[Bester]

The EU should just go back to the beginning. Establish its identity, decide exactly what it is that it wants to be, and then give everyone the choice - in or out, and that's the end of it. Those that want to go ahead and press on with a union of the willing are free to do so. Those that want to no part in, won't, but they at least will not be holding back those that want to go forward. At the moment, you have a collection of nations, not all pulling in the same direction. Good for no one.

[Tequila]

Originally Posted by C19th Fox

OK - Fair enough, but sorry to see as someone of the younger generation not see the benefits of EU membership

What "benefits" of EU membership couldn't easily be sorted out under bilateral agreements with other countries as they are everywhere else in the world?

UKIP is doing the most well recruiting members from a younger age group. Young Independence I believe is doing very, very well indeed with a steady influx of new members coming into the party all the time.

We want to be good neighbours and friends with the peoples of Europe - I love Europe and love visiting and experiencing the many, many glorious cultures that it has but I hate the EU. We don't want to be stuck in a political union with an unaccountable and unelected centre deciding our laws for us.

We are Austrians, Belgians, Bulgarians, Cypriots, Czechs, Danes, Estonians, Finns, French, Germans, Greeks, Hungarians, Irish, Italians, Latvians, Lithuanians, Luxemburgers, Maltese, Dutch, Portuguese, Romanians, Slovakians, Slovenians, Spanoards, Swedes and, last but not least, British. We hold no loyalty to that flag whatsoever and never will. We are free people who want our democracies back.

[Tequila]

Originally Posted by Bester

The EU should just go back to the beginning. Establish its identity, decide exactly what it is that it wants to be, and then give everyone the choice - in or out, and that's the end of it.

An awful lot of countries might end up saying "out" if that's the case.

[Bester]

Originally Posted by Tequila

An awful lot of countries might end up saying "out" if that's the case.

If they do, they do. It's better than having them in there, pulling in the opposite direction.

The European project has become fundamentally flawed, it should never have turned into a case of "We'll take anyone". Germany, France, Benelux and the UK might have worked.

[Tequila]

Originally Posted by Bester

The European project has become fundamentally flawed, it should never have turned into a case of "We'll take anyone".

It became even more flawed because people could see the anti-democratic cracks in the EU project showing. That's why they invited most of Eastern Europe in during 2004.

[Bester]

Originally Posted by Tequila

It became even more flawed because people could see the anti-democratic cracks in the EU project showing. That's why they invited most of Eastern Europe in during 2004.

It's a matter of size. In global terms, look at the existing economic powerhouses, and then at the emerging economies - The US, China, Russia, India, Brazil - size is a common denominator, either in terms of land and natural resources, or in terms of human capital. Europe divided is becoming more and more insignificant in global terms. The only way to try and stay on anything near a level playing field is to band together. Only trouble is, it's not working, and doesn't really have much hope of working under the current setup.

Rather than carry on going down the wrong path I'd rather we just came out. Britain, and Germany could both survive outside of the EU.

[Tequila]

Originally Posted by Bester

Germany could both survive outside of the EU.

Germany is the main impetus behind the EU. Without Germany, there wouldn't be an EU.

[Bester]

Originally Posted by Tequila

Germany is the main impetus behind the EU. Without Germany, there wouldn't be an EU.

Indeed. Germany, and Britain both out would lead to a collapse, which is needed before rebuilding and a new approach can be adopted.

Only trouble again here though is that the effects of such a breakup might be catastrophic in the short-term.

[C19th Fox]

Originally Posted by Tequila

What "benefits" of EU membership couldn't easily be sorted out under bilateral agreements with other countries as they are everywhere else in the world?

Surely is it not better to negotiate those agreements with a block once rather than have multple agreements possibly with slight differences causing difficulties for international companies that want to trade in multiple countries. Does this not limit free trade?

Originally Posted by Tequila

We want to be good neighbours and friends with the peoples of Europe - I love Europe and love visiting and experiencing the many, many glorious cultures that it has but I hate the EU. We don't want to be stuck in a political union with an unaccountable and unelected centre deciding our laws for us.

How would you feel if the centre was accountable and elected?

Originally Posted by Tequila

We are Austrians, Belgians, Bulgarians, Cypriots, Czechs, Danes, Estonians, Finns, French, Germans, Greeks, Hungarians, Irish, Italians, Latvians, Lithuanians, Luxemburgers, Maltese, Dutch, Portuguese, Romanians, Slovakians, Slovenians, Spanoards, Swedes and, last but not least, British. We hold no loyalty to that flag whatsoever and never will. We are free people who want our democracies back.

Are we not however also Europeans?

[Bester]

Originally Posted by C19th Fox

Are we not however also Europeans?

Were we not Europeans before we joined the EU......?

[Tequila]

Originally Posted by Bester

Were we not Europeans before we joined the EU......?

And are the Swiss - situated right in the very epicentre of mainland Europe - not Europeans?

Oh, and I Forgot Poland. Sorry.

[C19th Fox]

Originally Posted by Bester

Were we not Europeans before we joined the EU......?

No - I remember times and generations that were anti French & German and when the national cultures were very different. Now we in this country do have a more European outlook in our culture.

[C19th Fox]

Originally Posted by Tequila

And are the Swiss - situated right in the very epicentre of mainland Europe - not Europeans?

Switzerland is a neutral country and everyone accepts it should not be alligned politically with any other country.

[Bester]

Originally Posted by C19th Fox

No - I remember times and generations that were anti French & German and when the national cultures were very different. Now we in this country do have a more European outlook in our culture.

If anything you're likely to find that there probably still is an anti-French and anti-German mindset in a certain proportion of the population. I would agree that it's nowhere near as bad as it has been, particularly in the last century. I don't think that this particularly paves the way towards a more European-centric culture however. Whilst the number of people that actually dislike the French and Germans has gone down, you'll probably find it's that because most people now don't really care about them one way or the other. Moreso than pro-actively liking them at any rate.

[Tequila]

Originally Posted by C19th Fox

Switzerland is a neutral country

You don't know much about Swiss politics then do you?

There has been a movement to propose EU membership in the past in Switzerland (mainly by the Social Democratic party there) but almost all the parties there across the political spectrum resoundingly reject it. Even the Social Democrats don't make it a major part of their policy platform these days.

The Swiss are totally relieved not to be in the EU.

[Nefrati]

Originally Posted by C19th Fox

In 1997 UKIP fought the General Election. They did not acheive any success and were overshadowed by the Referendum Party that predicted that the outcome would be a Federal Union. They obviously saw that Monetary Union could not work without Fiscal or Political Union. I have respect for what they stood for as it gave people the option to vote on how the UK people saw the future direction of Europe.
A choice of a trading block or a Federal Europe. If Europe was such a concern how come they got less than 1 million votes and a Labour Government was elected with a stance of taking the country into the Eurozone if the conditions were right?

The Murdoch Press continued to knock the EU and the effects of the expansion of the EU (which I confess I did have misgivings about) began to be felt as the number of migrant workers from Eastern Europe began to be felt. It is these factors that have all helped contribute to the eurosceptic mood and it is inevitable that politicians will pick up on this.

HOWEVER we now have politicians in the UK calling for the Eurozone to move towards a fiscal union as being the only way of resolving the Eurozone crisis yet none have had the courage apart from the Lib Dems to nail their colours to the mast of the UK being part of that federal union. Why? Because the Conservative Party has become a Eurosceptic party in opposition and Labour have had a closet Eurosceptic Chancellor and then PM in Government.

Therefore both the two main parties have been steered towards a Eurosceptic path by Murdoch and other papers rather than allowing the population the vote at the turn of the century. In effect as evidence from Leverson is suggesting Murdoch has influenced both Labour and Conservative politicians and steered them and effectively the British people away from joining the Eurozone.

Given the success of the British press in this campaign they have prevented the arguments for Fiscal Union from being made by the UK until this time of economic uncertainty when tthere is no choice but to lay the flaws of the Eurozone design on the line. We should have made it a condition that for the UK to join the Eurozone there needs to be a Fiscal Union. If we had done that then I would be entirely in favour of staying out until it happens - and indeed am - but by failing to be at the heart of Europe we have given up our say in how such a Fiscal Union is to operate.

I refute your suggestion that there has been a rise in Eurosceptism of any significance accross the Eurozone but say again that the evidence will only be apparent from the results of the 2014 European Elections.

Yea the murdoch press is what % of all media? The internet? The bbc? International news and the rest.... the constant harping on this is like how fox news screams about the left wing media at some point.

people vote for parties based on compromises, and if euro is not at the fore front of their priorities it may not mean what you think it means if they vote for that party at all. you don't get a line item veto on party positions when you vote for them. there is no mandate by labor for being totally pro eu.

politicians go for stability when it comes to other countries internal affairs. its why the us and frankly everyone else tolerates the existence of the saudi regime for instance. it has nothing to do with whether its good for the people in such countries, and it is as such when obama or cameron are pro eu, they are just concerned for their own economies.

anyways your position requires you to believe everyone else but you has been "tricked" by the press.

oh please...

[Doc Shmok]

Angela is at the Game tomorrow. Well what an incentive for Greece to win and to moon her afterwards.

I suppose the logic is that Germany is more likely to win at a quarter final and she wants to put her mug in front of the camera when they win.

In case they don't, lol ... what a bad judgement to make. Stupid cow..

I mean why in Gods name would you want to go there? Either humiliate the Greeks with you presence or give them a chance to humiliate you..

At least it will be a classic.