Holocaust Denial

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  • cosmocosmo Posts: 26,840
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    That's what I thought the issue was.
    It seems though the holocaust always seems to overshadow the many other losses during the war, there was plenty of genocide going on with the Russians.

    Of course there was.

    I think the reason holocaust denial is such a hot topic is because it was and still is quite often said with an ulterior motive by anti-semitics - President Wheresmedinnerdad of Iran being an prime recent example.
  • LiparusLiparus Posts: 4,721
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    The Vixen wrote: »
    Nick Griffin the horrendous BNP leader is one. It just exposes him for the vile individual that he is, it exposes him for being devoid from reality.

    Let the moron and morons like him spout and expose themselves.

    Of course it shouldn't be illegal it makes the morons far easier to spot.

    Nick Griffin has appeared to deny the holocaust in the past as a means of defending or at the very least making Hitlers crimes less than what they were. Had Hitler/Germany fought purely a territorial war such as in the first world war and not committed the crimes then the war and history would have a different outcome.

    The Iranian regime currently denies the holocaust. Not in support of German history, but because they feel Isreal continues to use the holocaust as a means of making excuses to do what it does.

    Most of the extermination camps were in Poland - out of the way of Germany. But lets not forget that the holocaust as we know it evolved during the course of the war. Indeed the final solution laid down at the Wannsee conference in Jauary 1942 occurred (with hindsight) after the tide had turned against Germany.
  • Si_CreweSi_Crewe Posts: 40,202
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    Resonance wrote: »
    Having a different view on history should not be a crime, so no I don't think it should land you in jail. Plus I'm a fan a free speech.

    Criminalising it also adds fuel to the fire. It makes some people think that there maybe something in the claims that the holocaust didn't happen.

    This.

    When you respond to crap like this you only serve to legitimise it.
    Discussion of the subject is best met with a ":rolleyes:".
  • cosmocosmo Posts: 26,840
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    Liparus wrote: »
    Nick Griffin has appeared to deny the holocaust in the past as a means of defending or at the very least making Hitlers crimes less than what they were. Had Hitler/Germany fought purely a territorial war such as in the first world war and not committed the crimes then the war and history would have a different outcome.

    The Iranian regime currently denies the holocaust. Not in support of German history, but because they feel Isreal continues to use the holocaust as a means of making excuses to do what it does.

    Most of the extermination camps were in Poland - out of the way of Germany. But lets not forget that the holocaust as we know it evolved during the course of the war. Indeed the final solution laid down at the Wannsee conference in Jauary 1942 occurred (with hindsight) after the tide had turned against Germany.

    The conference was held because Nazi Germany had a problem that was a double-edged sword. Firstly they hated Jews - and secondly they found themselves with tens of millions of them that nobody else wanted. They weren't allowed to exist in Nazi society.

    What to do with millions of 'sub-humans'?
  • LiparusLiparus Posts: 4,721
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    cosmo wrote: »
    The conference was held because Nazi Germany had a problem that was a double-edged sword. Firstly they hated Jews - and secondly they found themselves with tens of millions of them that nobody else wanted. They weren't allowed to exist in Nazi society.

    What to do with millions of 'sub-humans'?

    Before the conference they had begun extermination - by shooting - think Kiev in September 1941. They were fully aware of the numbers they would be dealing with - the conference was to decide a more effiecient method.

    Before the war they had deported unwanted people to other european countries - only for said people to find themselves under occupation later on.

    What strikes me as more insane than the exterminations of 1941 - 1943 is that they continued even when they the war was totally unwinnable.
  • cosmocosmo Posts: 26,840
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    Liparus wrote: »
    Before the conference they had begun extermination - by shooting - think Kiev in September 1941. They were fully aware of the numbers they would be dealing with - the conference was to decide a more effiecient method.

    Before the war they had deported unwanted people to other european countries - only for said people to find themselves under occupation later on.

    What strikes me as more insane than the exterminations of 1941 - 1943 is that they continued even when they the war was totally unwinnable.

    Of course they had already started it, you are quite right - but it was apparently a waste of ammunition and not good for morale.

    And of course they carried on the killing even when the war looked lost. They didn't decide to carry out these mass exterminations on a whim. By 1941 it was a policy at the very heart of Nazi ideology. They did it because, quite incredibly, they believed it was the right thing to do.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 22,736
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    cosmo wrote: »
    Of course they had already started it, you are quite right - but it was apparently a waste of ammunition and not good for morale.

    And of course they carried on the killing even when the war looked lost. They didn't decide things things on a whim. By 1941 it was a policy at the very heart of Nazi ideology. They did it because, quite incredibly, they believed it was the right thing to do.

    And the SS members still alive STILL think it was the right thing to do, still brainwashed after all these years

    Well the ones on the documentaries did.
  • BarbellaBarbella Posts: 5,417
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    Resonance wrote: »
    Having a different view on history should not be a crime, so no I don't think it should land you in jail. Plus I'm a fan a free speech.

    Criminalising it also adds fuel to the fire. It makes some people think that there maybe something in the claims that the holocaust didn't happen.

    I agree.

    It is far better to put forward a cogent argument backed up with evidence to counter the deniers, than just throw them in jail for disagreeing.

    IMO, the prohibition of discussion and debate could do more damage and create more resentment than allowing dissent.
    History is always revised and reinterpreted and I do not believe any subject should be off limits. After all, there is far too much information in the public domain in regard to the holocaust for any denier theory to stand the test of academic scrutiny.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 17,470
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    Oddly enough, this has been a subject that's been on my mind for the last few days, after re-reading Art Spiegelman's superlative 'Maus' - a comic book on the subject, which I'd thoroughly recommend for a moving and human view of the whole awful story.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 343
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    Unfotunately the people who deny the holocaust believe that at the Wannsee conference the plan was to just 'evacuate' and not 'exterminate' the Jews. Unfortunately years before this the plan to wipeout Jews had already been put into some kind of effect.

    The wannsee conference for all intents and purposes was to work out a slicker/easier method of carrying out the annihalation, rather than just shooting them which was not cost effective.
  • LiparusLiparus Posts: 4,721
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    cosmo wrote: »
    Of course they had already started it, you are quite right - but it was apparently a waste of ammunition and not good for morale.

    And of course they carried on the killing even when the war looked lost. They didn't decide to carry out these mass exterminations on a whim. By 1941 it was a policy at the very heart of Nazi ideology. They did it because, quite incredibly, they believed it was the right thing to do.

    They did and yet they must've known it was wrong - why try to hide it otherwise. Hitler was furious when I think Majdanek was captured intact by the Russians in 1944.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 17,470
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    I think deniers should be sentenced to a visit to the Auschwitz camps to see for themselves. I challenge anyone to visit those grim places and come away still denying what took place there...
  • -Sid--Sid- Posts: 29,365
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    cosmo wrote: »
    I believe Nick Griffin has since apologised for his denial of the holocaust and now readily agrees that it did happen.

    More fool those who take Nick Griffin's apology and sudden change of mind seriously.

    It was a PR stunt to make himself seem more electable.

    An ex BNP councillor for Stoke left the party claiming anti-semitism was still rife amongst senior members.
  • Flamethrower100Flamethrower100 Posts: 14,106
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    Over the Xmas period there have been plenty of programmes about WWII. I never really knew much about the war and found them very interesting, especially the series about Auschwitz and the "final solution". It was very upsetting, it actually had me in tears. I have been reading up on it on the internet since.

    Some people deny the holocaust and in other European countries it lands them in jail. As ridiculous as it is and horrible it is to deny it, should it really be punishable by jail? There is talk of them crminalising it in England, surely this would be the wrong thing to do, or would it?

    You should see some of the comments on youtube. Anything to do with Anne frank, or Nazi Germany, or the holocaust. And there are loads of disgusting comments about how it was all a lie. Or worse. And the sad thing is they sound serious. Not just wind ups.

    Yes I think people should go to jail for denying it publicly. If someone feels that way, then they should keep it to themselves.
  • cosmocosmo Posts: 26,840
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    Liparus wrote: »
    They did and yet they must've known it was wrong - why try to hide it otherwise. Hitler was furious when I think Majdanek was captured intact by the Russians in 1944.

    They didn't believe it was wrong.

    They knew, however, that their enemies would hang them for it.

    That's why they tried to hide it.
  • JamesC81JamesC81 Posts: 14,792
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    so if they introduce jail for holocaust denial what other historical events will they send people to jail for saying they did or didnt happen?

    "you believe the moon landings were faked? go directly to jail (on the new fancy jail we set up on the moon)"
  • The VixenThe Vixen Posts: 9,829
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    Liparus wrote: »
    Nick Griffin has appeared to deny the holocaust in the past as a means of defending or at the very least making Hitlers crimes less than what they were.


    Snip
    .

    Actually he was on the radio around a year ago and asked why he held those views, he said he'd change his mind as he'd done some reading and now accepts it was true.

    What a freakin idiot that man is. WHy didn't he do his reading before he denied the holocaust.

    The reality is that he knew being a holocaust denier made him unelectable, he wanted to be electable so to the public he'd changed his mind because he'd read more.

    If anyone believes a word he says wellll..... i do despair.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 17,470
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    JamesC81 wrote: »
    so if they introduce jail for holocaust denial what other historical events will they send people to jail for saying they did or didnt happen?

    "you believe the moon landings were faked? go directly to jail (on the new fancy jail we set up on the moon)"

    How many innocent people went to their deaths prematurely during the moon landings, then?
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 22,736
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    The Vixen wrote: »
    Actually he was on the radio around a year ago and asked why he held those views, he said he'd change his mind as he'd done some reading and now accepts it was true.

    What a freakin idiot that man is. WHy didn't he do his reading before he denied the holocaust.

    The reality is that he knew being a holocaust denier made him unelectable, he wanted to be electable so to the public he'd changed his mind because he'd read more.

    If anyone believes a word he says wellll..... i do despair.

    It is a good job that this subject is covered widely and in depth in schools, without such emphasis persons could follow the beliefs of Mr griffin et al.
  • The VixenThe Vixen Posts: 9,829
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    You should see some of the comments on youtube. Anything to do with Anne frank, or Nazi Germany, or the holocaust. And there are loads of disgusting comments about how it was all a lie. Or worse. And the sad thing is they sound serious. Not just wind ups.

    Yes I think people should go to jail for denying it publicly. If someone feels that way, then they should keep it to themselves.

    While I abhor their thinking and pity their lonely brain cell, did the people who fought in the war not fight for freedom of speech no matter what that is?

    I'd rather know who these people are, we are safer with them outed.
  • The VixenThe Vixen Posts: 9,829
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    It is a good job that this subject is covered widely and in depth in schools, without such emphasis persons could follow the beliefs of Mr griffin et al.

    I'd like to hope that our children have more intelligence than to follow the likes of Mr Griffin.

    What a frightening thought!
  • Si_CreweSi_Crewe Posts: 40,202
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    horns wrote: »
    How many innocent people went to their deaths prematurely during the moon landings, then?

    The "crime" of denying the holocaust is, I assume, to dishonour the people that died.
    To deny the moon landings or subscribe to various 9/11 conspiracies makes a person equally guitly of dishonouring innocent people who died during those events.

    SSDD.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 525
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    I have a question regarding World War 2 and the Holocaust.

    When is it an acceptable time for people to move on from the affect it had on a race/religion of people.

    Is it 50, 100, 150 or even 200 years?

    I have a reason why I asked this question and I will post my reason at a later stage.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 17,470
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    Love_able wrote: »
    I have a question regarding World War 2 and the Holocaust.

    When is it an acceptable time for people to move on from the affect it had on a race/religion of people.

    Is it 50, 100, 150 or even 200 years?

    I have a reason why I asked this question and I will post my reason at a later stage.

    I'd rather not respond until you've made your motives a little clearer, then.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 17,470
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    Si_Crewe wrote: »
    The "crime" of denying the holocaust is, I assume, to dishonour the people that died.
    To deny the moon landings or subscribe to various 9/11 conspiracies makes a person equally guitly of dishonouring innocent people who died during those events.

    SSDD.

    So how many innocent civilians died as a result of the moon landings?
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