Where has Five gone wrong?

13

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  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 2,421
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    pauldenton wrote:
    the reason i have not counted the repeats is that they are not additional material on that channel - i.e. i am highly sceptical that anyone will have watched both showings...

    I really couldn't care less whether someone will watch a repeat or not, it is totally irrelevant to the issue of what type of content a channel shows.
    pauldenton wrote:
    i (for one) do not find this remotely consistent with your claim that comedy is a "main concern" for BBC2

    That would be because you seem to be basing your “reasoning” on a false premise, i.e. , that comedy can only be a main concern for BBC2 if it shows more BBC2 only comedies than repeats of BBC1 / 3 & 4 ones, the fact is BBC2 has shown more original comedies than Channel5 and the entire ITV network put together. ( it also shows more than BBC1 ). Perhaps to you only a dedicated comedy channel places importance on comedy, here on planet earth the importance BBC2 places on comedy is clear, below is a list of a fraction of the comedies BBC2 has produced over the years, most of which received critical acclaim, some of which are regarded as among the best ever. Now I know on your world BBC2 doesn't take comedy seriously and is therefore similar to Channel5, so please feel free to post a list of Channel five comedies and we'll see how they compare. ;)

    Fawlty Towers
    Ripping Yarns
    Hitch hikers guide to the galaxy
    The Young Ones
    Red Dwarf
    I'm Alan partridge
    The Fast Show
    The Office
    Extras
    The kumars at no42
    The League of Gentlemen
    Coupling
    Bottom
    Yes Minister
    Have i Got News For You
    Monty Python's Flying Circus
    People Like Us
    Supernova
    Stella Street
    Early Doors
    Not the Nine O'Clock News
    The Mary Whitehouse Experience
    Absolutely fabulous
    pauldenton wrote:
    which analysis does not hold for C5....

    Perhaps because it wasn't an analysis of channel5, it was in response ( as the quoted text above it rather obviously showed ) to your comment on companies chasing volume going bankrupt.
    pauldenton wrote:
    and as i pointed out sunday grandstand alone is more hours of sport than they do of comedy even if you insist on allowing them to count 2 showings of the same show....


    it seems to me incontrovertible that sport is far more important to BBC2 than comedy

    Aside from the fact I disagree with the "facts" of the above is the sheer lack of logic, to take a couple of examples following your “logic”:

    - Channel5's endless showings of Columbo and bad US “made for TV” movies shown on most weekday afternoons add up to many more hours than it's football ( UEFA cup matches and odd England international ), therefore are more important.

    - Channel4's afternoon movie(s) is more important than the two channel4 news programmes, it adds up to more hours.

    Now given you think a channel set-up to try out the experimental programming its mainstream parent channel couldn't, is somehow similar to a channel setup to provide mainstream programming, I am not overly optimistic that you will understand why simply comparing the hours of different genres of programmes, which are on at different times, aimed at different audiences is pretty much irrelevant to the varying import those programmes are held in by a channel.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 1,790
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    I feel lately there has been much less of that groundbreaking comedy on BBC2, with the bbc generally favouring comedy panel quiz shows like Have I got news for you, never mind the buzzcocks and QI among others, all of them watchable but if we're talking classic sitcoms then we've had no real gems since 'the office'.
  • Wozza20Wozza20 Posts: 2,684
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    I think five are in a period of transition at the moment that will see them going into the new year in a stronger position. Five were the only terrestrial without spin-off channels until recently, and have just started producing homegrown drama and comedy which is a step forward also.

    Five have recognised their strengths to date in US imports and lifestyle programmes, and have set up two channels aimed at these particular demographics leaving the way clear to become a truly competitive channel.

    I hate fantasy listings, but with the programmes five have at their disposal, and some decent scheduling, five could become very popular if it were to look something like this:

    Monday
    8pm Documentary
    9pm CSI (New only. Repeats on Five US)
    10pm House (Can't be on US as Hallmark have rights)
    11pm Documentary

    Tuesday
    8pm Extraordinary People (Popular documentary)
    9pm CSI (New only. Repeats on Five US)
    10pm UK drama (Tripping over for example)
    11pm UK Comedy

    Wednesday
    8pm Documentary
    9pm Grey's Anatomy
    10pm UK Drama
    11pm Documentary

    Thursday
    8pm Eufa Cup football or "Movie of the Week"
    10pm Criminal Minds
    11pm The Shield

    Friday
    8pm Documentary
    9pm Law and Order
    10pm Law and Order SVU
    11pm Film

    Saturday
    8pm Documentary
    9pm Prison Break
    10pm Light entertainment (such as top 40 of something)

    Sunday
    8pm Family Film (another of five's strengths)
    10pm UK drama
    11pm UK comedy

    Like I say, I hate these sort of fantasy posts, but above makes a bit of sense to me (and I am not a TV scheduler).
    UK drama's following the biggest hits on five would make more people aware of them.
  • XIVXIV Posts: 21,495
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    Programming wise, I think Five are doing okay but I agree that the schedule needs a bit of tweaking and a bit of advertising in other medium wouldn't go amiss.

    My fantasy schedule for Five would be:

    Monday
    6.00 Home and Away
    6.30 In The Grid
    7.00 News
    7.15 Gadget Show/
    documentary strand
    8.00 Fifth Gear/documentary
    strand/Cookery Show
    9.00 documentary strand
    10.00 Prison Break/UK drama



    Tuesday
    6.00 Home and Away
    6.30 In The Grid
    7.00 News
    7.15 Tim Marlow/Brian Sewell/
    arts programmes
    8.00 Diet Doctors/Ann Maurice/
    Property Developer
    9.00 CSI: Vegas/CSI Miami
    10.00 Shark/UK drama

    Wednesday
    6.00 Home and Away
    6.30 In The Grid
    7.00 News
    7.15 wildlife documentary
    8.00 documenatry strand
    9.00 UK drama (series or one off)/lifestyle show
    10.00 UK drama (series or one off)

    Thursday
    6.00 Home and Away
    6.30 In The Grid
    7.00 News
    7.15 gameshow
    8.00 Colin and Justin/Lifestyle show
    9.00 House/Hotel Inspector/BANL
    10.00 Grey's Anatomy/Criminal Minds
    Friday

    6.00 Home and Away
    6.30 In The Grid
    7.00 News
    7.30 US comedy
    8.00 US comedy
    8.30 UK/US Comedy
    9.00 UK comedy
    9.30 UK comedy
    10.00 Law and Order/Film

    Saturday
    6.00 Film
    8.00 NCIS
    9.00 CSI:NY/CSI repeat
    10.00 Law and Order: SVU/L&O: CI

    Sunday
    6.00 Film
    8.00 Gameshow
    8.30 UK/US comedy
    9.00 Film/UK drama
    11.00 Chat Show
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 1,213
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    Micro$oft wrote:
    I really couldn't care less whether someone will watch a repeat or not, it is totally irrelevant to the issue of what type of content a channel shows.

    well if that's your view then fine - i (and i suspect most viewers) will continue to think showing the same programme twice within a week as inferior to showing 2 different programmes.....
    Micro$oft wrote:
    That would be because you seem to be basing your “reasoning” on a false premise, i.e. , that comedy can only be a main concern for BBC2 if it shows more BBC2 only comedies than repeats of BBC1 / 3 & 4 ones,

    the fact is BBC2 has shown more original comedies than Channel5 and the entire ITV network put together. ( it also shows more than BBC1 ). Perhaps to you only a dedicated comedy channel places importance on comedy, here on planet earth the importance BBC2 places on comedy is clear, below is a list of a fraction of the comedies BBC2 has produced over the years, most of which received critical acclaim, some of which are regarded as among the best ever. Now I know on your world BBC2 doesn't take comedy seriously and is therefore similar to Channel5, so please feel free to post a list of Channel five comedies and we'll see how they compare. ;)

    Fawlty Towers
    Ripping Yarns
    Hitch hikers guide to the galaxy
    The Young Ones
    Red Dwarf
    I'm Alan partridge
    The Fast Show
    The Office
    Extras
    The kumars at no42
    The League of Gentlemen
    Coupling
    Bottom
    Yes Minister
    Have i Got News For You
    Monty Python's Flying Circus
    People Like Us
    Supernova
    Stella Street
    Early Doors
    Not the Nine O'Clock News
    The Mary Whitehouse Experience
    Absolutely fabulous

    err - i'm not denying that it used to make a lot of comedy and have it as a priority..... merely that it no longer does so (as the "groundbreaking" role has been passed to BBC3...)

    i'm afraid that list just rubs that in..... :(
    Micro$oft wrote:
    Aside from the fact I disagree with the "facts" of the above is the sheer lack of logic, to take a couple of examples following your “logic”:

    - Channel5's endless showings of Columbo and bad US “made for TV” movies shown on most weekday afternoons add up to many more hours than it's football ( UEFA cup matches and odd England international ), therefore are more important.

    i do think movies are more important to five than sport...
    Micro$oft wrote:
    - Channel4's afternoon movie(s) is more important than the two channel4 news programmes, it adds up to more hours.

    i think movies are more important than news to channel 4 also.....
    Micro$oft wrote:
    Now given you think a channel set-up to try out the experimental programming its mainstream parent channel couldn't, is somehow similar to a channel setup to provide mainstream programming, I am not overly optimistic that you will understand why simply comparing the hours of different genres of programmes, which are on at different times, aimed at different audiences is pretty much irrelevant to the varying import those programmes are held in by a channel.

    i'm afraid quoting the purpose/aims
    of BBC2 when it was set up (in 1964) is hardly relevant... as it has now ceased to do this (i can't remember the last bit of "experimental programming" on BBC2* - examples??)

    *only thing that comes to mind as possibly fitting this would be Dragons Den {first series aired in 2004} - but i am unconvinced that one can describe as "experimental" a UK version of proven format that had already been shown on Japan's (commercial) NTV for 3 years {Money no Tora (money tiger) aired 2001-2004...}

    seems to me that it is now mainly just a repository for:
      (mainly) mainstream sport
      schools/OU programming
      natural history programmes
      daytime pap (either it's own or BBC1 repeats)
      BBC3/4 programming getting a terrestrial showing...
      second showings for BBC1 material
      current afffairs/politics {newsnight, daily politics etc}


    i can't see any of these being remotely describeable as "experimental"... can you?
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 49
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    There are only two programmes on FIVE worth watching... and both are on Mondays from 7:15!
  • iainiain Posts: 63,929
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    Wozza20 wrote:
    I think five are in a period of transition at the moment that will see them going into the new year in a stronger position. Five were the only terrestrial without spin-off channels until recently, and have just started producing homegrown drama and comedy which is a step forward also.

    Five have recognised their strengths to date in US imports and lifestyle programmes, and have set up two channels aimed at these particular demographics leaving the way clear to become a truly competitive channel.

    I hate fantasy listings, but with the programmes five have at their disposal, and some decent scheduling, five could become very popular if it were to look something like this:

    Monday
    8pm Documentary
    9pm CSI (New only. Repeats on Five US)
    10pm House (Can't be on US as Hallmark have rights)
    11pm Documentary

    Tuesday
    8pm Extraordinary People (Popular documentary)
    9pm CSI (New only. Repeats on Five US)
    10pm UK drama (Tripping over for example)
    11pm UK Comedy

    Wednesday
    8pm Documentary
    9pm Grey's Anatomy
    10pm UK Drama
    11pm Documentary

    Thursday
    8pm Eufa Cup football or "Movie of the Week"
    10pm Criminal Minds
    11pm The Shield

    Friday
    8pm Documentary
    9pm Law and Order
    10pm Law and Order SVU
    11pm Film

    Saturday
    8pm Documentary
    9pm Prison Break
    10pm Light entertainment (such as top 40 of something)

    Sunday
    8pm Family Film (another of five's strengths)
    10pm UK drama
    11pm UK comedy

    Like I say, I hate these sort of fantasy posts, but above makes a bit of sense to me (and I am not a TV scheduler).
    UK drama's following the biggest hits on five would make more people aware of them.

    i'd go along with that - there can be no doubt that content wise five is way better than it was, and the recent emergence of some homegrown stuff is very encouraging. thought tripping over was pretty good for a first ep, and will probably carry on watching it.

    but i agree, that if they build on the audiences of the US stuff, and start adding their own stuff, along with some half decent documentaries, and they're really starting to compare favourably with channel 4 - and there's no way in a million years you could have said that five years ago.

    Iain
  • iainiain Posts: 63,929
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    pauldenton wrote:
    well if that's your view then fine - i (and i suspect most viewers) will continue to think showing the same programme twice within a week as inferior to showing 2 different programmes.....

    depends on the quality of the programmes, the number of channels showing anything decent, and the number of hours in the week.

    i think given the current make up of tv, that a second chance to see a lot of shows is a pretty good thing.
    err - i'm not denying that it used to make a lot of comedy and have it as a priority..... merely that it no longer does so (as the "groundbreaking" role has been passed to BBC3...)

    i'm afraid that list just rubs that in..... :(

    perhaps - although anyone with BBC3 still has access to those programmes.

    and if they don't, as you say yourself, the better ones are still shown on BBC2.

    and even then, BBC2s comedy output is still greater than five's comedy output.


    i'm afraid quoting the purpose/aims
    of BBC2 when it was set up (in 1964) is hardly relevant... as it has now ceased to do this (i can't remember the last bit of "experimental programming" on BBC2* - examples??)

    *only thing that comes to mind as possibly fitting this would be Dragons Den {first series aired in 2004} - but i am unconvinced that one can describe as "experimental" a UK version of proven format that had already been shown on Japan's (commercial) NTV for 3 years {Money no Tora (money tiger) aired 2001-2004...}

    seems to me that it is now mainly just a repository for:
      (mainly) mainstream sport
      schools/OU programming
      natural history programmes
      daytime pap (either it's own or BBC1 repeats)
      BBC3/4 programming getting a terrestrial showing...
      second showings for BBC1 material
      current afffairs/politics {newsnight, daily politics etc}


    i can't see any of these being remotely describeable as "experimental"... can you?[/QUOTE]

    it'd be interesting to know the % of peaktime stuff that is typically made up of :

    mainstream sport, schools/OU programming, natural history programmes and repeats from BBC1, 3 and 4...

    what about original drama like the recent shoot the messenger or soundproof?

    there's plenty of stuff on BBC2 that isn't any of the above.

    Iain
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 2,421
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    pauldenton wrote:
    i'm not denying that it used to make a lot of comedy...

    The following comedy programmes are new ( either an entirely new programme or a new series ) this year on BBC2, so that would be more than the entire ITV network and channel Five added together, more than BBC1 and possibly more than Channel4, yeah BBC2 barely bother with comedy any more. :rolleyes:

    mitchell & webb
    time trumpet
    catherine tate
    qi
    extras
    fear,stress & anger
    hyperdrive
    feel the force
    saxondale
    thin ice
    dead ringers
    Never Mind the Buzzcocks

    The facts are BBC2 outputs a huge amount of comedy both its own and repeats of of other BBC channels, that makes it very different from the tiny fraction of comedy that makes up ch5's schedule whether you consider the comedy experimental or not.
    pauldenton wrote:
    i'm afraid that list just rubs that in..... :(

    Given that list is made up from of programmes from the '60s, '70s, '80s, '90s and this millennium the fact it includes 7 comedies ( out of 23 ) that have been created since 2000 seems pretty reasonable to me.
    pauldenton wrote:
    merely that it no longer does so (as the "groundbreaking" role has been passed to BBC3...)

    What constitutes ground breaking is to an extent subjective, I would suggest QI is something of a move forward from the usual HIGNFY rip off panel shows, that Time Trumpet, The Office, Look Around You, People Like Us etc are all fairly original. The same goes for the winner of this years Bafta Best Comedy award – Help ( Another BBC2 comedy series ;) ), for a channel that “doesn't take comedy seriously” BBC2 do remarkably well in the two comedy categories ( Best Comedy, Best Comedy Performance ), I suggest you take a look at the winners and nominated short lists for the last few years, BBC2 do rather better than Channel5. ;)

    Incidentally where is that list of channel5 comedies?
    pauldenton wrote:
    i do think movies are more important to five than sport...

    So you think channel fives afternoon made for TV movies are more important to it than it's rating winning football shown at prime time, you are even more deluded than you appear to be.
    pauldenton wrote:
    i can't see any of these being remotely describeable as "experimental"... can you?

    As an example I suggest Springwatch / Auturnwatch.

    Either way as far as I can see you seem to be suggesting that BBC2 and Channel5 are similar on the basis they show sport and both have quiz shows ( although how Quizcall / Brainteaser can be described as quiz shows I don't know ). Frankly ITV seems far more similar, it has a regular news service like channel5, big blockbuster / family films, lots of drama, crappy phone in lotteries ( sorry “quiz” shows ), a virtually non-existent comedy department, very few documentaries ( okay Five is better than ITV in this respect, but still a lot closer to them than it is to BBC2 ), the opposite to BBC2.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 1,213
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    Micro$oft wrote:
    The following comedy programmes are new ( either an entirely new programme or a new series ) this year on BBC2, so that would be more than the entire ITV network and channel Five added together, more than BBC1 and possibly more than Channel4, yeah BBC2 barely bother with comedy any more. :rolleyes:

    .
    {snipped list of shows including at least one that's not a BBC2 show...}
    .

    The facts are BBC2 outputs a huge amount of comedy both its own and repeats of of other BBC channels, that makes it very different from the tiny fraction of comedy that makes up ch5's schedule whether you consider the comedy experimental or not.

    err - i have never suggested that comedy is any level of priority for 5..... merely that it is no longer a (major) priority for BBC2...

    and i'd hardly describe the volume of comedy (even counting repeats etc) as "huge" :rolleyes:
    Micro$oft wrote:
    Given that list is made up from of programmes from the '60s, '70s, '80s, '90s and this millennium the fact it includes 7 comedies ( out of 23 ) that have been created since 2000 seems pretty reasonable to me.

    only if you consider them the equal/equivalent of the older shows....
    Micro$oft wrote:
    What constitutes ground breaking is to an extent subjective, I would suggest QI is something of a move forward from the usual HIGNFY rip off panel shows,

    so would I .. it is also a BBC4 show (that is repeated on BBC2) not a BBC2 show..... ;)
    Micro$oft wrote:
    that Time Trumpet, The Office, Look Around You, People Like Us etc are all fairly original.

    err - as people like us dates from 1999, and the office from 2001 don't you mean "were" not "are" in those cases?
    Micro$oft wrote:
    The same goes for the winner of this years Bafta Best Comedy award – Help ( Another BBC2 comedy series ;) ), for a channel that “doesn't take comedy seriously” BBC2 do remarkably well in the two comedy categories ( Best Comedy, Best Comedy Performance ), I suggest you take a look at the winners and nominated short lists for the last few years, BBC2 do rather better than Channel5. ;)

    Incidentally where is that list of channel5 comedies?

    i have never claimed channel 5 prioritised comedy - you're trying to build a strawman.....

    looking at the nominees i can't help feeling that the only way that BBC2 won is by the BBC manipulating the result by not entering The Thick of It (bbc4) in that category (only "performance" which it won...)

    looking at past years:

    2005 both were won by BBC3
    2004 by bbc1 and bbc3
    2003 by bbc1 and bbc2 (Ricky Gervais in the office)
    2002 by itv :eek: and bbc2 (Ricky Gervais in the office)
    2001 both by C4
    2000 by bbc2 (league of gentlemen) and bbc1
    1999 both by C4
    1998 both by BBC2 (i'm alan partridge)
    1997 both by BBC1

    so over the past ten years that's
    6 comedy baftas for bbc2
    5 comedy baftas for bbc1
    4 for c4
    3 for bbc3
    1 for bbc4
    1 for itv

    looking fine for bbc2 then... BUT
    over the past 3 years (i.e the period in which BBC4 and BBC3 are up and running*) it's:
    3 for bbc3
    1 for bbc2
    1 for bbc1
    1 for bbc4

    which supports my point i think that comedy has now been de-prioritised in BBC2...

    *BBC4 started in march 2002 so first eligible for the 2003 baftas, BBC3 in feb 2003 so first eligible for the 2004 baftas...
    Micro$oft wrote:
    So you think channel fives afternoon made for TV movies are more important to it than it's rating winning football shown at prime time, you are even more deluded than you appear to be.

    no i think movies as a whole (including the "blockbusters" they show in prime time) are more important to 5 than sport (including the stuff they show out of prime time, which is by far the majority of the sport they show...)

    you are the one who wanted all "drama" treated the same etc. "films" and "sport" are no different...
    Micro$oft wrote:
    As an example I suggest Springwatch / Auturnwatch.

    hmm - not familiar with that (which i guess will not surprise you...) so don't know whether it was "experimental" or had it's like had been done before (in the UK or elsewhere..)

    but even if one accepts that it is, one "experimental" series is not much of a record.....
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 1,213
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    iain wrote:
    it'd be interesting to know the % of peaktime stuff that is typically made up of :

    mainstream sport, schools/OU programming, natural history programmes and repeats from BBC1, 3 and 4...

    what about original drama like the recent shoot the messenger or soundproof?

    there's plenty of stuff on BBC2 that isn't any of the above.

    Iain

    hmm - i'll be glad to attempt to work it out if you will define "peaktime"..... {never having worked in the industry i don't know what the accepted definition(s) may be...}
  • iainiain Posts: 63,929
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    let's go with 6pm-10:30pm. :)

    i disagree that natural history programmes aren't documentaries tho' - surely they're simply documentaries about natural history subjects?

    or would you say that documentaries about historical subjects aren't documentaries either, but rather history programmes?

    i'd also be interested in any list of original comedy from five, just to compare with BBC2s.

    Iain
  • mb@2daymb@2day Posts: 10,787
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    I actually watch Five more than I watch ITV.

    If Five has a problem, it's that there's no daily identity to their schedules. Every day feels like the same.

    You know how you have a rough idea with Channel 4 as to what you're going to get on each night? Eg: Fluff or a movie on Sundays; Comedy on Fridays; Home-improvement or property investment mid-week... Every night on Five feels the same.
    Justin,

    I think it is Five's problem that they don't have a big night in the week which is must see or even maybe see bunch of shows. Unless they have some good sport as recently when they had a triple bill of soccer matches, they are not competing hard enough for share.

    The two new channels arn't too good in comparison , especially the US one. That channel needs some quality eye catching films to get passing viewers to notice it.

    There isnt much daring in the scheduling as there was before. The arts are good but science , nature and history shows are thin on the channel recently. With the promise of cash from RTL wheres the new shows that can lift it up.

    The longer Five stay out of commiting large amounts of money to drama the better. It's not making any return for them so they are better off investing elsewhere.


    Its not all bad for five, I think it has programmes spread across the week that are worth a look but the competition is always changing and in some cases challenging them harder.

    Fortunately for five it has a good presence in the ever growing freeview market so that one area they can rely on for viewers.
  • scotnodscotnod Posts: 43
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    i was listening to the media guardian podcast and it said they had the chance to get shows like big brother and the bill. the bill would not bring audiences but bb would other tv companies had the chance to get bb say what you want about bb it makes money big media company’s know that now.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 1,213
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    scotnod wrote:
    i was listening to the media guardian podcast and it said they had the chance to get shows like big brother and the bill. the bill would not bring audiences but bb would other tv companies had the chance to get bb say what you want about bb it makes money big media company’s know that now.

    hmm - i'm afraid you're wrong if you think the bill would not bring audiences....over 5.5m audience for all episodes...
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 143
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    pauldenton wrote:
    hmm - i'm afraid you're wrong if you think the bill would not bring audiences....over 5.5m audience for all episodes...
    Some shows have successfully transferred to Five, such as Home and Away, but others have been a failure, for example Robot Wars. If The Bill moved to Five it would probably lose some of its audience, however, how much is another matter.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 1,213
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    Some shows have successfully transferred to Five, such as Home and Away, but others have been a failure, for example Robot Wars. If The Bill moved to Five it would probably lose some of its audience, however, how much is another matter.

    indeed - and i imagine it (as a semi-soap-style series) would be more similar to H&A than RW...

    would certainly loose some audience {if only because of the 20% or so who can't (yet) get C5!}
  • BigOrangeBigOrange Posts: 59,653
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    Wozza20 wrote:
    I think five are in a period of transition at the moment that will see them going into the new year in a stronger position. Five were the only terrestrial without spin-off channels until recently, and have just started producing homegrown drama and comedy which is a step forward also.

    Five have recognised their strengths to date in US imports and lifestyle programmes, and have set up two channels aimed at these particular demographics leaving the way clear to become a truly competitive channel.

    I hate fantasy listings, but with the programmes five have at their disposal, and some decent scheduling, five could become very popular if it were to look something like this:

    Monday
    8pm Documentary
    9pm CSI (New only. Repeats on Five US)
    10pm House (Can't be on US as Hallmark have rights)
    11pm Documentary

    Tuesday
    8pm Extraordinary People (Popular documentary)
    9pm CSI (New only. Repeats on Five US)
    10pm UK drama (Tripping over for example)
    11pm UK Comedy

    Wednesday
    8pm Documentary
    9pm Grey's Anatomy
    10pm UK Drama
    11pm Documentary

    Thursday
    8pm Eufa Cup football or "Movie of the Week"
    10pm Criminal Minds
    11pm The Shield

    Friday
    8pm Documentary
    9pm Law and Order
    10pm Law and Order SVU
    11pm Film

    Saturday
    8pm Documentary
    9pm Prison Break
    10pm Light entertainment (such as top 40 of something)

    Sunday
    8pm Family Film (another of five's strengths)
    10pm UK drama
    11pm UK comedy

    Like I say, I hate these sort of fantasy posts, but above makes a bit of sense to me (and I am not a TV scheduler).
    UK drama's following the biggest hits on five would make more people aware of them.

    Not a bad schedule, but I wouldn't move Prison Break to Saturday nights. It's current slot of 10pm on Mondays is perfect for it, whilst CSI does good ratings for them at the weekend.
  • scotnodscotnod Posts: 43
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    the bill is popular would bring in the viewers but its big audences they want advertising is the key. Media guardian was talking about it on thier podcast. viewers = advertising revenue. They said they had the chance of bb and the bill but did not take it up. the bill and bb would give five a major boost
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 1,213
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    iain wrote:
    let's go with 6pm-10:30pm. :)

    ok here goes...

    this week:

    quiz shows (quality) 1hr (3%)
    quiz shows (trashy) 2h30m (7.7%)
    nat hist docs 6h30 +1hr rpt (23%)
    BBC1 celeb Doc repeat 1hr (3%)
    cheapo US science import 30m (1.5%)
    other docs 4h (12.3%)

    (pop) music 1h35 (4.9%)
    arts mag. prog 1hr (3%)
    motoring mag prog 1hr (3%)

    big budget US drama import 1h30m (4.6%)
    bbc3 drama rpt 50m (2.6%)

    comedy 3h25 (12%) {BBC2 1hr, bbc1 rpt 30m,bbc3 rpt 30m, bbc4 rpt 30m, bbc2 rpt 10m, classic BBC rpt 45m}

    BBC1 "reality" repeat 1hr (3%)
    "reality" spinoff 5x30m = 2h30 (7.7%)

    soccer 1hr 10 (3.6%)

    gardening 1hr (3%)
    food 30m (1.5%)

    total 32.5hrs {due to programmes that o/lap start/end on w/end, which i have counted in full....}

    a "sports" week {22-28/4/06 which i happened to still have listings for in a newspaper suplement i'd hung onto*}

    snooker 14h55 (46.7%)
    soccer 50m (2.6%)
    london marathon 50m (2.6%)

    film 1h30 (4.7%)

    nat hist doc 50m (2.6%)
    other docs 3h (9.4%)

    quiz shows (quality) 30m (1.6%)
    quiz shows (trashy) 2h30 (7.8%)

    comedy 2h30 (7.8%) {BBC2 1hr, BBC3 prts 1hr, BBC1 rpt 30m}

    reality show 1h30 (4.7%)

    food 2h30 (7.8%)
    BBC3 parenting rpt 30m (1.6%)

    total 31h55 {o/lap + not counting a 5min PEB (BBC2 having no discretion about showing this of course..)}

    * this was the middle week in the snooker world championships... fairly typical of BBC2 in the weeks of snooker/darts & part weeks of golf - wimbledon fortnight would be even more sport... so we can take it as typical of the approx 1 week in 5 when they are sports dominated, as discussed earlier in the thread...

    on that basis i reckon the overall peak time average {1 "sports" week and 4 "normal"} would be:
    natural history 19%
    other docs 15.4% {34.4% total docs if you prefer}
    sport 13.6%
    comedy 11.2%
    quiz shows 10.5% {26% quality 74% pap}
    reality TV 9.6%
    "lifestyle"* 8% {for want of a better term to encompass food/gardening/parenting/motoring}
    films/drama 6.7%
    arts/music 6.4%

    {the alert may spot that rounding has taken the total to 100.4%.... but i can't see more than 1dp as justified!}
    iain wrote:
    i disagree that natural history programmes aren't documentaries tho' - surely they're simply documentaries about natural history subjects?

    or would you say that documentaries about historical subjects aren't documentaries either, but rather history programmes?

    well i guess it depends how detailed one wants any analysis to be..... {from the point of view of judging the BBC it seems relevant to me if the majority of a channels output is in a small subset of a genre - especially when that genre makes up so much of it's output.....}
    iain wrote:
    i'd also be interested in any list of original comedy from five, just to compare with BBC2s.

    Iain

    well i have no idea (depends whether one is willing to include a US import new to the UK...) - i can't remeber any original UK comedy from five that wasn't "adult" themed...

    fwiw in the april week their commedy offerings were:
    2 episodes of "everyone hates chris" {UPN} (sunday eve)
    5 rpts of "2 and a half men" {CBS emmy award winner}(mon, tues, weds, thurs, fri eve)
    plus 2 adult comedies of their own:
    "suburban shootout" on thurs at 11pm plus a repeat of "swinging"@11.30

    ie 4.5 hrs total comedy:
    1hr of their own originals
    2.5hrs of a US import repeat
    1hr of a US import first run
  • iainiain Posts: 63,929
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    pauldenton wrote:
    ok here goes...

    this week:

    quiz shows (quality) 1hr (3%)
    quiz shows (trashy) 2h30m (7.7%)

    how are we defining 'quality' and 'trashy' here?

    is 'never mind the buzzcocks' trashy? if it is, is it still entertaining?
    nat hist docs 6h30 +1hr rpt (23%)

    what are they? nat history seems a broad definition.
    BBC1 celeb Doc repeat 1hr (3%)
    cheapo US science import 30m (1.5%)
    other docs 4h (12.3%)

    (pop) music 1h35 (4.9%)
    arts mag. prog 1hr (3%)
    motoring mag prog 1hr (3%)

    big budget US drama import 1h30m (4.6%)
    bbc3 drama rpt 50m (2.6%)

    comedy 3h25 (12%) {BBC2 1hr, bbc1 rpt 30m,bbc3 rpt 30m, bbc4 rpt 30m, bbc2 rpt 10m, classic BBC rpt 45m}

    BBC1 "reality" repeat 1hr (3%)
    "reality" spinoff 5x30m = 2h30 (7.7%)

    soccer 1hr 10 (3.6%)

    gardening 1hr (3%)
    food 30m (1.5%)

    total 32.5hrs {due to programmes that o/lap start/end on w/end, which i have counted in full....}

    so overall a pretty good mix then?

    a "sports" week {22-28/4/06 which i happened to still have listings for in a newspaper suplement i'd hung onto*}

    snooker 14h55 (46.7%)
    soccer 50m (2.6%)
    london marathon 50m (2.6%)

    film 1h30 (4.7%)

    nat hist doc 50m (2.6%)
    other docs 3h (9.4%)

    quiz shows (quality) 30m (1.6%)
    quiz shows (trashy) 2h30 (7.8%)

    comedy 2h30 (7.8%) {BBC2 1hr, BBC3 prts 1hr, BBC1 rpt 30m}

    reality show 1h30 (4.7%)

    food 2h30 (7.8%)
    BBC3 parenting rpt 30m (1.6%)

    total 31h55 {o/lap + not counting a 5min PEB (BBC2 having no discretion about showing this of course..)}

    * this was the middle week in the snooker world championships... fairly typical of BBC2 in the weeks of snooker/darts & part weeks of golf - wimbledon fortnight would be even more sport... so we can take it as typical of the approx 1 week in 5 when they are sports dominated, as discussed earlier in the thread...

    on that basis i reckon the overall peak time average {1 "sports" week and 4 "normal"} would be:
    natural history 19%
    other docs 15.4% {34.4% total docs if you prefer}
    sport 13.6%
    comedy 11.2%
    quiz shows 10.5% {26% quality 74% pap}
    reality TV 9.6%
    "lifestyle"* 8% {for want of a better term to encompass food/gardening/parenting/motoring}
    films/drama 6.7%
    arts/music 6.4%

    {the alert may spot that rounding has taken the total to 100.4%.... but i can't see more than 1dp as justified!}[/QUOTE]

    i think you're being a bit generous there with the one in five - plus sport like snooker is tends to be live in the evenings far more than the tennis or golf does, so will have more peaktime coverage.

    and where are all the BBC3 and 4 repeats? less than 2 hours a week in both cases.

    the education / open university stuff?

    it seems pretty apparent there's plenty on BBC2 besides your original breakdown, and that BBC2s output is quite different to five's.
    well i guess it depends how detailed one wants any analysis to be..... {from the point of view of judging the BBC it seems relevant to me if the majority of a channels output is in a small subset of a genre - especially when that genre makes up so much of it's output.....}

    how about we just stick to the dictionary definition of documentary?

    as for small subset - what were this week's nat history programmes - how alike were they in content?
    well i have no idea (depends whether one is willing to include a US import new to the UK...) - i can't remeber any original UK comedy from five that wasn't "adult" themed...

    no idea of original comedy on five?
    fwiw in the april week their commedy offerings were:
    2 episodes of "everyone hates chris" {UPN} (sunday eve)
    5 rpts of "2 and a half men" {CBS emmy award winner}(mon, tues, weds, thurs, fri eve)
    plus 2 adult comedies of their own:
    "suburban shootout" on thurs at 11pm plus a repeat of "swinging"@11.30

    ie 4.5 hrs total comedy:
    1hr of their own originals
    2.5hrs of a US import repeat
    1hr of a US import first run

    although that 1hr of their own originals is pretty much it for the year, whereas the comedy output over a year on BBC2 (without even including stuff shown on BBC3 first) is far greater.

    Iain
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 1,213
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    iain wrote:
    how are we defining 'quality' and 'trashy' here?

    is 'never mind the buzzcocks' trashy? if it is, is it still entertaining?

    err - neither as it's a comedy show not a quiz :rolleyes:

    "quality" = university challenge & mastermind {i.e. the high-end quizes that BBC2 always used to do...}

    "trashy" = sudo-Q (this week) and eggheads
    (sports week) ie. the kind of pap that other channels do in the quiz line... but (ITV excepted) would be ashamed to show in "prime time" :rolleyes:
    iain wrote:
    what are they? nat history seems a broad definition.

    sat: coast (rpt) {so it should be 5h30+2h repeats}
    sun: wild dive channel islands, natural world {this may be a repeat of last weeks in which case it should be "4h40 +2h50 repeats".....}
    mon: planet earth
    tues: bill oddies how to watch wildlife,
    weds: natural world, deer in the city (+ coast repeat)
    thurs: coast
    fri: trees that made britain +johhny kingdom a year on exmoor

    i don't claim any special knowledge of any of these progs (as i haven't watched them) so it's not impossible that some may not meet your definition of "natural history" {though most are clearly that i think...}
    iain wrote:
    so overall a pretty good mix then?

    but wildly different from the BBC2 we knew and loved...

    some of these progs would discrace ITV let alone BBC2 :mad:
    iain wrote:
    i think you're being a bit generous there with the one in five - plus sport like snooker is tends to be live in the evenings far more than the tennis or golf does, so will have more peaktime coverage.

    as i stated earlier (#44) the 1 in five is based on:

    snooker (4 tournaments - 6 and a half weeks worth!)
    darts (1 week)
    golf (7 days)
    wimbledon(2 weeks)
    so 10 weeks 3 days in total out of 365days or 1 in 5...

    golf (the 2 "majors" that the BBC has exclusive rights to) has about 2hrs/day in prime time (british open - 3 days only as the final day ends on BBC1) or between 1.5 and 4.5 hrs/day for 4 days (US masters - live from Augusta, Georgia therefore all in prime time - 14 hours in total over 4 days)

    contrary to your assertion, tennis has more in prime time on BBC2 not less: typically live from (just before) 6 till 8pm then 1 hour of highlights - so a solid 21 hours/week! {even more if they run late when making up time... non-play is covered by old tennis...}

    all in all i suspect that i'm underestimating the amount of prime time sport on BBC2 {esp. once you include the couple of atheletic events that they show which end at abut 8pm.... and the 4-yearly events that also give rise to a bunch of BBC2 coverage {olympics, winter olympics, commonwealth games...}
    iain wrote:
    and where are all the BBC3 and 4 repeats? less than 2 hours a week in both cases.

    the education / open university stuff?

    err - outside of your definition of "prime time" :rolleyes:
    iain wrote:
    it seems pretty apparent there's plenty on BBC2 besides your original breakdown, and that BBC2s output is quite different to five's.

    "my original breakdown"???....

    i'm looking at (both of) their outputs as a whole, not just in the just under 19% of the time that you class as "prime"......
    iain wrote:
    how about we just stick to the dictionary definition of documentary?

    hmm -

    documentary noun (documentaries) a film or television or radio programme presenting real people in real situations. adj 1 connected with, or consisting of, documents • documentary evidence. 2 of the nature of a documentary; undramatized. documentarily adverb.
    ETYMOLOGY: 19c as adj (sense 1).

    http://www.chambersharrap.co.uk/chambers/features/chref/chref.py/main?query=documentary&title=21st

    brilliant - on that basis we can class "stricly come dancing" & it's spinoffs as a "documentary" :eek: :rolleyes: :(
    iain wrote:
    as for small subset - what were this week's nat history programmes - how alike were they in content?

    see above...
    iain wrote:
    although that 1hr of their own originals is pretty much it for the year, whereas the comedy output over a year on BBC2 (without even including stuff shown on BBC3 first) is far greater.

    Iain

    err - not sure that's the case..... it all rather depends whether you regard a repeat of "original" comedy from:
    BBC1
    BBC4
    BBC3
    or from the BBCs archives

    as more (or less) "original" than a first run of a US import new to the UK......

    one could argue that their purchase of "Joey" etc. represents more "new" comedy to the UK than rehashing other channels outputs, showing their own output multipile times, raiding the archives etc... {that is of course a completely seperate arguement from a "quality" one - on which basis an endless repeat of "yes minister" and the like would knock virtually all "original" comedy into a cocked hat...}

    all this discussion of BBC2 is slightly offthread, but i think it's very clear that Micro$ofts statement that:

    "BBC2's (main concerns content wise) are documentaries, current affairs and comedy"

    is not accurate, even if one limits oneself to "prime time" (thereby excluding "sunday grandstand", but also "newsnight"..) - rather it would be documentaries sport and comedy (just - but little of their own) i guess..... {not the BBC2 of old :cry: } - how long before "reality" TV takes over from comedy? :rolleyes:

    maybe i'll do the same exercise for 5 and compare.....
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 1,213
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    pauldenton wrote:
    maybe i'll do the same exercise for 5 and compare.....

    ok for this week {very serious "overruns" as 5 don't break at 10.30 unlike BBC2 (sometimes i had to go as late as midnight to avoid breaking a programme!}

    news 115m (5.1%)
    quiz shows (trashy) 150m (6.7%)
    soap 150m (6.7%)
    "reality" TV 270m (12%)
    films 485m (21.7%)
    us crime drama 405m (18.1%)
    nat hist doc 45m (2%)
    art doc 45m (2%)
    other docs 120m (5.4%)
    gadget show 45m (2%)
    motoring 60m (2.7%)
    motoring mag show 60m (2.7%)
    original drama 185m (8.3%)
    comedy 0.00%
    soccer 0.00%
    property 105m (4.7%)
    gardening 0.00%
    food 0.00%
    total mins 2240 {350m of overruns: films 160m, us crime drama 115m, original drama 65m, news 10m}

    adjusted for the overruns it would have been:

    news 105m (5.6%)
    quiz shows (trashy) 150m (7.9%)
    soap 150m (7.9%)
    "reality" TV 270m (14.3%)
    films 325m (17.2%)
    us crime drama 290m (15.34%)
    nat hist doc 45m (2.4%)
    art doc 45m (2.4%)
    other docs 120m (6.4%) {total docs 11.1%}
    gadget show 45m (2.4%)
    motoring 60m (3.2%)
    motoring mag show 60m (3.2%)
    original drama 120m (6.4%) {total all drama 29.6%}
    comedy 0.00%
    soccer 0.00%
    property 105m (5.6%) {total "lifestyle" 14.3%}
    gardening 0.00%
    food 0.00%
    total mins 1890

    clearly this will be way off the average so i'll dig into my pile of old listings supplements to find some weeks where they showed football (and/or other sport) for analysis also.....

    i'm assuming that "in the grid" falls into the "trashy" guiz category (i've never seen it, but it does have les dennis presenting.....)
  • iainiain Posts: 63,929
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    so compared to BBC2 lots more film and US drama, and a lot less documentary / nat history and comedy?

    Iain
  • iainiain Posts: 63,929
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    ✭✭
    pauldenton wrote:
    err - neither as it's a comedy show not a quiz :rolleyes:

    ok - no need to roll your eyes - there was me just associating the asking of questions to two teams as being a bit quiz like.

    so is question of sport :

    a. a quiz show?
    b. a comedy?
    c. a sports programme?
    "quality" = university challenge & mastermind {i.e. the high-end quizes that BBC2 always used to do...}

    "trashy" = sudo-Q (this week) and eggheads
    (sports week) ie. the kind of pap that other channels do in the quiz line... but (ITV excepted) would be ashamed to show in "prime time" :rolleyes:

    this sort of nonsense has been an early evening fixture for as long as i can remember.
    sat: coast (rpt) {so it should be 5h30+2h repeats}
    sun: wild dive channel islands, natural world {this may be a repeat of last weeks in which case it should be "4h40 +2h50 repeats".....}
    mon: planet earth
    tues: bill oddies how to watch wildlife,
    weds: natural world, deer in the city (+ coast repeat)
    thurs: coast
    fri: trees that made britain +johhny kingdom a year on exmoor

    i don't claim any special knowledge of any of these progs (as i haven't watched them) so it's not impossible that some may not meet your definition of "natural history" {though most are clearly that i think...}

    then 'natural history' clearly covers an enormous range of subject matter.
    but wildly different from the BBC2 we knew and loved...

    is it? i don't know if it's that different, or any perceived difference isn't at least partly due to seeing things through nostaligic rose tinted glasses.
    some of these progs would discrace ITV let alone BBC2 :mad:

    Eamon Holmes aside, would they?
    as i stated earlier (#44) the 1 in five is based on:

    snooker (4 tournaments - 6 and a half weeks worth!)
    darts (1 week)
    golf (7 days)
    wimbledon(2 weeks)
    so 10 weeks 3 days in total out of 365days or 1 in 5...

    golf (the 2 "majors" that the BBC has exclusive rights to) has about 2hrs/day in prime time (british open - 3 days only as the final day ends on BBC1) or between 1.5 and 4.5 hrs/day for 4 days (US masters - live from Augusta, Georgia therefore all in prime time - 14 hours in total over 4 days)

    contrary to your assertion, tennis has more in prime time on BBC2 not less: typically live from (just before) 6 till 8pm then 1 hour of highlights - so a solid 21 hours/week! {even more if they run late when making up time... non-play is covered by old tennis...}

    all in all i suspect that i'm underestimating the amount of prime time sport on BBC2 {esp. once you include the couple of atheletic events that they show which end at abut 8pm.... and the 4-yearly events that also give rise to a bunch of BBC2 coverage {olympics, winter olympics, commonwealth games...}

    don't the wimbledon highlights go out on BBC1? and wimbledon is pretty much the heaviest fortnight of sport, so that's a 14 hour maximum.

    if nothing else, this disproves the old there's never any sport on the BBC anymore thing.
    err - outside of your definition of "prime time" :rolleyes:

    "my original breakdown"???....

    i'm looking at (both of) their outputs as a whole, not just in the just under 19% of the time that you class as "prime"......

    i thought we were talking about the channels main focus? i wouldn't count educational programming purposely broadcast in the middle of the night designed to be recorded as being part of BBC2's main focus - at least not in the context of the discussion here.
    hmm -

    documentary noun (documentaries) a film or television or radio programme presenting real people in real situations. adj 1 connected with, or consisting of, documents • documentary evidence. 2 of the nature of a documentary; undramatized. documentarily adverb.
    ETYMOLOGY: 19c as adj (sense 1).

    http://www.chambersharrap.co.uk/chambers/features/chref/chref.py/main?query=documentary&title=21st

    brilliant - on that basis we can class "stricly come dancing" & it's spinoffs as a "documentary" :eek: :rolleyes: :(

    see above...

    depends how obtuse you want to be. how about :

    "a film or television programmes presenting the facts about a particular subject"?

    most reasonable people would describe a programme about african elephants as a documentary about african elephants.

    but they almost certainly wouldn't describe strictly come dancing as a documentary about dancing.
    err - not sure that's the case..... it all rather depends whether you regard a repeat of "original" comedy from:
    BBC1
    BBC4
    BBC3
    or from the BBCs archives

    as more (or less) "original" than a first run of a US import new to the UK......

    one could argue that their purchase of "Joey" etc. represents more "new" comedy to the UK than rehashing other channels outputs, showing their own output multipile times, raiding the archives etc... {that is of course a completely seperate arguement from a "quality" one - on which basis an endless repeat of "yes minister" and the like would knock virtually all "original" comedy into a cocked hat...}

    i think it's fair to say that the comedy on BBC2 that comprises of :

    BBC2 comedy and BBC3 and 4 comedy that airs on BBC2 shortly after airing on BBC3 or 4 still represents *new original comedy from the BBC*. the BBC3 and 4 stuff is still *new* to non digital viewers.

    as such BBC2 has far more focus on comedy than five does, with, in the course of a typical year, a fraction of what BBC2 does.
    all this discussion of BBC2 is slightly offthread, but i think it's very clear that Micro$ofts statement that:

    "BBC2's (main concerns content wise) are documentaries, current affairs and comedy"

    is not accurate, even if one limits oneself to "prime time" (thereby excluding "sunday grandstand", but also "newsnight"..) - rather it would be documentaries sport and comedy (just - but little of their own) i guess..... {not the BBC2 of old :cry: } - how long before "reality" TV takes over from comedy? :rolleyes:

    maybe i'll do the same exercise for 5 and compare.....

    as i said above, it seems pretty clear that five has more focus on film and US drama than BBC2, and BBC2 has more focus on documentary and comedy than five does.

    Iain
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