He was naive and unprofessional, and I'm not defending him in anyway. All I'm saying is a few 'dodgy' comments doesn't mean that someone IS a racist. it's not an excuse, but none of us know what sort of person he was working under. Have you never made a few throwaway comments and later regretted them?
He was naive and unprofessional, and I'm not defending him in anyway. All I'm saying is a few 'dodgy' comments doesn't mean that someone IS a racist. it's not an excuse, but none of us know what sort of person he was working under. Have you never made a few throwaway comments and later regretted them?
Ive often said things I've regretted, I'm far from preaching here but i honestly can't see a scenario when i would text the kind of stuff that McKay is supposed to have. To text is a lot less impulsive too. It doesn't appear like it was a one off or anything either.
I don't believe in having a go at people unless they deserve it but when the story broke and the nature of the texts was revealed i really thought it was, and should be, curtains for McKay or at the very least the start of a long road back. What has amazed me is the number of people saying "he made a mistake" or "it was a private text" and stuff like that if not to excuse it but to make light of it. He was busted using racist terms to describe people he interacted in the course of his working day that he had to continually deal with. There was really no excuse (not that I'm saying you are making excuses for him) and he should just have held his hands up.
I see what you're saying, and I can see your point. I just don't think a few (albeit very poor taste) texts can prove that someone is a racist.
Im not sure what he would have to do if that isn't good enough but even if we say "its only a few texts" even if we don't give him the badge of "racist", i think it was serious enough to screw his career and i wonder if it helps to illustrate other problems in football that it had a relative lack of impact on his career and also the way it was received in many quarters.
I also think in light of the texts the onus switches to him to prove he isn't a racist rather than on us to prove he is.
People send inappropriate texts to their mates all the time. He won't be the first and he won't be the last. I'd bet my last pound that these texts are common place amongst many, many people.
Have you never sent or laughed at a sexist / racist joke?
It doesn't mean they they believe their comments to be true. It's not that hard to understand surely?
No, he's a racist. If you refer to people of different ethnicity with racist terms then you are a racist. Full stop.
People send inappropriate texts to their mates all the time. He won't be the first and he won't be the last. I'd bet my last pound that these texts are common place amongst many, many people.
I have no doubt racists like to share there disgusting thoughts among each other.
I don't have a problem with Moyes now he has left Utd although there were quite a few rumours that he wasn't that popular with folk within the club and I'm not referring to the players either.
What I do have a problem is some of the sniping about how he wasn't given enough time. It wasn't nice seeing him get sacked but when it happened there was a relief that it was the right thing to do.
He was completely out of his depth and the Utd job isn't something you can just grow into similarly as with other big clubs. Christ knows what they were thinking but it seems to me that there is some blame shifting with no one taking responsibility for such a monumental cock up.
I think a lot of it is because for many years, Man UTD fans kept the whole "we dont sack our managers" and looking down their nose at teams that do. Not to mention he was never meant to be a short term plan, at least not publicly. (personally I am surprised he lasted as long as he did, results aside, it was boring to watch them play)
We are talking about racism not sexism so i'll ignore your first example.
As for the second, referring to someone as 'black' isn't racist in itself so no.
Why ignore it? It's still a form of discrimination isn't it?
I don't know Malky Mackay so I can't say if he is or isn't racist. What I do know is that a few texts messages don't prove 100% that someone IS racist.
Why ignore it? It's still a form of discrimination isn't it?
I don't know Malky Mackay so I can't say if he is or isn't racist. What I do know is that a few texts messages don't prove 100% that someone IS racist.
Fkn chinkys. Fk it. There's enough dogs in Cardiff for us all to go around.'
On the arrival of South Korean international Kim Bo-Kyung
'Go on, fat Phil. Nothing like a Jew that sees money slipping through his fingers'
On football agent Phil Smith
'Not many white faces amongst that lot but worth considering.'
On a list of potential signings
A picture entitled Black Monopoly (where every square was a "Go to Jail" square)
Sent to members of Cardiff's staff
I struggle to see how in these examples you wouldn't consider the person sending the texts to be anything other than racist. Its isn't telling a joke, an ill judged retweet, something lost in translation or a heat of the moment error. Last one falls into hat category perhaps but not really in the context of the sentiments of the others.
Fkn chinkys. Fk it. There's enough dogs in Cardiff for us all to go around.'
On the arrival of South Korean international Kim Bo-Kyung
'Go on, fat Phil. Nothing like a Jew that sees money slipping through his fingers'
On football agent Phil Smith
'Not many white faces amongst that lot but worth considering.'
On a list of potential signings
A picture entitled Black Monopoly (where every square was a "Go to Jail" square)
Sent to members of Cardiff's staff
I struggle to see how in these examples you wouldn't consider the person sending the texts to be anything other than racist. Its isn't telling a joke, an ill judged retweet, something lost in translation or a heat of the moment error. Last one falls into hat category perhaps but not really in the context of the sentiments of the others.
These texts have no bearing on his management ability
Why ignore it? It's still a form of discrimination isn't it?
I don't know Malky Mackay so I can't say if he is or isn't racist. What I do know is that a few texts messages don't prove 100% that someone IS racist.
I am ignoring it because we are talking about racism, not sexism.
Those text messages aren't 'banter', they are seriously racist messages.
Why ignore it? It's still a form of discrimination isn't it?
I don't know Malky Mackay so I can't say if he is or isn't racist. What I do know is that a few texts messages don't prove 100% that someone IS racist.
It is not racist or discriminatory to simply describe a black person as black. It is discriptive, just as the referring to the red haired guy. Gee, black folk refer to themselves as black.
It really is point missing in the extreme and maybe deliberately trying to obscure the real issues to compare simply calling someone 'black' to the stuff Mackay was coming out with.
If there were a group of ten blokes of which one was black. called John say. Someone was looking for John and asked you which one was John, then you have an obvious way to point out who it is - ' he's the black one'. If you would look desperately for some other distinguishing feature like his shirt colour to avoid saying ' the black one' that would be pretty silly.
Nothing wrong at all in general in describing someone as black, but how you refer to them and in what context does matter. Therein are the issues wuth Mackay, not just references to 'black'. That is clearly not the issue.
There are real racist issues to be concerned about.
It is not racist or discriminatory to simply describe a black person as black. It is discriptive, just as the referring to the red haired guy. Gee, black folk refer to themselves as black.
It really is point missing in the extreme and maybe deliberately trying to obscure the real issues to compare simply calling someone 'black' to the stuff Mackay was coming out with.
If there were a group of ten blokes of which one was black. called John say. Someone was looking for John and asked you which one was John, then you have an obvious way to point out who it is - ' he's the black one'. If you would look desperately for some other distinguishing feature like his shirt colour to avoid saying ' the black one' that would be pretty silly.
Nothing wrong at all in general in describing someone as black, but how you refer to them and in what context does matter. Therein are the issues wuth Mackay, not just references to 'black'. That is clearly not the issue.
There are real racist issues to be concerned about.
As an aside. I am white, married to a black woman. On holiday, a couple of years ago we were on holiday (in Poole, not that it matters) with my in-laws. In the resort restaurant, I went to the bar to order some extras. The woman behind the bar asked which table we were at. I replied "the table with the black family" and pointed in their direction. She was shocked. "You can't say that!". She assumed that as I'd said " black", then I must be being racist. I'd said it because it was an effective way of identifying them amongst table after table of white people.
As an aside. I am white, married to a black woman. On holiday, a couple of years ago we were on holiday (in Poole, not that it matters) with my in-laws. In the resort restaurant, I went to the bar to order some extras. The woman behind the bar asked which table we were at. I replied "the table with the black family" and pointed in their direction. She was shocked. "You can't say that!". She assumed that as I'd said " black", then I must be being racist. I'd said it because it was an effective way of identifying them amongst table after table of white people.
She was being daft then, by definition you were with that table no matter how you described them, up to a point of course.
If you had said "Im with the n*****s over there" then there would have been a story!!!
Comments
Ive often said things I've regretted, I'm far from preaching here but i honestly can't see a scenario when i would text the kind of stuff that McKay is supposed to have. To text is a lot less impulsive too. It doesn't appear like it was a one off or anything either.
I don't believe in having a go at people unless they deserve it but when the story broke and the nature of the texts was revealed i really thought it was, and should be, curtains for McKay or at the very least the start of a long road back. What has amazed me is the number of people saying "he made a mistake" or "it was a private text" and stuff like that if not to excuse it but to make light of it. He was busted using racist terms to describe people he interacted in the course of his working day that he had to continually deal with. There was really no excuse (not that I'm saying you are making excuses for him) and he should just have held his hands up.
Im not sure what he would have to do if that isn't good enough but even if we say "its only a few texts" even if we don't give him the badge of "racist", i think it was serious enough to screw his career and i wonder if it helps to illustrate other problems in football that it had a relative lack of impact on his career and also the way it was received in many quarters.
I also think in light of the texts the onus switches to him to prove he isn't a racist rather than on us to prove he is.
No, he's a racist. If you refer to people of different ethnicity with racist terms then you are a racist. Full stop.
If a person gets referred to as "the blonde girl on the 4th floor", is that sexist?
If a person gets referred to as the "black bloke from the 3rd floor", is that racist?
Not commenting on Mackay specifically ( and he does appear to have gone rather OTT ), but that is far too simplistic. Full stop.
I have no doubt racists like to share there disgusting thoughts among each other.
I think a lot of it is because for many years, Man UTD fans kept the whole "we dont sack our managers" and looking down their nose at teams that do. Not to mention he was never meant to be a short term plan, at least not publicly. (personally I am surprised he lasted as long as he did, results aside, it was boring to watch them play)
We are talking about racism not sexism so i'll ignore your first example.
As for the second, referring to someone as 'black' isn't racist in itself so no.
Yes, you're right.
But referring specifically to Mackay, I don't know how anyone could read his alleged comments and say it doesn't mean he's racist.
If I refer to a red car, am I being colourist and excluding other vehicles?
JUST BLOWING SOME MINDS HERE GANG
Why ignore it? It's still a form of discrimination isn't it?
I don't know Malky Mackay so I can't say if he is or isn't racist. What I do know is that a few texts messages don't prove 100% that someone IS racist.
Fkn chinkys. Fk it. There's enough dogs in Cardiff for us all to go around.'
On the arrival of South Korean international Kim Bo-Kyung
'Go on, fat Phil. Nothing like a Jew that sees money slipping through his fingers'
On football agent Phil Smith
'Not many white faces amongst that lot but worth considering.'
On a list of potential signings
A picture entitled Black Monopoly (where every square was a "Go to Jail" square)
Sent to members of Cardiff's staff
I struggle to see how in these examples you wouldn't consider the person sending the texts to be anything other than racist. Its isn't telling a joke, an ill judged retweet, something lost in translation or a heat of the moment error. Last one falls into hat category perhaps but not really in the context of the sentiments of the others.
These texts have no bearing on his management ability
I wasn't using it in the context of his managerial ability. They have a bearing on whether he is racist or not which is the post i was replying to.
I am ignoring it because we are talking about racism, not sexism.
Those text messages aren't 'banter', they are seriously racist messages.
It is not racist or discriminatory to simply describe a black person as black. It is discriptive, just as the referring to the red haired guy. Gee, black folk refer to themselves as black.
It really is point missing in the extreme and maybe deliberately trying to obscure the real issues to compare simply calling someone 'black' to the stuff Mackay was coming out with.
If there were a group of ten blokes of which one was black. called John say. Someone was looking for John and asked you which one was John, then you have an obvious way to point out who it is - ' he's the black one'. If you would look desperately for some other distinguishing feature like his shirt colour to avoid saying ' the black one' that would be pretty silly.
Nothing wrong at all in general in describing someone as black, but how you refer to them and in what context does matter. Therein are the issues wuth Mackay, not just references to 'black'. That is clearly not the issue.
There are real racist issues to be concerned about.
As an aside. I am white, married to a black woman. On holiday, a couple of years ago we were on holiday (in Poole, not that it matters) with my in-laws. In the resort restaurant, I went to the bar to order some extras. The woman behind the bar asked which table we were at. I replied "the table with the black family" and pointed in their direction. She was shocked. "You can't say that!". She assumed that as I'd said " black", then I must be being racist. I'd said it because it was an effective way of identifying them amongst table after table of white people.
She was being daft then, by definition you were with that table no matter how you described them, up to a point of course.
If you had said "Im with the n*****s over there" then there would have been a story!!!
I never used the word 'banter' as I don't believe they were sent in that context.
I'm using sexism because some of his text messages were described as such.