It's a moot point as jra has bought his Dad the laptop now and seems like it came with windows 8 but I wanted to spell out my original recommendation.
For a first-time user I think Windows 8 with touch is the way to go. Most of the criticisms for windows 8 are a) people familiar with previous versions of windows, his Dad can't miss the start button if he never had it; b) for the more advanced users who do things quickly.
Whilst Windows 8 can be used with a mouse, there's a lot of movement involved, the trackpad gestures can be unreliable and he will think keyboard shortcuts are complicated. The beauty of the touchscreen is the direct, physical connection to what is on-screen, poke a tile with your finger and the app opens up. Swiping your finger from the edges of the screen is easy enough too, the same arguments that are made in favour of tablets for people in your Dad's position. The main difference is that whilst an iPad can end up feeling limiting when it is your sole computing device, he can then progress to the more advanced stuff on the desktop side.
I really don't see any problem using a mouse with W8. Its not like 'ye olde days' of the track ball mouse where you spent an age wacking the crap out of the mouse mat to get the cursor moving.
First time user of a computer though may as well go for W8. Personally I'd say go for a desk top, you can with judicious buying get far more for your pounds over a laptop.
"Instead of developing major new versions of Windows and releasing them every two or three years, Microsoft is working toward a model in which each of its platforms will get a significant new refresh every year."
They should have done this as far back as Windows XP though I think the Vitsa bloat was to keep 'buy a new PC' OEMs happy. Microsoft could be looking at a yearly fee system though I'd very much suggest the 2013 one will be free.
as my dad said he wouldn't be comfortable with a touch pad.
Again. Thank you all for the help and advice.
ETA.
To my , I meant the first model on the left.
He's got his mouse. Plusnet have ported his telephone number (which he has had for decades) and are setting up his broadband, and all he is waiting for now is his new box of tricks.
1. It uses the Cloud to store your data - so basically you're uploading your info up to the internet where basically in theory governments can snoop on it and keep a track on you and hackers can target it (think carefully, if you're a hacker what would you target an insignificant home pc or a server containing the data of tens of thousands of home pc's in 1 place?). Although no hack has ever come publicly to light, it doesn't mean it won't happen and personally I like my data where I control it.
2. The Metro Interface in Win 8 sucks. It's great for mobile devices and business PC's but most home users would rather have a desktop picture to look at than a load of buttons. MS overlooked the home user when they conceived Metro in my opinion.
Personally I'd take security of local data storage and the aesthetics of being able to have a cheerful picture of your choice as a background over cloud storage and boring buttons.
"Instead of developing major new versions of Windows and releasing them every two or three years, Microsoft is working toward a model in which each of its platforms will get a significant new refresh every year."
They should have done this as far back as Windows XP though I think the Vitsa bloat was to keep 'buy a new PC' OEMs happy. Microsoft could be looking at a yearly fee system though I'd very much suggest the 2013 one will be free.
I don't agree. Why would you want to be forever upgrading your Windows OS on your pc?
Every new version just risks bugs. All it benefits is MS with sales from people who must have the latest version.
Can't see me ever leaving Win 7 whilst ever cloud storage exists especially if they introduce a subscription fee. MS seem to forget there are alternatives such as the Mac and whilst most people don't want to change, changes like this may well make them leave.
I'd certainly leave MS as an OS over paying either a fee or having cloud storage or Metro as and when Win 7 becomes unserviceable if there's no viable MS alternative.
1. It uses the Cloud to store your data - so basically you're uploading your info up to the internet where basically in theory governments can snoop on it and keep a track on you and hackers can target it (think carefully, if you're a hacker what would you target an insignificant home pc or a server containing the data of tens of thousands of home pc's in 1 place?). Although no hack has ever come publicly to light, it doesn't mean it won't happen and personally I like my data where I control it.
2. The Metro Interface in Win 8 sucks. It's great for mobile devices and business PC's but most home users would rather have a desktop picture to look at than a load of buttons. MS overlooked the home user when they conceived Metro in my opinion.
Personally I'd take security of local data storage and the aesthetics of being able to have a cheerful picture of your choice as a background over cloud storage and boring buttons.
I think you have no first-hand experience of 8 and third-hand information about. Answering your points in turn:
1. You can choose to sign in with a local account rather than a Microsoft account in which case the syncing doesn't occur. Even if you do sign in with a microsoft account, it only syncs your settings - what's a hacker going to do with your settings like language preferences? It doesn't sync your documents automatically - that requires you to manually install a skydrive sync client yourself.
Where is there evidence of the government snooping on windows sync data (nothing interesting there) or it sitting on an insecure server?
2. Windows 8 has a desktop environment in which one can comfortably live and rarely see the tiles.
1. It uses the Cloud to store your data - so basically you're uploading your info up to the internet where basically in theory governments can snoop on it and keep a track on you and hackers can target it (think carefully, if you're a hacker what would you target an insignificant home pc or a server containing the data of tens of thousands of home pc's in 1 place?). Although no hack has ever come publicly to light, it doesn't mean it won't happen and personally I like my data where I control it.
The above is utter drivel, only if you choose to use the cloud do you need to use it (I don't even use a Microsoft online account, ever). My data stays on my PC and backup drive/s - and any odd things I choose to upload to the cloud (not Microsoft's version!) gets securely encrypted before uploading it. Nobody's going to be reading that, least of all Microsoft and certainly not Governments or hackers!
2. The Metro Interface in Win 8 sucks. It's great for mobile devices and business PC's but most home users would rather have a desktop picture to look at than a load of buttons. MS overlooked the home user when they conceived Metro in my opinion..
You can download a free start button application like Classic Shell and never see Metro again. Doing that makes Windows 8 pretty cool (and I've got it, I'll be utterly amazed if you have!). Microsoft are still arseholes though for not including a classic start menu option in the first place.
That is not correct. Windows 8 is no different to other versions of Windows in that respect - you can use cloud-based services if you wish, or conventional programs if you prefer, or any mixture of the two.
Ah Ok then I was mistaken. I thought all Windows 8 data was stored on the cloud. If there's a local data only option then that's better.
Still don't think Metro is good for the desktop. Suits mobiles and suits business where they don't want people looking at pictures but want max productivity.
It is good if there are 3rd party apps that you can download that restore a desktop environment. Still think MS need to make this an option and still think they need to restore the video desktop option from Vista.
gets securely encrypted before uploading it. Nobody's going to be reading that, least of all Microsoft and certainly not Governments or hackers!
Dave as an side from cloud or no cloud, if you really believe that governments can't get through encryption then you're sorely mistaken as they have people breaking the military grade encryption of foreign states all of the time on huge supercomputers, and that's quite apart from the fact that you can probably guarantee that big software manufacturing companies who have huge sales to governments will probably give governments access to data in any event.
We live very much in the era of big brother and that's even if your innocent of any wrong doing.
Dave as an side from cloud or no cloud, if you really believe that governments can't get through encryption then you're sorely mistaken as they have people breaking the military grade encryption of foreign states all of the time on huge supercomputers, and that's quite apart from the fact that you can probably guarantee that big software manufacturing companies who have huge sales to governments will probably give governments access to data in any event.
We live very much in the era of big brother and that's even if your innocent of any wrong doing.
Suffice it to say there's ways and means and they won't break mine but obviously, if they are out to get you, they'll probably get you even if they can't break your encryption. By using the UK Government's "provide your password or go to jail" law if necessary. Not so easy for the Chinese etc. though (unless you put weakly encrypted stuff on your website).
All forms of encryption can be broken. However, the time taken might be so long as to render the information worthless by then. This is the basic principle behind all military codes.
In addition, with the enormous amount of information currently online any criminal or government organisation would need a strong motive before exerting any considerable effort.
All forms of encryption can be broken. However, the time taken might be so long as to render the information worthless by then. This is the basic principle behind all military codes.
That's what I meant - they (and I) would be long gone by the time they managed it if I put my mind to it.
But I don't put my mind to it, I use easily cracked passwords (for Governments) because the consequences of them being cracked would be inconsequential for me and I like an easy online life. My banking is much more secure but if someone stuck a gun or a Court Order to my head I'd just tell them anyway!
That's what I meant - they (and I) would be long gone by the time they managed it if I put my mind to it.
But I don't put my mind to it, I use easily cracked passwords (for Governments) because the consequences of them being cracked would be inconsequential for me and I like an easy online life. My banking is much more secure but if someone stuck a gun or a Court Order to my head I'd just tell them anyway!
Dave with the greatest respect you'd never even get out of the door.
With the super computers governments have even the toughest encryption can be broken in hours and that's not publicly available but true military grade encryptions.
Ordinary encryption would be minutes if not seconds, even at 256bit or above.
HDCP was broken by amateurs in double quick time in 2010.
Japanese researchers broken 1024 bit RSA in 128 days recently. The predicted break time from encryption developers was several million years.
The computers either of these groups have are nothing to what governments have at their fingertips for resources, You're talking entire buildings with Crays stacked back to back and all networked.
As a single person rather than government or military if you want to keep your data secure you should forgo encryption entirely and use code instead, where only you know the meaning.
My 78 year old MiL just got her first laptop with W8 on it. She struggled with the Metro interface so I installed Classic Shell and she's doing fine with it now.
windows 7 is my advice. a lot let space and memory required. and if you get windows 7 you can always upgrade to windows 8 in the future. there doing upgrades for £15 at the moment. Why not put your dad on a course at the local libary for free where they do new beginers to pc's.
My 78 year old MiL just got her first laptop with W8 on it. She struggled with the Metro interface so I installed Classic Shell and she's doing fine with it now.
If she can do it..........
That's hardly a glowing recommendation for W8 though, is it ?
I thought the idea behind the dumbed-down Metro interface was to make it user friendly and intuitive ? Instead, your MIL with her first laptop, had to get rid of Metro to make any sense out of it ?
That's hardly a glowing recommendation for W8 though, is it ?
I thought the idea behind the dumbed-down Metro interface was to make it user friendly and intuitive ? Instead, your MIL with her first laptop, had to get rid of Metro to make any sense out of it ?
It wasn't intended to be a glowing recommendation - just a statement of fact.
I've a touchscreen ultrabook and a laptop both with W8 - Metro is OK on the touchscreen device but just doesn't suit a non-touchscreen device IMO.
Comments
For a first-time user I think Windows 8 with touch is the way to go. Most of the criticisms for windows 8 are a) people familiar with previous versions of windows, his Dad can't miss the start button if he never had it; b) for the more advanced users who do things quickly.
Whilst Windows 8 can be used with a mouse, there's a lot of movement involved, the trackpad gestures can be unreliable and he will think keyboard shortcuts are complicated. The beauty of the touchscreen is the direct, physical connection to what is on-screen, poke a tile with your finger and the app opens up. Swiping your finger from the edges of the screen is easy enough too, the same arguments that are made in favour of tablets for people in your Dad's position. The main difference is that whilst an iPad can end up feeling limiting when it is your sole computing device, he can then progress to the more advanced stuff on the desktop side.
First time user of a computer though may as well go for W8. Personally I'd say go for a desk top, you can with judicious buying get far more for your pounds over a laptop.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/02/09/microsoft_blue_annual_releases/
They should have done this as far back as Windows XP though I think the Vitsa bloat was to keep 'buy a new PC' OEMs happy. Microsoft could be looking at a yearly fee system though I'd very much suggest the 2013 one will be free.
ETA.
To my
He's got his mouse. Plusnet have ported his telephone number (which he has had for decades) and are setting up his broadband, and all he is waiting for now is his new box of tricks.
£400 basic??
Win 8 has several drawbacks:
1. It uses the Cloud to store your data - so basically you're uploading your info up to the internet where basically in theory governments can snoop on it and keep a track on you and hackers can target it (think carefully, if you're a hacker what would you target an insignificant home pc or a server containing the data of tens of thousands of home pc's in 1 place?). Although no hack has ever come publicly to light, it doesn't mean it won't happen and personally I like my data where I control it.
2. The Metro Interface in Win 8 sucks. It's great for mobile devices and business PC's but most home users would rather have a desktop picture to look at than a load of buttons. MS overlooked the home user when they conceived Metro in my opinion.
Personally I'd take security of local data storage and the aesthetics of being able to have a cheerful picture of your choice as a background over cloud storage and boring buttons.
I don't agree. Why would you want to be forever upgrading your Windows OS on your pc?
Every new version just risks bugs. All it benefits is MS with sales from people who must have the latest version.
Can't see me ever leaving Win 7 whilst ever cloud storage exists especially if they introduce a subscription fee. MS seem to forget there are alternatives such as the Mac and whilst most people don't want to change, changes like this may well make them leave.
I'd certainly leave MS as an OS over paying either a fee or having cloud storage or Metro as and when Win 7 becomes unserviceable if there's no viable MS alternative.
I think you have no first-hand experience of 8 and third-hand information about. Answering your points in turn:
1. You can choose to sign in with a local account rather than a Microsoft account in which case the syncing doesn't occur. Even if you do sign in with a microsoft account, it only syncs your settings - what's a hacker going to do with your settings like language preferences? It doesn't sync your documents automatically - that requires you to manually install a skydrive sync client yourself.
Where is there evidence of the government snooping on windows sync data (nothing interesting there) or it sitting on an insecure server?
2. Windows 8 has a desktop environment in which one can comfortably live and rarely see the tiles.
The above is utter drivel, only if you choose to use the cloud do you need to use it (I don't even use a Microsoft online account, ever). My data stays on my PC and backup drive/s - and any odd things I choose to upload to the cloud (not Microsoft's version!) gets securely encrypted before uploading it. Nobody's going to be reading that, least of all Microsoft and certainly not Governments or hackers!
You can download a free start button application like Classic Shell and never see Metro again. Doing that makes Windows 8 pretty cool (and I've got it, I'll be utterly amazed if you have!). Microsoft are still arseholes though for not including a classic start menu option in the first place.
Are you confusing Windows 8 with Chromebooks?
Still don't think Metro is good for the desktop. Suits mobiles and suits business where they don't want people looking at pictures but want max productivity.
It is good if there are 3rd party apps that you can download that restore a desktop environment. Still think MS need to make this an option and still think they need to restore the video desktop option from Vista.
Dave as an side from cloud or no cloud, if you really believe that governments can't get through encryption then you're sorely mistaken as they have people breaking the military grade encryption of foreign states all of the time on huge supercomputers, and that's quite apart from the fact that you can probably guarantee that big software manufacturing companies who have huge sales to governments will probably give governments access to data in any event.
We live very much in the era of big brother and that's even if your innocent of any wrong doing.
Suffice it to say there's ways and means and they won't break mine but obviously, if they are out to get you, they'll probably get you even if they can't break your encryption. By using the UK Government's "provide your password or go to jail" law if necessary. Not so easy for the Chinese etc. though (unless you put weakly encrypted stuff on your website).
In addition, with the enormous amount of information currently online any criminal or government organisation would need a strong motive before exerting any considerable effort.
That's what I meant - they (and I) would be long gone by the time they managed it if I put my mind to it.
But I don't put my mind to it, I use easily cracked passwords (for Governments) because the consequences of them being cracked would be inconsequential for me and I like an easy online life. My banking is much more secure but if someone stuck a gun or a Court Order to my head I'd just tell them anyway!
Dave with the greatest respect you'd never even get out of the door.
With the super computers governments have even the toughest encryption can be broken in hours and that's not publicly available but true military grade encryptions.
Ordinary encryption would be minutes if not seconds, even at 256bit or above.
HDCP was broken by amateurs in double quick time in 2010.
Japanese researchers broken 1024 bit RSA in 128 days recently. The predicted break time from encryption developers was several million years.
The computers either of these groups have are nothing to what governments have at their fingertips for resources, You're talking entire buildings with Crays stacked back to back and all networked.
If she can do it..........
That's hardly a glowing recommendation for W8 though, is it ?
I thought the idea behind the dumbed-down Metro interface was to make it user friendly and intuitive ? Instead, your MIL with her first laptop, had to get rid of Metro to make any sense out of it ?
It wasn't intended to be a glowing recommendation - just a statement of fact.
I've a touchscreen ultrabook and a laptop both with W8 - Metro is OK on the touchscreen device but just doesn't suit a non-touchscreen device IMO.