in the 5 year period where the 2,300 died after passing the "fit for work" (NOT a complete all clear on health) 2.5 Million people died, or 1086 people for every 1 person counted in the 2,300 figure.
you must be havin' a giraffe.
It's hard to beat Team Cripple & Death's Door Allstars for death rate. The relevant statistics are "general working population" v. the rejected claimants.
Comments
A headbutt of a diatribe, full of vein bulging exaggeration and hatred , it would be funny but I think he means every word.
Depends how you look at it, a doctor gives a person a medical and says not fit for work. The person is given a non medical assessment by the DWP saying fit for work
Really? Even Tory cheerleaders The Daily Mail are running it
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3213051/Almost-2-400-people-declared-fit-work-taken-benefits-controversial-government-crackdown-dead-TWO-WEEKS.html
40,680 people died within a year of a Work Capability Assessment between May 2010 and Feb 2013 (Out of 2,017,070).
All of them will die eventually.
DWP probably realised the shitstorm the FOI request would cause.
The Information Commissioner disagreed.
Claimants can appeal and can be kept on benefit during appeal, even if they lose that benefit they then become eligible for job seekers etc
500,000 people a year die in England and Wales every year, we don't have any context around expected rates or even what the cause of death was, we also don't have any other historical figures from previous governments to compare against.
So before you become "outraged of Dorset" by the headlines, THINK.
Do you really think 2400 people just died after having their benefits removed? Seriously? this is a non story!
They may have died but just a normal death, as someone else said, it was 2400 out of 2 million.
It also needs to be compared to the national average premature death rates.
For eg there were 480,000 premature deaths in England between 2011-2013
I'd imagine the majority of these were people who were not involved with the ESA etc.
Another one who doesn't get it.
Their deaths show that they were incorrectly assessed.
Well when you have people dying only 2 weeks after the DWP say they are fit for work, and other after only 6 weeks of the DWP saying these people are fit for work then you are going to get the shit flying. it emerged that 2,380 people died within 14 days of being taken off Employment and Support Allowance (ESA) because they were declared ‘fit to work’ after a controversial assessment process.
A further 270 died within six weeks of being taken off Incapacity Benefit or Severe Disablement Allowance – older benefits which are now being phased out – taking the total to 2,650 between December 2011 and February 2014.
And saying these people were declared fit for work without being given a medical examination
I think you're the one that doesn't get it. You clearly haven't read the report as it says they don't know or have any data about the cause of death and therefore there are no figures at all to link the benefit change to the death. People are always dying, all the time, 500,000 a year.
Maybe the phrase fit is confusing you, it doesn't mean fit and healthy, it means capable of doing some level of work, it doesn't have to be physical and the numbers are so very small compared to the overall yearly death rates of the population.
The government declared 2,380 people fit for work, the doctor said they were not fit for work, these people then pretty much immediately dropped own dead.
But they were declared fit for work by the DWP, without having a medical from the DWP. They were given a non medical assessment by the DWP. Well when you have people dying only 2 weeks after the DWP say they are fit for work, and other after only 6 weeks of the DWP saying these people are fit for work then you are going to get the shit flying. it emerged that 2,380 people died within 14 days of being taken off Employment and Support Allowance (ESA) because they were declared ‘fit to work’ after a controversial assessment process.
A further 270 died within six weeks of being taken off Incapacity Benefit or Severe Disablement Allowance – older benefits which are now being phased out – taking the total to 2,650 between December 2011 and February 2014.
And saying these people were declared fit for work without being given a medical examination
Fit to work doesn't mean physically fit, it means capable of doing some level of work that they are suitable for.
20,000 people a week die in England and Wales, so we're talking about a very small number at 2,300 over the whole 5 year period who died within 2 weeks.
If a relative you know was declared fullu fit by the doctor only to drop down dead the next day due to illness, wouldn't you be asking any questions?
Within two weeks of being declared fit by a doctor?
Nah, not under this government. It means any illness will just be brushed aside.
2.5 Million people died over the general population during that period. This figure is really only shocking to people who don't understand mathematics and probability.
They were not saying people were physically fit and healthy, they were simply saying that they were fit (as in suitable) to perform some level of work and to engage with the help available to look at some work that might be suitable, and they a) could appeal and still get that benefit during appeal and b) still be entitled to job seekers / unemployment benefit.
Within two weeks of being declared fully fit by a doctor?
Many ill people won't even appeal.
The lack of general numbers skills is quite frightening
^_^
The "final solution" redesigned by IDS..aka Dr Death and his team from Atos.
They never claim to be declared "fully fit", those are your words and that isn't how it works.
Necrophilia excepted.
- Ian "Deadly" Sniper