John Hurt's Doctor can NOT be from the Time-war

124

Comments

  • Virgil TracyVirgil Tracy Posts: 26,805
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    I do tend to lean very strongly to this.
    The very fact that Moffat really wanted Christopher Ecclestone to be on board and had several meetings with him, speaks volumes.

    Of course it could be possible that when finding out that he couldn't get him, the introduction of John Hurt could mean a completely different story as opposed to an amended story.

    I would imagine that they have contingency plans should they not be able to get the actors they want.

    I dunno that storyline would've been quite a significant role whereas Eccleston said the role didn't amount to much which is why he turned it down.
  • lordo350lordo350 Posts: 3,633
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    ea91 wrote: »
    When exactly did he bring up the time war?
    There could still be secrets pertaining to the time war, like who started it in the first place, Hurt's Doctor perhaps?

    It's been mentioned at least three times in series 7 by name. The first when the Doctor was facing that Sun parasite thing, the second when Clara found that book, and the third by the Great Intelligence. Like I said, though it was hinted at in series 5 and 6, it was never actually mentioned by name.

    As for Hurt's Doctor actually starting the Time War... hmm, interesting. I do think, though, that Hurt's Doctor did something terrible because he had no other choice; an act of finality. Starting a war wouldn't be the end of anything, but a beginning. Plus. RTD hinted ages back that the origins of the Time War dated back to when the Fourth Doctor first encountered Davros. Different writers, I know, but that makes sense, as the Time Lords had send the Doctor back to destroy Davros.

    As for Hurt being the 9th purely because they couldn't get Christopher Eccleston... sorry don't agree there. If they wanted to show the Time War, why couldn't they have just gotten Paul McGann? It is very strongly implied that the 8th fought in the War, not the 9th; in Rose, it looked like the 9th had very recently regenerated. Obviously, this doesn't mean that Hurt's Doctor didn't fight in the war; maybe the war began after the time of the 8th, in Hurt's incarnation, but to say that CE refusing to appear caused them to have to change their plans a lot really seems a tad far fetched. Plus, if it is true that CE chose not to appear because he wouldn't have played a very big role, then that further casts doubt on it. I'm sure that showing the turmoil of the Time War would have seemed quite appealing to CE's dark portrayal of the Doctor. Maybe, in a script with 11, 10 and Hurt, CE didn't think his Doctor was really needed.

    There is another reason why I doubt Hurt is the 9th as well. Remember in "The Next Doctor," when the Daleks had data on every Doctor, from 1 through to 10. If Hurt truly was the incarnation that fought them in the Time War and actually came the closest to wiping them out for good, surely they would have had loads of information on him? Doesn't really make sense that they would have nothing on that incarnation, unless the Doctor removed all their information on him. But then, why would he do that if he thought they were all going to die anyway? He's pretty much committed genocide when it comes to the Daleks before, and has never tried to hide that he did that. Again, that's the main reason; the Doctor did terrible things in the Time War, and has never tried to hide it. They keep it ambiguous, but you can tell there is a much bigger story underneath it all that he probably told Amy, and certainly River.

    So yeah. Still certain he's not Doc 9. But I love how we can speculate about this. It will defo help in bridging the gap.
  • AlbacomAlbacom Posts: 34,578
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    bugloss wrote: »
    Peter Davidson just said that the 50th special would (as far as he knew) "fill a gap in the Doctor's recent history"

    I think it is that Hurt is the person to have committed genocide in the Time war. It is something largely The Doctor disapproves of (genocide) so to commit genocide is not something done "in the name of the doctor". But why is the Hurts Doctor stuck in the tomb? Why hasn't he regenerated?
  • DavetheScotDavetheScot Posts: 16,623
    Forum Member
    ✭✭
    lordo350 wrote: »

    There is another reason why I doubt Hurt is the 9th as well. Remember in "The Next Doctor," when the Daleks had data on every Doctor, from 1 through to 10. If Hurt truly was the incarnation that fought them in the Time War and actually came the closest to wiping them out for good, surely they would have had loads of information on him? Doesn't really make sense that they would have nothing on that incarnation, unless the Doctor removed all their information on him. But then, why would he do that if he thought they were all going to die anyway? He's pretty much committed genocide when it comes to the Daleks before, and has never tried to hide that he did that. Again, that's the main reason; the Doctor did terrible things in the Time War, and has never tried to hide it. They keep it ambiguous, but you can tell there is a much bigger story underneath it all that he probably told Amy, and certainly River.

    It was the Cybermen, not the Daleks, who were in The Next Doctor.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 1
    Forum Member
    I wonder if River has met Hurt before? She did tell 10 she had never seen him that young before.

    I didn't take the time to read all the replies, so not sure if someone already covered this.
  • solarpenguinsolarpenguin Posts: 488
    Forum Member
    It was the Cybermen, not the Daleks, who were in The Next Doctor.

    But they stole their information on the Doctor from the Daleks.
  • James FrederickJames Frederick Posts: 53,184
    Forum Member
    I wonder if River has met Hurt before? She did tell 10 she had never seen him that young before.

    I didn't take the time to read all the replies, so not sure if someone already covered this.

    I think she meant in his eyes as for her the first Doctor she met was 11 who is physically younger looking.

    But If anyone will know about The "Hurt" Doctor it will be River
  • Mr1CroftMr1Croft Posts: 18
    Forum Member
    I watched back CE's first episode as the Doctor (Rose) and firstly when he looks into the mirror in her house he makes a remark saying "Could be worse" when he sees his reflection and then complains about his ears. This gives us the impression that he has recently regenerated.

    However later we see that guy (can't remember his name) who Rose meets (in his shed) who has information on the doctor and sightings on CE's doctor, is this CE in the future or are we supposed to believe that CE presumably regenerated in the Time War, went aboard the Titanic, Victorian England and the Queen's coronation before finally getting a glimpse of himself in a mirror? On sub thought that came out of this for me, is maybe John Hurt's Doctor sank the Titanic? But I'm not sure on that one.

    However when facing the 'consciousness' the Doctor pleads that he was sorry he couldn't save "your world, I tried but I couldn't save any of them I'm sorry". This tells us that Gallifrey was not the only planet destroyed in the Time War and that other species suffered. While he never hides what he did in the Time War he is deeply ashamed of it. The quote from John Hurt and Matt Smith is "What I did I did in the name of Peace and Sanity", "But not in the name of the Doctor".

    When the human doctor wiped out Davros and the Daleks and committed genocide on the species the real Doctor (David Tennant) was furious with him (remember he tried to save Davros). I am pretty confident the Doctor's secret will be ending the Time War, we know he did it, but we also know he isn't proud of it, deeply ashamed and regrets it every day of his life. What else could John Hurt's Doctor do that is not something the Doctor would do but in the name of Peace and Sanity? It has to be destroying the two mighty races (including his own) and many other planets in The Last Great Time War. Because that is something that needed to happen for peace and sanity, but the Doctor isn't known for committing genocide and wiping out entire species.

    Let's be clear on something here. We don't know for definite that John Hurt is what the doctor has been running from his whole life. All we know is that he is his secret, and that according to Dorium he has been running from "the question" all of his life.

    There has been subtle hints that we may learn more from the Time War. Clara is obviously remembering the Journey to the Centre of the Tardis and may remember (sub-consciously may I add) what she read in "The History of Time War" book. John Hurt is seen dressed almost like a warrior in the pictures we have seen with some sort of ammunition or armory around his body and his leather jacket is almost identical to the same worn down one we see Eccleston wearing in his Doctor Who debut. Yes, the Time War is not the Doctor's secret but we know it still hurts him and we don't know the details, of exactly how he ended it. For me it all points to us finding out more about the Time War in the 50th Anniversary.
  • Jolly JesterJolly Jester Posts: 225
    Forum Member
    Just to throw another log on the fire. Could John Hurt be be a regenerated "Human Doc 10"?
    Could explain the reason 10 and Rose are in 50th.
    Just a thought
  • be more pacificbe more pacific Posts: 19,061
    Forum Member
    ✭✭
    I dunno that storyline would've been quite a significant role whereas Eccleston said the role didn't amount to much which is why he turned it down.
    Where and when did Chris say any such thing? There was a near-libelous thread on DS which made this claim last week, but that was all gossip and rumour.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 4,138
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    I dunno that storyline would've been quite a significant role whereas Eccleston said the role didn't amount to much which is why he turned it down.

    did he not say he didn't like the way it developed his character?
  • mikey1980mikey1980 Posts: 3,647
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    Just to throw another log on the fire. Could John Hurt be be a regenerated "Human Doc 10"?
    Could explain the reason 10 and Rose are in 50th.
    Just a thought

    No. It appears that none of Rose's scenes are with Tennant, indeed that she has a relatively small role.

    Also the story of Rose and human wasn't exactly the most popular storyline since Doctor Who returned in 2005. I doubt Moffat would want to revisit it.
  • macman11macman11 Posts: 339
    Forum Member
    Actually, thinking about it - does anyone what the Time War was supposed to be about or what sparked it off? I don't think they've ever actually given any information on this.

    All I have grasped so far is that the Time Lords went to war with the Daleks (why all of a sudden after being enemies for so long, I have no idea). Why is it called the "Time War"?
  • James FrederickJames Frederick Posts: 53,184
    Forum Member
    macman11 wrote: »
    Actually, thinking about it - does anyone what the Time War was supposed to be about or what sparked it off? I don't think they've ever actually given any information on this.

    All I have grasped so far is that the Time Lords went to war with the Daleks (why all of a sudden after being enemies for so long, I have no idea). Why is it called the "Time War"?

    As both of them have Time Travel technology I assume the war took place all over Space & Time
  • Mr1CroftMr1Croft Posts: 18
    Forum Member
    The Time Lords (being the all knowing all seeing creatures of the Universe) believed that in one timeline the Daleks would destroy all of living creation. During the thousand year war they sent the Fourth Doctor to Skaro to try to avoid the creation of the Daleks, although he initially failed he set them back by about a millenia which lead the Daleks to declare war against the Time Lords.

    A 'Time War' is usually described as a war where either time is used a weapon or a war that is forever ongoing (e.g. two species fighting forever on end), the 'Last Great Time War' as it is known, is not clear which but rather accepted as a combination of both. Obviously it was initiated by the Time Lords using Time as a weapon to try to stop the creation of the Daleks, but it was also a war that was forever expanding throughout time. It is not known for how long the Time War lasted and according to the Doctor (Last of the Time Lords) it went on for eternity, time lords and daleks dieing over and over again.

    As said above it is widely accepted that the fourth doctor indirectly started the Time War, even if acting on his own species instructions. We also know that the Time War ended because the Doctor used the moment, which is said to be a replica of the De-mat gun but manipulated with the Great Key so that the medusa cascade could be closed, but rather than removing one individual from time and space the doctor modified it to remove millions. It was this weapon that we are told ended the war and killed both the Time Lords and the Daleks and removed Gallifrey from the universe. It is said that when the moment was used Gallifrey burned silently like a sun, causing a huge shockwave which destroyed many other planets.

    But we don't know how the Doctor escaped (with his Tardis in full tact when 10 million were destroyed). We know a little bit about why the Doctor ended it, we know that Rassillon as President was planning to destroy all of creation and turn the Time Lords into mere masters of consciousness.

    The Sontarons say that according to Legend the Doctor lead a million Time Lord Solidiers into battle, really? Did the Doctor we know and love really fight in the Time War? Did he really kill Daleks? Its hard to imagine and perhaps why SM has created this John Hurt Doctor.

    Gallifrey was placed into a permanent state of the Time War throughout its entire timeline making it impossible to go back (thus Time-Locked), whether this is a result of a Time War (e.g. A war that happens throughout time), or a result of the Doctor's final actions is unknown.

    There are still missing pieces of the Time War, for example we don't know about Rassillon's rise to becoming president (again), we don't know what had driven him and the council to consider destroying all of creation and we don't know why the doctor was imprisoned (during which time he forged his plan to capture the Great key and replicate the De-mat gun). Which is why I think the 50th anniversary will answer these questions for us.Especially now we know there is a book inside the Tardis which is 'The History of the Time War'.
  • sebbie3000sebbie3000 Posts: 5,188
    Forum Member
    ea91 wrote: »
    Yes, the "part of the Doctor". :p

    No. He doesn't add the 'the'. You've added that, and that changes the meaning of his statement.
  • CorwinCorwin Posts: 16,588
    Forum Member
    ✭✭
    Mr1Croft wrote: »
    . We also know that the Time War ended because the Doctor used the moment, which is said to be a replica of the De-mat gun but manipulated with the Great Key so that the medusa cascade could be closed,

    All that's been stated in the TV Show is that the Doctor used "The Moment".


    The stuff about the Moment being a Demat Gun is from (I think) a comic.
  • claire2281claire2281 Posts: 17,283
    Forum Member
    ✭✭
    If Hurt is basically a 'created' Doctor who was a contemporary of the 8th Doctor that could explain why he dresses as he does.

    His style is similar to the 8th Doctor because that's the Doctor he was formed from and the 9th Doctor took that jacket after he defeated Hurt and regenerated as a reminder of what he'd done. Perhaps even a mark of respect for an adversary he understood and sympathised with.
  • macman11macman11 Posts: 339
    Forum Member
    Mr1Croft wrote: »
    The Time Lords (being the all knowing all seeing creatures of the Universe) believed that in one timeline the Daleks would destroy all of living creation. During the thousand year war they sent the Fourth Doctor to Skaro to try to avoid the creation of the Daleks, although he initially failed he set them back by about a millenia which lead the Daleks to declare war against the Time Lords.

    A 'Time War' is usually described as a war where either time is used a weapon or a war that is forever ongoing (e.g. two species fighting forever on end), the 'Last Great Time War' as it is known, is not clear which but rather accepted as a combination of both. Obviously it was initiated by the Time Lords using Time as a weapon to try to stop the creation of the Daleks, but it was also a war that was forever expanding throughout time. It is not known for how long the Time War lasted and according to the Doctor (Last of the Time Lords) it went on for eternity, time lords and daleks dieing over and over again.

    As said above it is widely accepted that the fourth doctor indirectly started the Time War, even if acting on his own species instructions. We also know that the Time War ended because the Doctor used the moment, which is said to be a replica of the De-mat gun but manipulated with the Great Key so that the medusa cascade could be closed, but rather than removing one individual from time and space the doctor modified it to remove millions. It was this weapon that we are told ended the war and killed both the Time Lords and the Daleks and removed Gallifrey from the universe. It is said that when the moment was used Gallifrey burned silently like a sun, causing a huge shockwave which destroyed many other planets.

    But we don't know how the Doctor escaped (with his Tardis in full tact when 10 million were destroyed). We know a little bit about why the Doctor ended it, we know that Rassillon as President was planning to destroy all of creation and turn the Time Lords into mere masters of consciousness.

    The Sontarons say that according to Legend the Doctor lead a million Time Lord Solidiers into battle, really? Did the Doctor we know and love really fight in the Time War? Did he really kill Daleks? Its hard to imagine and perhaps why SM has created this John Hurt Doctor.

    Gallifrey was placed into a permanent state of the Time War throughout its entire timeline making it impossible to go back (thus Time-Locked), whether this is a result of a Time War (e.g. A war that happens throughout time), or a result of the Doctor's final actions is unknown.

    There are still missing pieces of the Time War, for example we don't know about Rassillon's rise to becoming president (again), we don't know what had driven him and the council to consider destroying all of creation and we don't know why the doctor was imprisoned (during which time he forged his plan to capture the Great key and replicate the De-mat gun). Which is why I think the 50th anniversary will answer these questions for us.Especially now we know there is a book inside the Tardis which is 'The History of the Time War'.

    That was a great read. Thanks.
  • be more pacificbe more pacific Posts: 19,061
    Forum Member
    ✭✭
    bugloss wrote: »
    did he not say he didn't like the way it developed his character?
    Another Christopher Eccleston "quote" with no source. Where and when did he say that?
  • ea91ea91 Posts: 2,363
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    sebbie3000 wrote: »
    No. He doesn't add the 'the'. You've added that, and that changes the meaning of his statement.

    I know I added it, you can tell that from where I put the quotation marks. So where is this statement in full? How do you know what he meant? I'm pretty sure "The Name of the Doctor" more than clarified what he meant, but we can wait until November if you like.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 11
    Forum Member
    ea91 wrote: »
    Well Hurt's Doctor could have made the promise and broken it too.


    Was the promise not to speak his name? One Doctor broke this promise and spilled his beans all over River Song.:eek:
  • JohnnyForgetJohnnyForget Posts: 24,061
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    There's gonna be six more months of this! ;)
  • sebbie3000sebbie3000 Posts: 5,188
    Forum Member
    ea91 wrote: »
    I know I added it, you can tell that from where I put the quotation marks. So where is this statement in full? How do you know what he meant? I'm pretty sure "The Name of the Doctor" more than clarified what he meant, but we can wait until November if you like.

    I don't necessarily know what he meant. But all quotes I can find are definitely without the 'the' in front. I can't find his original quote right now, but all media relating it states he playing 'part of the Doctor'. They are very careful to not do what you have done and twist the meaning of his quote.

    But as I don't know, neither do you. And I'm not trying to add anything to make it mean what I want it to mean, only taking it as it has been reported.

    Whether you turn out to be right or not, you are still adjusting it to make it fit what you think will happen, and that's misrepresentation..
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 357
    Forum Member
    zzen wrote: »
    Was the promise not to speak his name? One Doctor broke this promise and spilled his beans all over River Song.:eek:

    Hahahaha



    I'm such a child sometimes.
Sign In or Register to comment.